[maverickronin]

The T1s seem to have gotten less bright, or at least have large sample variation.  All the T1s I heard at canjam last year (where everybody and their brother brought an HD800 and a T1 so I heard them on all kinds of stuff) were brighter than the HD800s I heard.  They really pulled ahead in brightness with the massive "Beyer spike" in the high treble.  I find it very annoying in open 'phones since they always need more volume than closed phones.  I preferred the HD800 to the T1, but I didn't really like either of them...

 

[wind016]

The T1 is not on the bright side of neutral. It is right out bright. Even with maverickronin's link of the more treble tamed T1, the treble has a 10 db bump in treble over the upper mids. The other link is a 15 db bump.
 
The bump is wide enough and emphasized enough that you can not neutralize it with EQ without some serious loss of detail. If it was on the bright side of neutral, EQing to neutral would be a sinch.

 

[EddieE]

Well there's no point debating it as it comes down to tastes. For me despite a slightly metalic tone overall the T1 is the bright side of a generally realistic tone.
 
Its been suggested different models have slightly different FR but the one on the headroom chart has the peak at around 9,10k - Next to nothing is going on there in the average track.
 
EDIT - There is also the factor that a lot of DACs and amps begin to roll off before that point anyway which probably counteracts it a lot even if it was an issue. But seriously, what really happens at 10k in the average track but a bit of the range of sound of a snare drum, symbal or room noise?
 
Meanwhile the HD800s peak is at 5-6k where it is much more likely to be heard, and there is a big rise at 4k from a bit of a trough at 1k-3k - there is so much of the track going on between 1 and 3k there that you're going to adjust the volume for it, and then when those rises and peaks are hit BAM.
 
Ear Pain.
 
The T1 is much more sedate and even through that region and even drops off a little at the harsh 4,5k point where the HD800 is at its biggest peak. It's 9,10k peak on 99% of tracks is meaningless.
 

 

[logwed]

Quote:

The T1 is not on the bright side of neutral. It is right out bright. Even with maverickronin's link of the more treble tamed T1, the treble has a 10 db bump in treble over the upper mids. The other link is a 15 db bump.

Yeah, gotta agree with EddieE on this one, 10k hz is by no means "treble over the upper mids," it's a D# five octaves above middle C (aka an octave higher than a piccolo can play). That bump for the T1 is inconsequential for music listening, esoteric overtones aside.
 
On listening to the T1 (a visit, I don't own it), I also found it to be a little harsh for my tastes, but my weapon of choice at home is the HD650, so take it with a grain of salt. Keep in mind when reading this freq. response graphs that humans perceive higher pitches more easily/louder than lower, so the 1000hz-7,000hz (I suck at reading log scales, bear with me) range that looks flat on this chart may be perceived as having a very very prominent high range

 

[wind016]

Quote:

The T1 is much more sedate and even through that region and even drops off a little at the harsh 4,5k point where the HD800 is at its biggest peak. It's 9,10k peak on 99% of tracks is meaningless.
 
 

I completely disagree. The 9-10k peak is extremely unnatural. I never said the HD800 is neutral either so a comparison between the two is a bit irrelevant. I lack experience with the HD800 with my own music and equipment but when I heard it at a meet, it certainly did not sound neutral either.

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

Its been suggested different models have slightly different FR but the one on the headroom chart has the peak at around 9,10k - Next to nothing is going on there in the average track.
 
EDIT - There is also the factor that a lot of DACs and amps begin to roll off before that point anyway which probably counteracts it a lot even if it was an issue. But seriously, what really happens at 10k in the average track but a bit of the range of sound of a snare drum, symbal or room noise?
 
Meanwhile the HD800s peak is at 5-6k where it is much more likely to be heard, and there is a big rise at 4k from a bit of a trough at 1k-3k - there is so much of the track going on between 1 and 3k there that you're going to adjust the volume for it, and then when those rises and peaks are hit BAM.
 
Ear Pain.
 
The T1 is much more sedate and even through that region and even drops off a little at the harsh 4,5k point where the HD800 is at its biggest peak. It's 9,10k peak on 99% of tracks is meaningless.

There's all kinds of stuff going on at 9 and 10kHz.  It's not a ton, but its there and you can hear it.  Turn on the spectrum bars on foobar or something and watch while you're listening.
 
Also, what kind of screwed up DAC rolls off before 10kHz?  Even the NOS DACs I've seen measurements of or the ones that use the old fashioned digital filters don't usually start to roll off before 14 or 15kHz and might only be like 5dB down at 20kHz IIRC.
 
Both contribute to ear pair though.

 

[wind016]

 
Quote:

Yeah, gotta agree with EddieE on this one, 10k hz is by no means "treble over the upper mids," it's a D# five octaves above middle C (aka an octave higher than a piccolo can play). That bump for the T1 is inconsequential for music listening, esoteric overtones aside.
 
Sorry, I hear it completely differently. It is unbearable and unnatural. Anything but inconsequential. Voices are clearly etched by being recessed yet piercing. All instruments become treble instruments.
 
On listening to the T1 (a visit, I don't own it), I also found it to be a little harsh for my tastes, but my weapon of choice at home is the HD650, so take it with a grain of salt. Keep in mind when reading this freq. response graphs that humans perceive higher pitches more easily/louder than lower, so the 1000hz-7,000hz (I suck at reading log scales, bear with me) range that looks flat on this chart may be perceived as having a very very prominent high range
 
High frequencies in dynamic headphone drivers always cause more ear fatigue than speakers, but I'm not sure this is the case with electrostatic headphone drivers. Sound pressure is probably dispersed more evenly with electrostatic drivers. I still have to test out firsthand with my own music and equipment though.

 
 

 

[EddieE]

I don't know if lots roll off that early but I know some do. The HM801 starts to roll off at 3k, which is an awfully bad device I know but I saw some RMAAs of Audio GDs starting to roll at around 5k so it's not unheard of, in fact in the thread discussing those gds its suggested that this is pretty common and is a result of an oversampling filter: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/435290/rmaa-test-results-for-audio-gd-dac-19mk3-and-reference-1
 
I'll freely admit to not being the world's greatest DAC expert - or anything expert when it comes to audo. I'm still learning.
 
As to the main substance of my point - in music featuring instuments and human voices, very little goes on in that region. Pretty much just certain drums and percussion. Maybe its a different matter with electronic music.
 
One thing I'll say is the 5-6k peak of the HD800 is certainly more likely to play a part of the actual overall sound of the headphones, especially as you'll likely have the volume adjusted for the relatively sucked out 1-3k region.

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

I don't know if lots roll off that early but I know some do. The HM801 starts to roll off at 3k, which is an awfully bad device I know but I saw some RMAAs of Audio GDs starting to roll at around 5k so it's not unheard of, in fact in the thread discussing those gds its suggested that this is pretty common and is a result of an oversampling filter: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/435290/rmaa-test-results-for-audio-gd-dac-19mk3-and-reference-1
 
I'll freely admit to not being the world's greatest DAC expert - or anything expert when it comes to audo. I'm still learning.
 
As to the main substance of my point - in music featuring instuments and human voices, very little goes on in that region. Pretty much just certain drums and percussion. Maybe its a different matter with electronic music.
 
One thing I'll say is the 5-6k peak of the HD800 is certainly more likely to play a part of the actual overall sound of the headphones, especially as you'll likely have the volume adjusted for the relatively sucked out 1-3k region.

Wow, that's earlier than I remembered.  It's only down 2dB at 20kHz though.  Probably not audible, but I don't think I'd pay that kind of money for it either.

 

[EddieE]

I found it audible in a direct comparison with my clip - but its not exactly earth shattering - it certainly does change the overall character of the sound subtley though.
 
It's basically exactly what some have called the "smooth, mellow, analogue" sound of the player - just treble attenuation you can mimic well enough with an equaliser rather than paying so much for.

 

[Confispect]

Sorry about your wallet. 

 

[EddieE]

Haha, I didn't buy it. I heard it at a meet.

 

[logwed]

"Sorry, I hear it completely differently. It is unbearable and unnatural. Anything but inconsequential. Voices are clearly etched by being recessed yet piercing. All instruments become treble instruments."
 
Wind016, if you can find me a singer who can sing a 10,000hz tone, I'll give you a hundred bucks. It's simply outside vocal range. What you're hearing is clearly not the 10 kHz spike.
 

"High frequencies in dynamic headphone drivers always cause more ear fatigue than speakers, but I'm not sure this is the case with electrostatic headphone drivers. Sound pressure is probably dispersed more evenly with electrostatic drivers. I still have to test out firsthand with my own music and equipment though."
 

I'm talking about Fletcher-Munson curves, not differences in audio technologies.

 

[wind016]

 
Quote:

As to the main substance of my point - in music featuring instuments and human voices, very little goes on in that region. Pretty much just certain drums and percussion. Maybe its a different matter with electronic music.
 
 

As maverickronin said, use a spectrum analyzer. I use my PSP Neon HR 2's analyzer and almost all my music reaches at least 17K frequencies. The only time music appears to be limited to 10K is when a strong filter effect is used in the mix.
 

 

[EddieE]

No one has said nothing happens at 10k, just saying it is mostly drums, percussion and mico details, not the main timbre of instruments. 
 
I do watch the spectogram (I always have it running) and while you get some ghostly remnants up there (that I think are micro details as you can clearly pick out the main timbre of the instruments lower down) most of the action is in percussion and drums up there, and even those sounds are spread out across a broader range - it's just part of the sound.