The Last Thread For Gamer's
Jan 10, 2005 at 6:57 AM Post #31 of 70
Perception of sound in humans is psychological. It's not called PSYCHOacoustics for no reason
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Human hearing is not a linear measuring instrument.

regards,
Halcyon

PS I'd also say Ultrasone HFI-650 is not the best choice due to it's clamping, small headphone cups and tendency to get really hot/sweaty (I don't sweat easily myself). I can't comment straight against A900 & DT770Pro until I get them later this week.
 
Jan 10, 2005 at 7:36 AM Post #32 of 70
Without really digging into the matter of linguistics here (at least refraining from too much of it), I think it's not really accurate to say that soundstaging effects of binaural recording is "psychological".

Perception of soundstage, and sound in general, has as much to do with a physical effect as well as psychological. The structure of your outer ear, all the different grooves and shapes it has, helps "shape" the sound and it's a very important part of determine where the sound is coming from based on how the sound bounces off your outer ear and eventually enter your ear canal.

It has been said that if a person does not have an outer ear, he will lose the ability to create any sort of depth and positional perception with sound. Very much like a person with only one eye cannot tell depth.

Binaural recordings take this concept a step further. Binaural recordings are done via a "dummy head", which is a model of a head with human-like ears, and microphones are placed inside the ears of the dummy head. Then sounds are played around the head. Thus all of the "sound shaping" that is normally performed by your outer ears is now recorded into the music itself. Thus "binaural audio" sounds even better when you're using canalphones, which doesn't involve the outer ear and does not add yet another level of sound shaping (as full-size headphone would). Although full-size headphone still sound incredible with binaural recording anyway.

This effect can also be digitally manipulated, instead of physically recorded with a dummy head. This is how computer soundcard "downmixes" a digital surround sound stream into your headphone, the "virtual surround" is based on studies of binaural effects.

That's the reason why you really don't need one of those "5.1 headphones" to create surround sound effects, because as long as the source stream is really surround, you can emulate how they will sound and then apply that effect into headphone applications.

Furthermore, usually headphones that has angled drivers provide better frontal soundstage than headphones that has flat driver positioning. Reason being that the sound is projected into your outer ear in a more "frontal" projection as normal speakers would, instead of completely projected from the sides. Headphones such as A900, CD3000 all use angled drivers.

Of course, crappy headphones with angled drivers still won't do any better, such as the Sony MDR-V600... angled driver, but still sounds like it has no soundstage whatsoever.
 
Jan 10, 2005 at 1:31 PM Post #33 of 70
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Radar
Try listening to this file which demonstrates binaural surround sound.


I'm putting this on my laptop and taking it with me to the Seattle meet so we can have some fun with soundstage comparisons. I could pinpoint exatly where it was coming from the entire time with my HD595s (which are fantastic gaming headphones, by the way, if you don't mind their open nature), but the cheap crap I also have laying around didn't even begin to compare, even coming from the same source.
 
Jan 10, 2005 at 2:06 PM Post #34 of 70
Im a Call of Duty player, my clan is the local champion, with close competition from a clan up north.

I used to use the Speedlink Medusa 5.1 Headset for Call of Duty and they served me well, now I run a pair of Alessandro MS-2 out of my creek amp from my emu 1212m soundcard.

I would say that you definantly do not need a gamers card to have good sound in games, I am very satisfied with the soundstage, seperation and the sound quality of the MS-2, although my system probably lacks a bit in the bass.
However Im never going back to a gaming card.

Ive played Call of Duty online twice, just deathmatch and both times I didnt find it hard to win the DM servers at all. The online players wouldnt believe that I was a LAN player only, i could pick up anybody near me and always had the advantage because of my MS-2s.

However I intend to get a pair of DT770Pros for my gaming.
 
Jan 10, 2005 at 3:03 PM Post #35 of 70
Ignoring the fact that they are open how do the HD 580's hold up for gaming? I am considering getting some A900's for gaming if they are that much better than my Senns. Thanks.

Mark
 
Jan 10, 2005 at 3:28 PM Post #36 of 70
If you look at some of the major mutli-gaming clans in the world: SK, United5, compLexity, Team3D, fnatic; they mostly use Sennheisers. Just to see how trendy the community is already, if you ask someone else who plays, more often then not, if you ask them why they use Sennheisers, they say "But clan **** uses, they must be good."

I'm trying to break from that mold.
 
Jan 10, 2005 at 3:56 PM Post #37 of 70
Quote:

Originally Posted by Target1
Ignoring the fact that they are open how do the HD 580's hold up for gaming? I am considering getting some A900's for gaming if they are that much better than my Senns. Thanks.

Mark



Sennheiser's frontal imaging is lacking in comparison to A900. Although the sound is more "airy", the soundstage doesn't quite have the same depth perception as the A900. Furthermore, if you're not using a headphone amp to drive HD580, they don't reach anywhere near their performance potential out of any headphone output alone from any soundcard.
 
Jan 10, 2005 at 3:57 PM Post #38 of 70
Quote:

Originally Posted by Enverxis
get a pair of DT770Pros for my gaming.


like i said
 
Jan 10, 2005 at 4:09 PM Post #39 of 70
Quote:

Originally Posted by lindrone
Without really digging into the matter of linguistics here (at least refraining from too much of it), I think it's not really accurate to say that soundstaging effects of binaural recording is "psychological".


I think it depends on the point of view.

Also, to be more precise, I was referring to the fact that human hearing is psychological.

I wasn't saying that binaural recordings are 'psychological'.

But if you want to argue the effects part, yes I'd be more willing to side on the psychological part on that one.

Let me illustrate.

Psychological hearing means that the effect of directional sound perception rises from the mind.

Of course, there is physical acoustical (and mechanical) filtering that happens in a sound that is heard with human hearing apparatus (most only think about the head related transfer function, but the middle/inner ear transfer functions are important as well).

sound pressure stimulus (i.e. an acoustical event) => sensation of sound (i.e. a perceptory event)

The key here being 'implies', not 'being equivalent'.

One is inferred from another.

Still, there is nothing that objectively tells a system to draw directional cues from this acoustically filtered signal.

That inference is drawn by the mind.

Hence, psychoacoustics.

This also implies that the psychoacoustical inference can be fooled by feeding the hearing apparatus a signal that is not accurate with natural acoustical filtering. Just using the filtering that the psychoacoustical system needs, is enough. But that is a subject for another discussion.

Quote:

Perception of soundstage, and sound in general, has as much to do with a physical effect as well as psychological. The structure of your outer ear, all the different grooves and shapes it has, helps "shape" the sound and it's a very important part of determine where the sound is coming from based on how the sound bounces off your outer ear and eventually enter your ear canal.


Correct. Also, torso and head related masking strongly affect incoming sound filtering in human subjects.

Quote:

It has been said that if a person does not have an outer ear, he will lose the ability to create any sort of depth and positional perception with sound.


Ah, but that is not true.

Experiments have been performed with both people who have no outer ears.

While loss of directional accuracy does decrease significantly, it is not lost. This is due to head/torso related masking and most notably interaural time-delay.

Quote:

Very much like a person with only one eye cannot tell depth.


Ah, but that is not true either
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While stereopsis is gone, monocular depth cues remain. It is perfectly normal for a human subject with one eye to experience depth. It's just not as strong/accurate as with stereopsis (up to say 6-10 meters).

Binaural recordings take this concept a step further. Binaural recordings are done via a "dummy head", which is a model of a head with human-like ears, and microphones are placed inside the ears of the dummy head.
Small correction.

Binaural doesn't necessarily require dummy outer ears.

Just a plain ball acting as a head masker is sometimes used. Some use parts of the torso as well. Some use hair approximation with outer ear approximators.

It is arguable, that the approximation of outer ears is problematic due to different shapes and sizes of outer ears, which is precisely the reason why some binaural recorders shun them.

This also then affects the ideal playback chain considerations, naturally.

Quote:

That's the reason why you really don't need one of those "5.1 headphones" to create surround sound effects, because as long as the source stream is really surround, you can emulate how they will sound and then apply that effect into headphone applications.


Yes. Unfortunately the emulation with approximation is far from complete or believable (esp. in depth separation).

Having compared: CMSS (Creative), Sensaura (ex-Sensaura, now Creative), A3D (ex-Aureal, now buried by Creative), QSound (QSound) and Dolby Headphone (Dolby), I can personally testify that the emulation for rear localisation (or front/rear separation in general) is still sorely lacking in generalized headphone virtualisation systems.

Of course, using one's own HRTF would be more towards the ideal and produce much more believable results, but this is something that is laborous to do and for which there is no provision in consumer 3D headphone virtualisation algorithms.

Sensaura did have "Virtual Ear" App that allowed the customisation of HRTF by playing around with some basic filtering parameters, but this was not the same as if it had the ability to input one's own HRTF function as a filtering input.

Quote:

soundstage whatsoever.Perception of soundstage, and sound in general, has as much to do with a physical effect as well as psychological.


Ah, here I agree completely.

It's a philosophical point, but acoustical filtering (physical) is just signal manipulation. Depth perception is a phenomenological instance, an inference of the mind, drawn from the acoustical cues fed to the human nervous system.

I'm sorry if I bore you with psychoacoustics. I just wanted to further clarify a few points, in order not to be misunderstood by my terse original remark.

friendly regards,
Halcyon

PS ObThreadTip: I think a decent hardware accelerated DirectSound3D compliant sound card is _audibly_ better for avid gamers than plain-old 2D sound cards.

Why?

Not all games have their own 3D headphone virtualisation algorithms (like HL2 does) and even if they do, they almost always do a crappier job than any of the currently available gaming headphone virtualisation algorithms (QSound, Sensaura, CMMS classix or SS/DD->Dolby Headphone). Even HL2 is much better played with 5.1 output and having the soundcard do the headphone virtualisation (if it has even semi-decent HRTF approximation). If you don't believe me, try it out. I've done it and I'm not going back to playing with stereo
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Of course, you don't _need_ them, but they do provide at least some rudimentary level of front/rear sound localisation, something which stereo only sound sources do not provide.

Also, as a further point, it must be noted that sometimes using stereo with lousy in-game virtualisation can be better _overall_, even if the depth perception (esp. front/rear separation) is almost completely destroyed.

Why?

Because some games internal stereo headphone virtualisation output allows one to hear at longer distances than using 5.1 discrete ouput with soundcard virtualisation.

Sometimes it's more important to actually hear _something_ than not to hear anything (but have that nothing more accurately positioned).

Counter-strike being a notable example, where many people I know swear by the internal headphone algorithm, although it has practically no front/rear localisation at all.

It just allows you to hear game sounds happening at longer distances in the game world.

It's a small difference, but to some that counts.
 
Jan 10, 2005 at 6:42 PM Post #40 of 70
Thinking about what you said halcyon, I think it is "psychological" hearing in gaming, especially if you use headphones that aren't 5.1-ready. I was just thinking the other night how I heard someone close by me and I was able to pinpoint where he was reloading, but also where he was walking. Not because of how I heard him, though it was a factor, but of how I logically assumed his position and motives based upon what I know of the level and what I know n00bs do.
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Jan 10, 2005 at 7:17 PM Post #41 of 70
D4RPA, that's a very good point.

Acoustic stimuli is pre-processed already on the early parts of central nervous (thalamus) system and combined with other senses like vision. Also, activity at auditory cortex is heavily influenced by visual stimuli.

That is, what we see affects what we hear. And by "what we hear" I mean what is our perception of the acoustical events. There is always interpretation included.

So, on a higher level (more cognitive, than pre-attentive) the hearing is even more psychological (i.e. arises in the mind).

regards,
halcyon
 
Jan 11, 2005 at 1:04 AM Post #42 of 70
I agree, the positional audio in CS on any headphone is pretty poor, alot of gamers use surface noises to identify where the enemy is, ie ladders, metal, water
 
Jan 11, 2005 at 2:10 AM Post #43 of 70
I use HD650s with a high end amplifier.

I consistently place on NeoGamei.net for Starcraft: Brood War and have a higher actions per minute ratio than all but two of the world's top 40 Starcraft: Brood War players.

I also play CS: Source on the 101st clan server (my friend's server) at www.101st-clan.com/ and enjoy UT2004.

You should give me a PM on AIM (HappyFunnyFoo) ICQ (19742163) or otherwise. My friend who is a UT2004 madman would love to play you.

As for my headphones, the only phone that I can listen to for long sessions is the HD650. I don't have to take breaks with the phone, the sound is so relaxed. It is also the most detailed sound I've heard for gaming, coupled with my Maxed Out Home-Reference/Stepped Attenuator amp. Footsteps in CSS are very precise, esp. with crossfeed on.

Cheers,
Geek
 
Jan 11, 2005 at 6:03 AM Post #44 of 70
I can tell you that with tourney experience (as limited as it is) that you would benefit from good isolating cans. I would recommend the HD280pro. It isolates very well, sounds great with music, has really good spatial representation, and are comfortable for extended listening periods. The only thing that can be a pain is the coiled cord. Other than that, for $70 @ etronics.com they're a steal and will definitely be my gaming can of choice when I go to Quakecon 2005.
 

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