The Last Thread For Gamer's
Jan 11, 2005 at 1:32 PM Post #46 of 70
Quote:

Originally Posted by Geek
I also play CS: Source on the 101st clan server (my friend's server) at www.101st-clan.com/ and enjoy UT2004.

You should give me a PM on AIM (HappyFunnyFoo) ICQ (19742163) or otherwise. My friend who is a UT2004 madman would love to play you.



Oh I play ut2004 too.You're in montana though,you are probably west coast player.You and your friend are still welcome to visit our clan server:
Server IP: ut2004://64.94.171.238:9700 password: What
Some really good players play there sometimes,even Gimix himself.
PS:my clanmates all have a hard time beleiving my headphones cost me over $700.
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Jan 11, 2005 at 4:13 PM Post #47 of 70
Sound stage "imaging" does require a bit of imagination in my opinion.

Also, regarding the front presentation, the 3ks really do help with that. They never get it really right, I think the image for me stops at like, the corners of my eyebrows if that makes sense. Nothing ever truly gets in front and distanced like it can achieve with the back. But it definitely seems to do better with binaural recordings than the other phones I've tried with drivers flush with ears. I think that's why I like the 3ks so much for classical. Soundstage, soundstage, soundstage. And soundstage is what you need for gaming.

Somone should make a headphone with a driver in the front, side, and back for uber positioning
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I wish gaming had binaural recordings. Maybe we should start an online petition and see if we can get developers to start catering to the growing headphone market. And recording studios too while we're at it.

I wonder if someone could program a sound processing chip, much like a EAX for speakers, for headphones. Much like crossfeed, but study the ways the sound waves reverb in the left and right ear, and bounce off the "average" head and come into both ears, and then artificially induce a head into regular digital sound. It wouldn't be as perfect as a true binaural recording of course, but I'm sure they could develop something for headphones.
 
Jan 11, 2005 at 4:29 PM Post #48 of 70
I only dabble with cs:s/hl2dm etc nowadays but I did play Q2 long and hard several years back.

HD580's were fine, they do everything I want them to do and most of all they are comfy. I can wear them for hours and hours without a problem, which is needed if you are real hardcore!

I didn't have trouble at lans with them, infact it helps they are open because (this is years back) we were shouting at each other
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Jan 11, 2005 at 5:35 PM Post #49 of 70
Cadobhuk,

Thanks for the info. I'll relay that to my friend and add it to my favorites. My internet connection is mediocre for FPS games due to a hardware glitch in our ISP's wireless router receiver which creates massive lag spikes. I still manage to play it somehow though.

Cheers,
Geek
 
Jan 11, 2005 at 6:58 PM Post #50 of 70
Quote:

Originally Posted by TWIFOSP
I wish gaming had binaural recordings. Maybe we should start an online petition and see if we can get developers to start catering to the growing headphone market. And recording studios too while we're at it.

I wonder if someone could program a sound processing chip, much like a EAX for speakers, for headphones. Much like crossfeed, but study the ways the sound waves reverb in the left and right ear, and bounce off the "average" head and come into both ears, and then artificially induce a head into regular digital sound. It wouldn't be as perfect as a true binaural recording of course, but I'm sure they could develop something for headphones.



They already do it. But it's really bad. If they improved the quality I'd throw away my surround hi-fi.
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Compare the posted mp3 to the performance of your soundcard with this program.
 
Jan 12, 2005 at 4:03 AM Post #52 of 70
Quote:

Originally Posted by SDA
It's quite possible to get good channel separation with decent stereo headphones as well


If someone would have patience and continue explaining why 5.1 headphones for GAMES is a bad thing, I would really appreciate it. I understand that lots of other cans get much better channel seperation between the left and right channel, I even listened to the little binaural .mp3, it was great and all, but I'm still not understanding one thing.

The zalmans let you take advantage of EAX, which utilizes left rear and right rear. By "channel seperation" don't you mean left and right? I listened to the binaural .mp3, and I've been thinking about it, but I don't see how stereo headphones convey front and rear, which is good for gaming. It would be the difference between hearing someone who's at the left side of your head, and hearing someone who's at the left side of your head and behind you.
 
Jan 12, 2005 at 4:12 AM Post #53 of 70
EAX is a set of DSP effects for things like reverb, occlusion and such. NOT a positional sound system. Just thought I should clear that up.
 
Jan 12, 2005 at 5:23 AM Post #54 of 70
HP890 = winnar
IMO plugging higher end headphone into a source such as the creative line offers nothing but diminishing returns. i'd rather spend the extra cash on better gear - mouse, keyboards, mousepad. i don't hear any difference when using the HD580 or the HP890 for gaming, too busy fragging & couldn't be bothered.. they both pinpoint enemy directions accurately.
 
Jan 12, 2005 at 5:42 AM Post #55 of 70
Quote:

Originally Posted by Helter Skelter
EAX is a set of DSP effects for things like reverb, occlusion and such. NOT a positional sound system. Just thought I should clear that up.


You are exactly right, excuse me. I honestly thought EAX did more, that opens up some more options as far as sound cards goes! I apologize. I still would like to know how the idea of rear channels is dismissed so easily though.
 
Jan 12, 2005 at 7:31 AM Post #56 of 70
Quote:

If someone would have patience and continue explaining why 5.1 headphones for GAMES is a bad thing, I would really appreciate it. I understand that lots of other cans get much better channel seperation between the left and right channel, I even listened to the little binaural .mp3, it was great and all, but I'm still not understanding one thing.


It's not really a bad thing, it's just not a good thing, which means paying the premium is a bad idea.

Quote:

You are exactly right, excuse me. I honestly thought EAX did more, that opens up some more options as far as sound cards goes! I apologize. I still would like to know how the idea of rear channels is dismissed so easily though.


The binaural mp3 demonstrated that bit pretty well. When given a good recording, stereo headphones can do an excellent illusion of sound coming from all directions. This is why the idea of headphones with rear channels is dismissed so easily, I guess: you just shouldn't need more than two drivers.
 
Jan 12, 2005 at 7:43 AM Post #58 of 70
Lindrone (and I, to some extent) already tried to explain this.

For humans to perceive sound coming from behind, the sound doesn't have to physically come from behind.

It just needs to be filtered in a similar manner as sounds that were actually coming from behind (well, at least in theory).

This filtering is based on transfer functions. Head Related Transfer Function (or HRTF) is (most often) a generic approximation of how one's torso/head/ears filter the incoming sounds from one direction.

When this function is applied to playback sounds (a game sound being played back 'from behind') based on their intended direction/position, the human hearing system assumes position based on the sound+HRTF.

Hence, we hear the sound coming from behind, even though it comes from the headphone driver usually perpendicular to the ear drum.

However, reality is not as simple as that ideal situation.

For the 'faking' of sound direction to be near ideal, the HRTFs need to be tailored individually to each listener's head. Each person has a set of (directionally based) individual HRTFs.

No game software, no sound card or consumer utility allows the measuring, uploading and tailoring of one's individual HRTFs, so that everybody can use their own HRTFs in games.

Due to this, it is impossible to get near ideal sensation of sound playback from behind. The HRTFs used in games and in sound cards (CMSS by Creative, Virtual ear by Sensaura, QSound, etc) are crude approximation: statistical averages of many different individual HRTFs. Or in some cases, even cruder approximations of human hearing related filtering, without any statistical analysis of HRTF variations.

Because these approximations are crude, the illusion of sound coming from behind is not very believable.

Also, it must be noted that human directional hearing accuracy is at it's greatest from straight behind (the cone of confusion is amongst the smallest there).

Due to this, human hearing is very adept at identifying sounds that come from behind. This is also partially the reason why it is not so easy to fool human hearing with crude HRTFs. The approximations need to be near ideal to be really convincing and stable.

So, there is nothing wrong with using 5.1 speakers or using headphones with multiple drivers.

In fact, in the first case (multiple speakers) the sound localisation can be much more accurate than with any headphones.

However, in the latter case do consider that the drivers inside 5.1 headphones really aren't positioned that much "in front" or "behind" you. They are just a little bit more angled from each other.

While this may be better than listening to single driver headphones (one driver/headphone cup) without any virtualisation in terms of positioning, it is
not as good as headphones+near-ideal HRTF in terms of positional accuracy.

A further point of interest is that there is no single set of quality 5.1 headphones (i.e. headphones with multiple drivers).

All the Zalman and other cheap copy-cat 5.1 headphones use very cheap drivers in a very passable housing. The quality leave a lot to be desired. Selection and quality in normal headphones is much better.


I'm not sure if I did a good job of explaining in a hurry, but at least I tried. Do ask if the issue is still confusing.

regards,
Halcyon

PS The most important channel in 5.1 speaker setup is center channel due to dialogue being mostly placed in that in dvd movies. This is not so important for games.

Actually, the most crucial channel in terms of accuracy in games is discrete rear channel (6.1 or 7.1 rear channel), because human hearing is most accurate regarding sound directions from behind. It is difficult to fake that position with left side rear and right side rear channels, even though center channel in front can be convincingly faked with front left and front right channels.

From this point of view, the 5.1 system was designed backwards. The center channel should have been placed behind (not in front), if one considers the human positional hearing accuracy.
 
Jan 12, 2005 at 2:29 PM Post #59 of 70
Quote:

Originally Posted by halcyon
PS The most important channel in 5.1 speaker setup is center channel due to dialogue being mostly placed in that in dvd movies. This is not so important for games.


I agree completely on the lack of center with the Zalmans, and I realize that they aren't good for sound quality, that's why I don't own a pair. And thank you for the sound perception lesson.

I just know that I've never had the cash for a 5.1 setup, and I've never owned a pair of speakers or headphones that I was able to discern left front and left rear with. I listened to that binaural .mp3. I'm not saying that everybody should go out and buy these things, I'm just saying I've been to a Zalman booth (or maybe it was creative) either way, I've played with there little sound flying around you demo and it was very convincing. I've even played games with them on my head and I was shocked at the sound discernment. IMO they're not for everybody, but the are well designed for gamers, the seal (on my friends head at least) is really good, I sit right next to him when we play and I either have to shout or knock him upside the head to get his attention, which is great for loud LAN environments.

All I'm wondering is how many people have honestly tried them for games, not read a review saying they suck.
 

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