[Yethal]

It is interesting ofc. But at the moment, knowing that virtual surround is entirely possible in software without any noticeable latency, I'll shun all proprietary developments that locks us to their products. Luckily the latest developments in Virtual Reality audio might save us from this mess.

Razer surround has latency and sounds really bad. OOYH costs 150 usd for single PC license so it's the very definition of a proprietary product.

 

[Hunched]

Am I correct in saying the Creative Sound Blaster G5 requires software to use 7.1? I'm having trouble finding a definite answer.
It looks like the "BlasterX Acoustic Engine Pro Software" is mandatory.
So it does process the 5.1/7.1 on your PC anyway before sending it off to the Sound Blaster G5?
Looks like I'm definitely not getting that then.
It's literally just a DAC/AMP + a license for their surround sound software, without the virtualization software on your PC it can't do surround?
The Sennheiser amps win here:
"There’s no need to tab out of the game into onscreen software as the GSX 1000 and GSX 1200 PRO handle all sound processing on their internal chipsets rather on the computer’s CPU."
 
Also is SBX currently the only surround tech that allows control of reverb? I've only ever seen SBX listed with percentages, such as 33%, 66%, 100% etc in audio comparisons.
 
According to the product page, Sennheiser's GSX 1000 and GSX 1200 also allow this.
"it is possible to set Reverberation levels to change how the user feels in physical spaces of the game, and even increase the surround speakers for back and front speaker focus."
Which means it's the only other binaural method that has this level of customization, if I'm correct in anything I'm saying.
 
I truly wish there were more information, or an audio sample we could listen to so we could experience what Sennheiser is offering.
I mean Creative has YouTube videos showcasing their SBX surround for anyone to listen, that's the smart thing to do, marketing...
 
Anyways, the GSX 1000/GSX 1200 are 100% driver and software free with customization I believe only SBX has had up to this point.
Are there any Creative products capable of providing 7.1 without mandatory drivers or software installed on the PC?

 

[BlueNinja0]

Razer surround has latency and sounds really bad. OOYH costs 150 usd for single PC license so it's the very definition of a proprietary product.

 
I meant proprietary hardware. My bad. Hardware that is usually completely unrelated to the virtual surround effect.
 

Originally Posted by Hunched /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
So it does process the 5.1/7.1 on your PC anyway before sending it off to the Sound Blaster G5?
Looks like I'm definitely not getting that then.
It's literally just a DAC/AMP + a license for their surround sound software, without the virtualization software on your PC it can't do surround?
The Sennheiser amps win here:
"There’s no need to tab out of the game into onscreen software as the GSX 1000 and GSX 1200 PRO handle all sound processing on their internal chipsets rather on the computer’s CPU."

 
Unfortunately yeah, most products do the virtualization on the CPU but you need to buy their hardware and have it inside your PC to be able to use the license to use it. That's why there are hacks online to make Dolby Surround work on unauthorized Realtek sound chips.
EDIT: Creative X-Fi MB3 seems to be the first solution I tried that works without any specific sound card and without latency, but it still costs $30. The problem is that it only supports outputting virtual surround (a 2.0 signal) to a 7.1 or 5.1 surround card... which means the ODAC (2.0 device) is out of the question. It's a stupid limitation without explanation.
 
Does the Sennheiser product not really need a driver? If so that is really awesome. It also means more compatibility among various systems.
 
As for the reverb options, these are the only things I have available on X-Fi MB3:

 

[Corundum]

   
EDIT: Creative X-Fi MB3 seems to be the first solution I tried that works without any specific sound card and without latency, but it still costs $30. The problem is that it only supports outputting virtual surround (a 2.0 signal) to a 7.1 or 5.1 surround card... which means the ODAC (2.0 device) is out of the question. It's a stupid limitation without explanation.

 
The requirement of setting your device to 5.1/7.1 is because if your source doesn't see surround channels in the playback device, it won't send any surround data.  MB3 is intercepting that 5.1/7.1 signal and processing it into a 2.0 signal before it actually reaches the hardware playback device, but your source doesn't know that.  I really wish MB3 provided something like a virtual 7.1 sound card and virtual audio cable that lets you send the post-processed 2.0 signal to any playback device you wanted.  There may be a free solution using VB-cable, but I can't test it as I am using the MB2 suite that came with my mobo which only works if I output to the onboard sound.
 
I'm curious to know, when you use MB3, are you plugging your headphones directly into your sound card, or are you piping it from your sound card to your ODAC with stereo mix or an equivalent solution?  If it's the latter, are you experiencing any latency between the sound card output and the ODAC output?

 

[BlueNinja0]

   
The requirement of setting your device to 5.1/7.1 is because if your source doesn't see surround channels in the playback device, it won't send any surround data.  MB3 is intercepting that 5.1/7.1 signal and processing it into a 2.0 signal before it actually reaches the hardware playback device, but your source doesn't know that.  I really wish MB3 provided something like a virtual 7.1 sound card and virtual audio cable that lets you send the post-processed 2.0 signal to any playback device you wanted.  There may be a free solution using VB-cable, but I can't test it as I am using the MB2 suite that came with my mobo which only works if I output to the onboard sound.
 
I'm curious to know, when you use MB3, are you plugging your headphones directly into your sound card, or are you piping it from your sound card to your ODAC with stereo mix or an equivalent solution?  If it's the latter, are you experiencing any latency between the sound card output and the ODAC output?

 
The requirement doesn't make sense because the MB3 is already in itself a virtual sound card/virtual audio cable. It ads a new device to the Windows playback devices and it is this virtual device (which obviously should always show up as 7.1) that receives the game sound and then outputs it through the other sound device you choose in the MB3 application. That's why I don't see a reason for this limitation. I don't know why the MB3 virtual device transforms into a 2.0 device just because I choose the ODAC.
 
Right now I'm plugging my headphones directly into the motherboard yes, but I tried previously (not with MB3) with a "stereo mix" equivalent forwarding to the ODAC and it added a considerable amount of latency. I did a test and we actually measured it. Check out this post:
http://forum.symthic.com/battlefield-4-technical-discussion/5855-improving-bf4-s-positional-audio-with-profsave-profile/index15.html#post310479
 
The increased latency was audible and annoying enough that I didn't want to use it, but it might be ok to you. Also, I think Windows 10 made many improvements in the audio latency department so it might not be so bad now. That previous test was on Windows 8.
 
My audio files are a few posts back in that thread.

 

[Corundum]

   
Right now I'm plugging my headphones directly into the motherboard yes, but I tried previously (not with MB3) with a "stereo mix" equivalent forwarding to the ODAC and it added a considerable amount of latency. I did a test and we actually measured it. Check out this post:
http://forum.symthic.com/battlefield-4-technical-discussion/5855-improving-bf4-s-positional-audio-with-profsave-profile/index15.html#post310479
 
The increased latency was audible and annoying enough that I didn't want to use it, but it might be ok to you. Also, I think Windows 10 made many improvements in the audio latency department so it might not be so bad now. That previous test was on Windows 8.

 
I do experience about 100 ms latency with stereo mix, but I don't usually play games that require twitch reactions to positional cues, so it doesn't matter.  However, if you're willing to try something: VB-Audio Virtual Cable (http://vb-audio.pagesperso-orange.fr/Cable/) is free and is configurable to various latency thresholds, which may allow you a lower latency all-digital pathway to your ODAC for virtual surround.
 
Your pipeline would probably be MB3 -> VB-Cable -> ODAC.  As long as you configure your VB-Cable playback device to be 7.1 MB3 shouldn't complain.

 

[BlueNinja0]

   
I do experience about 100 ms latency with stereo mix, but I don't usually play games that require twitch reactions to positional cues, so it doesn't matter.  However, if you're willing to try something: VB-Audio Virtual Cable (http://vb-audio.pagesperso-orange.fr/Cable/) is free and is configurable to various latency thresholds, which may allow you a lower latency all-digital pathway to your ODAC for virtual surround.
 
Your pipeline would probably be MB3 -> VB-Cable -> ODAC.  As long as you configure your VB-Cable playback device to be 7.1 MB3 shouldn't complain.

Unfortunately I have already tried it and it doesn't work. For whatever reason MB3 doesn't detect the VB-Cable and doesn't list it in the possible output devices.
It was my last hope for a clear digital path...
 
EDIT: Another reason I shied away from using the "stereo mix" path (WhatUHear in the case of Creative sound cards) was that I've read here in this thread that it degrades the sound quality, even though I didn't notice it.

 

[Hunched]

All this latency talk almost makes me not want to try an external soundcard. 
Sounds like internal ones are superior with latency, unsurprisingly. 
 
Things can never be simple and perfect can they? 
15+ types of surround sound, 1000+ different products using them. 
If only developers implemented headphone surround into the games themselves 

Which some are doing, like Dolby Atmos in Overwatch. Also apparently a lot of VR games will have native support.
 
We're all trying to solve a problem that wouldn't exist if everyone else cared about audio as much as we do.

 

[BlueNinja0]

  All this latency talk almost makes me not want to try an external soundcard. 
Sounds like internal ones are superior with latency, unsurprisingly. 
 
Things can never be simple and perfect can they? 
15+ types of surround sound, 1000+ different products using them. 
If only developers implemented headphone surround into the games themselves 

Which some are doing, like Dolby Atmos in Overwatch. Also apparently a lot of VR games will have native support.
 
We're all trying to solve a problem that wouldn't exist if everyone else cared about audio as much as we do.

I know what you mean. It's frustrating.
The problem with developers implementing headphone surround in the games is that it would still not be a perfect solution, because some games would have it, some wouldn't, some would have a bad implementation, etc.
I think the upcoming of VR is going to save us though, since surround virtualization is essential there.
 
By the way, where did you get the info that external soundcards are worse with latency? Are there numbers around? I made a few measurements myself on BF4 and it didn't seem bad at all. It's a few posts back.

 

[Hunched]

 
I know what you mean. It's frustrating.
The problem with developers implementing headphone surround in the games is that it would still not be a perfect solution, because some games would have it, some wouldn't, some would have a bad implementation, etc.
I think the upcoming of VR is going to save us though, since surround virtualization is essential there.
 
By the way, where did you get the info that external soundcards are worse with latency? Are there numbers around? I made a few measurements myself on BF4 and it didn't seem bad at all. It's a few posts back.

I haven't looked too much into the latency thing, there was post a few pages back to an article and I googled it and read some forums and articles for like 10 minutes.
Also you guys are talking about it.
It makes sense that anything plugged directly into your motherboard with PCI-E would be faster than over USB.
USB latency can be an issue with all sorts of peripherals, some peoples PC's have it worse than others for numerous possible reasons with their setup.
PCI-E is just a superior connection.
 
As long as I can lets say fire a gun in a game and not notice any weird disconnect from my click to the sound registering in my headphones, I'm fine even if it's measurably slower.
Most products should be fine in reality, any decent audio company making external soundcards would test latency and do whatever they can with processing or whatever to make it indistinguishable, or so I hope and expect.
Especially if a company is making gaming marketed audio products, if you don't test latency on gaming focused products you're a terrible company and doing your job wrong.
 
The GSX 1000/1200 will probably be fine, and I'm worried for no reason.
I'm used to expecting the worst of possible scenarios, I should be more optimistic but then it's such a let down when things do fail to deliver. 

 

 

[BlueNinja0]

Originally Posted by Hunched /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
It makes sense that anything plugged directly into your motherboard with PCI-E would be faster than over USB.
USB latency can be an issue with all sorts of peripherals, some peoples PC's have it worse than others for numerous possible reasons with their setup.
PCI-E is just a superior connection.

 
That's true. But don't forget that driver latency has a bigger impact than the connection type. It probably doesn't happen, but it's possible that a Creative or Realtek driver might have more latency than a driver-less universal DAC.

 

[Typo]

Originally Posted by Hunched /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
some peoples PC's have it worse than others for numerous possible reasons with their setup.

Mostly a weak CPU issue at that point. Unless you are still using USB 2.0 slots because they are significantly slower than the new 3.0 and 3.1 slots.
 

1. USB 2.0 = 60 MB/s
2. USB 3.0 = 625 MB/s
3. USB 3.1 = 1.21 GB/s
4. eSATA = 750 MB/s

 

[BlueNinja0]

 
Mostly a weak CPU issue at that point. Unless you are still using USB 2.0 slots because they are significantly slower than the new 3.0 and 3.1 slots.
 

1. USB 2.0 = 60 MB/s
2. USB 3.0 = 625 MB/s
3. USB 3.1 = 1.21 GB/s
4. eSATA = 750 MB/s

 
The bandwidth of the USB connection might not be at all related with the latency. The USB DACs are USB 2.0 devices and the information is sent to the DAC in a constant data stream. The actual bandwidth has no impact here. Though I might be wrong.
Anyone wanna test a 2.0 VS 3.0 USB latency to their DACs?

 

[Typo]

   
The bandwidth of the USB connection might not be at all related with the latency. The USB DACs are USB 2.0 devices and the information is sent to the DAC in a constant data stream. The actual bandwidth has no impact here. Though I might be wrong.
Anyone wanna test a 2.0 VS 3.0 USB latency to their DACs?

I've never actually tested this myself but would be interested to see an answer.

I don't have exact numbers, but while playing Guitar Hero my audio lag compensation is almost at 200ms with optical > DAC > AMP > Headphones. I'm almost interested in buying a USB DAC to see if it would remove the audio lag. GH would be a perfect test for this as well.

 

[BlueNinja0]

   GH would be a perfect test for this as well.

 
That would be a "by ear" test. Why not this more scientific method?
http://forum.symthic.com/battlefield-4-technical-discussion/5855-improving-bf4-s-positional-audio-with-profsave-profile/index14.html#post310408
 
By placing a microphone in a position where it catches both the sound of your mouse click and the sound of your headphones through your DAC you can measure, with nanosecond accuracy, the latency from click to game sound by using an audio software that can plot the sound wave in a chart. With this we can compare the latency of any audio card, USB or not.
 
Anyone wanna give it a shot?