[jude]

Quote:

Originally posted by Duncan I'm sure that there isn't a single other website that you go to unless its for a multi-national company that doesn't have banners and pop up windows...

Actually, I'm going to try to steer clear of banner ads, and way clear of pop-ups. If a sponsor asks for a tastefully done banner or small square ad, it would be considered. But pop-ups.... If you start seeing pop-ups, start sending contributions!

Quote:

Originally posted by mbriant I think we may be panicking prematurely. Let's face it, the headphone community is only so big. It's a very tiny piece of the A/V enthusiast pie. Although our discussions do sometimes expand outward into other audio territories, even they, be they cables, portables, DACs, etc., are most often discussed under the context of headphone usage. So unless Chu or Jude are planning on expanding into full tilt, all encompassing audio/video discussion boards sometime in the future, I don't really see either board attracting an infinite number of new members. Grow they will, but only to a degree.

mbriant, you'd be surprised what this little niche is probably capable of. HeadWize was growing fast. I'm betting there were a lot of members that were lurkers. Chu's Alexa Ranking was #6415. Audio Asylum's is #5974. Stereophile's site is Alexa Rank #41805. The Absolute Sound's site is not in the Alexa Top 100,000. Audio Review is #4168. SoundStage.com is #94,199. OnHifi.com is not in the Top 100,000. Hi-Fi Choice's site is #56,226. HeadRoom's site is #84,687. Car and Driver's site is #7631. Motor Trend's site is #7981. Etc., etc. (the names that are in italics have associated magazine titles). The community is busier than most of us realize. And forums have a high check-back rate. You go to Stereophile's site periodically, you read what they've got, you search for articles periodically, and you know they add new stuff about once per week. On a forum, if there's a topic of interest to you -- even if you're typically just a lurker -- chances are you make repeat visits back just to see what's developing, and/or to post. On a forum, content is effectively updated every few minutes. And it's those page views that are generated as a result of all that activity that can get expensive. I'd be willing to bet that Car and Driver's site has more total unique visitors. But I'd bet that even Head-Fi gets more daily total page impressions than they do.

If the site is to perform as the number of page views served per unit time continues to go up, there will have to be scalable bandwidth and decent hardware. There will be no avoiding that. Just ask Audio Asylum.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Sorry about that double post up there, I'm not sure how I did it and I did try to get rid of it and it wouldn't go away. Kinda like me. (%

Look at all those long posts! Isn't that a nice thing to see. Shows how much we care.

mbriant>>>( what have you been smoking there Tyle? )

Mostly op-amps today, and not those cheap mexican ones, I got that expensive epitaxialy grown silicon valley type.

Lots of posts express worry about money and talk about banner ads and the like. I'd like to mention the for the most part this web businees and the whole internet shake out was about the fact that banner ads don't work. That's an oversimplification but not one that is too far off.

>>>Whether hat and tee-shirt sales could cover it, I don't know, but somehow doubt it....at least on an ongoing basis.

Let me talk about just one simple idea for revenue generation: corporate membership. It was once mentioned on HeadWize that Corporate members might get a special signifier instead of the little headphone ranks. Let's say that Jude chargres $50 per month for a corporate member. Corporate members are then required to have their company logo as their avatar. If you click on a corporate members avatar you go to a corporate profile page that tells you who that person is, who the company is, and what that person does in the company, along with the normal personal info if the corporate member so desires. Also on that page is a link to the company site. Think about this, everytime I post, I would esentially be putting up a banner ad. And if the corporate sponsor doesn't post, they don't get an ad. In addition to this there would be a bunch of rules regarding corporate members posts: no blatent promotion, no disparaging of other manufacturers products, can't start a thread, and who knows exactly what else. Personally, I think HeadRoom's and Jan Meiers promotional activities on HeadWize and here ar fundimentallly inapropriate. I think we were relatively well behaved, but that freedom would get abused in the long run by companies if it isn't put in check. So how about having a forum area that is limited to corporate members starting threads, where I could start a contest or announce a promotion---but it costs me $200 to start the thread.

The above idea is just that, an idea, but it points to the fact that creative ways can be thought up to encourage worthwhile corporate participation that contributes to the community and serves the marketing interests of the corporation. It also make marketing really more about the truthfull distribution of corporate information rather than quick and aluring ads. You know, the REAL headphone experts (the engineers at Sennheiser, AKG, Beyer, and yes Sony) are not here. The reason why is that marketing in the past has been about how convincing you can be in one 4-color page of a magazine. If a place like this can offer a different way for companies to comminicate with consumers, you'll get the engineers talking here. Remember Don Wilson from Etymotic? How cool is that?

I think there are lots of ways for Head-Fi and HeadWize to earn revinue. I pay ~$3000 a month to advertise in Stereophile and I know that I could get more bang for my buck here. I just don't have an established value structure to spend it in.

 

[Budgie]

As long as all those corperate sponsors can get along

(oh god, I will probably have to pay dearly for that one!)

 

[markl]

Tyll,
I think sometimes you tend to go to the community with thoughts that might best be shared in private with the people you are really trying to communicate with. It's not really clear to me exactly what you are trying to say. Are you trying to convince cmoy and Jude to team up, get cmoy or Jude to agree to shut down, convince the community not to support one or the other boards, or....? Somewhere in there I got lost. In any event, when you go public this way, you force people to try to defend positions they may not otherwise have taken. Ultimately, you end up unnecessarily upsetting the people that are crucial to you and your own success and further divide the community. If I were a headphone retailer, I would stay as far away from picking sides as possible. It doesn't seem like you have anything to gain by stirring things up like this. I think folks like Headroom have to stay neutral and let the community decide where they want to hang out. You need all of us. Look how many potential customers you lost the last time you spoke up like this over at Headwize. Just some friendly, unsolicited advice.

I am also stunned and upset that you had to show this site to the Vice Chairman of Sennheiser. How could they be so unaware of these communities? Outrageous!

As far as Jude "selling us out" to some big corporate entity, I find that pretty far-fetched. Jude is clearly one of the biggest headphone dorks in the world. This is HIS baby, I reckon. He is ALWAYS logged in every time I come here. This is more than just a hobby with him, it's clearly his passion.

So what happens when audio asylum adds a "headphone asylum"? We can't police the entire internet and protest every new source of headphone info. Headwize at the end had (I believe) ~2000 members assembled over 2-3 years. How many of those "members" were active at the time of the shut-down? Probably the same 300+ of us that are now here. How much real room is there for multiple identical forums? Not much unless they are somehow different from one another.

What I think Jude needs to do ASAP is figure out a way to differentiate these forums from Headwize. He has essentially duplicated the Headwize forums almost exactly (including forum names!). You need to provide something Headwize can't, a different slant on things that attracts people who have different interests or levels of expertise.

It seems to me that the truly hard-core Headwizers ultimately ended up here, and the rest evaporated into the ether. Headwize has now been down so long, I bet that much of that community (the casual visitors) have found other places to hang out (non-headphone sites) and won't be back. I suggest that Jude try to make this community geared more for the hard-core headphone "elite" and leave all the newbies over at Headwize. People can start there, and "graduate" to Headfi if they are really bitten by the headphone bug.

Having two identical communities does dilute the value of each one. On that, (if I interpret him correctly) I agree with Tyll.

markl

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl ...You need to provide something Headwize can't, a different slant on things that attracts people who have different interests or levels of expertise.... ...Having two identical communities does dilute the value of each one. On that, (if I interpret him correctly) I agree with Tyll...

Thanks for the nice comments in your post, markl. If HeadWize and Head-Fi continue to stay up for a long time simultaneously, then, yes, it might make more sense to scramble things up a bit and make things different, as you have suggested. But what if HeadWize has to be closed again -- I know that I (as a past and current HeadWizer) have enjoyed the forums that were there (again, Chu did a nice job with it), and want to be able to continue these same discussions somewhere. You're right, it appears most of the most active posters are also now registered here. I want to be able to keep them all talking about things as always they have on HeadWize until such a time that we've determined that it's going to be up permanently. I hope you understand.

Again, if it looks like the two will both be moving forward separately for the long haul, then, yes, I generally agree with what you're saying. I hope you see why it is the way it is now though.

One way or the other, you're still going to see things here that are new and different.

And this ain't my baby, it's our baby -- the community, I mean. Whether we're here or somewhere else, I just want a place where we can all check in however many times a day makes each of us comfortable, say hello, tell everyone about our new acquisitions and sales, and just generally hang out. Like rick's post (he just made) on the magic of live performances -- you see that? That's part of the magic. I have no idea what made him post that, but it was a nice little read. He was just typing what he was thinking. I want a permanent home for all these things, that's all.

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Actually, I'm going to try to steer clear of banner ads, and way clear of pop-ups. If a sponsor asks for a tastefully done banner or small square ad, it would be considered. But pop-ups.... If you start seeing pop-ups, start sending contributions!

LOL! I think I speak for quite a few people when I say that if I visit a site that uses pop-up ads, it's the last time I visit that site

 

[neil]

joelongwood says: Quote:

Unfortunately, when money is involved, the leaders tend to forget about the community. I'm starting to get a bad feeling about all this.

aos says: Quote:

However, I do agree with joelongwood. All the good things come to an end. And money tends to ruing things. But money also makes the world go round. That is the way of life, and complaining about it won't help. The only right thing to do is to move on, if you can't stand the changes (this looks like a pun).

Huh?

I think that the entire community will dictate whether it accepts or does not accept a form of sponsorship or fund raising.. but to try to give the vibe that there's the man or the machine that the community is going to have to go up against -- that's just not the situation.

I really enjoy this community. It's a lot of fun to hear what people listen to, in terms of equipment and music. You have to trust that Jude and the moderators won't let things get out of hand -- why would they? So the community would get angry, annoyed, and break up?

I've made an observation. There seems to be a fundamental disconnect -- and that disconnect does not seem to be arising from any of the fund raising or sponsorship ideas. The disconnect is coming from a lack of trust from a small number of members. This lack of trust is implied in posts, and in that way, I find it insulting to Jude and the moderators.

If you have concerns about specific issues, bring them up. For example, Duncan brought up pop-up ads. Yes, indeed, those annoy the hell out of me. They're ineffective and just annoy me to no end.

To Jude, and the other people that help moderate the Head-Fi forums, as cheesy as it sounds -- *I* trust that you'll make the right decisions to keep Head-Fi a stable, fun, and community-driven site.

I'm just one of the engineers that helps build Head-Fi, and hell, you might think I have loyalty bias. And you're right. My loyalty is with the online headphone hi-fi community.

 

[mcbiff]

I just want to say how much this forum (and Headwize) has meant to me since I discovered it not more than 6 months ago. Listening to music is now my #1 interest, the computer hasn't been upgraded for months. All I can think of is getting more music to listen to and more equipment to do it justice. For all of this I am infinitely grateful to the knowledgable people that frequent this forum. It really is incredible how music can change one's life.

Also, I would like to say that out of all the forums I've frequented over the years this one is the friendliest, without a doubt. The level of the discussion is always high, no childish remarks or unnecessary trolling to be seen. It's almost as if it moderates itself. Once again this is something that the members are responsible for.

If this sounds stupid it's probably because I'm Swedish, tired and foolishly listening to great music while trying to make sense.

I just hope someone gets the point, if there is one.

 

[dhwilkin]

Wow, has this thread ever exploded since I checked last night! jude is correct in saying these issues should be discussed openly. The more ideas, the better, and everyone in the community has a chance to speak their mind.

Quote:

neil said... I've made an observation. There seems to be a fundamental disconnect -- and that disconnect does not seem to be arising from any of the fund raising or sponsorship ideas. The disconnect is coming from a lack of trust from a small number of members. This lack of trust is implied in posts, and in that way, I find it insulting to Jude and the moderators.

I don't think these implications are a lack of trust so much as an expression of concern and an inability to directly do anything about it. Having members bring up potential issues w/ the way jude runs this forum (as long as these members are genuinely trying to be helpful) is not necessarily a bad thing. As much as I admire jude for putting up Head-fi, he's only human and can plan & anticipate only so much. These may be things that never occurred to him. Pretty much all of the criticism I've seen in this thread so far has been constructive, so what's wrong w/ that? I trust jude to make good decisions, and he will. Just realize it's human nature to worry about these things.

Quote:

MacDEF said... LOL! I think I speak for quite a few people when I say that if I visit a site that uses pop-up ads, it's the last time I visit that site

Well, you could always run a program that automatically blocks pop-up windows from appearing. Which isn't a bad idea in general. But yeah, pop-ups basically suck, and I'm sure would discourage lots of first-time visitors from coming back.

Quote:

Tyll said... Lots of stuff about corporate memberships...

See, this is potentially a very good idea. Bringing it up now gives jude a chance to gauge community feedback. And these ideas need to be thought about sooner rather than later. You saw how suddenly Headwize was shut down.

Will external money eventually be needed? Almost certainly, jude is correct about the amount of traffic this sort of site generates. Will this influence have a negative effect on this site? That all depends on the character of the people running the show, and looking around, I don't think we have anything to worry about.

Quote:

mcbiff said... Also, I would like to say that out of all the forums I've frequented over the years this one is the friendliest, without a doubt. The level of the discussion is always high, no childish remarks or unnecessary trolling to be seen. It's almost as if it moderates itself. Once again this is something that the members are responsible for.

That is exactly why this and Headwize are my favorite forums.

 

[Duncan]

Continuing on from earlier...

Sponsorship / HeadWizeFi merchandise definetly seems a lot better than a "Pay Per View" system...

Think about this from a newbie point of view... you are after a new pair of headphones... you decide to try the net, you come across one or other of the forums... and you have to PAY to look at peoples reviews of products that you didn't know you wanted... Maybe this is just MY opinion, but... If I was that newbie, I would then just go to the local Sony Centre, and pick up a pair of DJ 'phones, without paying for the advice of others

That also works backwards too... if no new people come along because they can't see the justification of paying for advice... then, the paying community, after a while would be starved of conversation... there would be no advice to give, because there would be no-one to give it to

As a matter of interest... how much would it cost... say between 200 people, to fund these sites for a year?... if we run on... say 150gb bandwidth required per month?

Maybe there could be a hardcore number of people who COULD fund the sites... after all, without headwizefi, I for one would not know about HeadRoom... Miere (sp?) audio, and Don Wilson from ETY with the special deals and advice on various 'phones... maybe, in our own little way the hardcore followers could "pay" for the discount / advice that we receive from these people who are "in the trade"... maybe there could be an additional 5% discount to "paying" members... something along those lines... I'm sure that wouldn't take too much from the profit margins? and could at least potentially lead to increased sales?

I don't know the internal workings of any of your organisations, so, if that is completely out of the question, please, don't flame me, its just a genuine post from someone who wants to see these forums stay as close to how they are now as possible

Thanks for lending me your ear (or... is that eye?

)

Duncan

 

[Eagle_Driver]

If I were still a newbie, then I would have gone to Big Deal (my pseudonym for Best Buy) - and bought myself a pair of Sony MDR-V*choke*CRAP*choke*DJ headphones!

 

[Trap]

Corporate members are a great idea, i wonder why noone has thought about it before. Thanks Tyll!

I am looking forward to a solution for the Headwize-forum + Headfi problem. To me making Headwize a headphone-news and projects-archive site and using Headfi as it's forum seems to be the best solution.
Going back to the Headwize-forums makes no sense to me, the forum software was worse, Chu will propably not be able to pay further growth...

In the last months, well actually it's the last year, i visited Headwize mostly because of the community and somehow this feeling is associated with Headwize and Chu and i am not sure about Headfi yet although the same nice people are here, strange...
Perhaps it's because of the still uncertain future of both Headwize and Head-Fi.

 

[markl]

Duncan is correct. Charging members money to come here would be the death of this site or any other site that tries it. Other ways have to be found.

markl

 

[chych]

Quote:

Listening to music is now my #1 interest, the computer hasn't been upgraded for months. All I can think of is getting more music to listen to and more equipment to do it justice.

So I am not alone... I was (well still am) a computer geek, and if it were not for Headwize, I would probably have some Promedias, a soundblaster, and some street styles with a slightly better computer now...

However headwizefi has really changed my perspective on sound and music, it has made it now an essential part of my life. I hope it continues.

 

[gorgon_123]

I wonder if anyone has considered the web portal idea for this community. Tyll brought up some interesting ideas: video chat/messaging and an MP3 exchange type of program. Well, how about web mail? I'd jump at the chance to have a gorgon_123@head-fi.org email address.

I'm reminded of the community at swirve.com. It started a few years ago as a free online game, then they added another game (try it, "Utopia", it's a blast). And now they've branched off into other areas - e-cards, fantasy sports, movie reviews, personality tests, weather, net radio, search engine, horoscopes etc etc. The reason the creators of swirve.com expanded the site is two-fold: 1. they became bored by the games and wanted new challenges and more importantly 2. they're looking to provide other services to promote a revenue stream, while keeping the gaming free. Now I'm sure they aren't making any money (shock!), but the point is that they are broadening their scope and ambition in terms of being a web prescense (sp??). Unfortunately they are facing the same problems the biggies like Yahoo! are facing: nobody wants to pay money for the same services offered for free elsewhere.

A few questions: would you be willing to pay a monthly or yearly premium for a super cool @head-fi.org (or @headwize.com) email addy? Would you be willing to pay a monthly or yearly premium for, say 10 meg of webspace, at for example www.head-fi.org/gorgon_123 ?? If these services could pay for themselves and overflow a little bit into other areas of the site then that's a bonus.

Anyway... just a few more ideas thrown into the discussion. Keep 'em coming folks, this is OUR future we're talking about here.

-g