The importance of an on-line headphone community.
Jul 14, 2001 at 12:24 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 92

Tyll Hertsens

Garmentus Vulgaris & Headphoneus Supremus
Member of the Trade: Innerfidelity
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Man, Jude's gotten long winded all of a sudden!

Actually, I’d like to point something out: I believe Jude’s gotten long winded because he’s just turned his professional attention to the long term problems of how the best home for headphone enthusiasts is going to look ten years down the road, and it’s a complicated and fascinating problem, one that takes a lot of words to describe. For those of you who don’t know; Jude runs a successful Internet service distribution company, and surviving the last 1 ½ as an web based company is no laughing matter. In my opinion, he managed it because he’s smart, he understands how the web works, and how it can affect people. I mention this not because I want to complement Jude (anyone who wins the worlds most difficult headphone naming contest can only be considered a total geek), but because the very nature of what the web can be for people in the future is amazingly beautiful and complicated at the same time, so you have to have all the above characteristics to even SEE at all what the web future can look like.

Now, I could wax poetic for a moment, but I should get to the point of how I think HeadWize and Head-Fi could move forward into a productive and future that is beneficial to all. Unfortunately, I never do what I should, and I am going to wax poetic---so print this thing out and get a cup of coffee.

How can a thing be both beautiful and complicated? Isn’t elegance found in simplicity? Doesn’t the chaos of complexity obscure the pure harmonic resonance of a thing needed to elicit the subjective beauty response? (Phew!) Isn’t the right answer for any Internet community, a simple answer? I’m afraid I have to contend that it is not. I will argue that Beauty can be found in complexity, and the right solution for the Phonehead community in the information age will be simply beautiful in it’s ability to deliver an intensely authentic subjective experience of community for each member, but it will also be intensely complex in a number of ways. (Hardware, software, reliability, redundancy, etc will all fit under the technological umbrella; things like contests and debates and who knows what will fit in it’s governmental and sociological management; and last but not least, somehow over the next five years all that improvement will have to be paid for resulting in a need to for an effective economic system with gain to be in place.)

“Wait!” you scream, “All we need is a place to talk.”

That would be true if all HeadWizeFi is is a bunch of headphone geeks, but it’s not. The nature of the Information Age is that it allows for the efficient means of communication. But I feel the Information Age would be better named the “age of great meaning” or “the age of shared consciousness” because the real value to us human beings is the Web’s ability to allow the efficient movement of meaning from person to person. In our case, it has a unique ability to provide the infrastructure of community involvement; more importantly, it permits us to enjoy the fun of being together over a wire. Another characteristic is that as people learn how on-line communities work, more advanced communal feature will be developed. You guys are already hooked on surveys and personal messages; what happens when you get video posts, or an built in MP3 e-mail exchange club? What happens when HeadRoom can serve the community by making our measurement graphs available right inside the forums so you guys can select headphones to compare and talk about it with the graph right in your post. It’s hard to imagine all the cool things that will be available to an on-line community to make it more fun to be together in the next ten years. I think it will be a blast! But remember, all that improvement has to be paid for!

What the Internet gives Humankind is the ability to distribute meaning efficiently over it’s whole. The advantage gained by this talent is the reduction in inefficiency due to the need for so much personal learning. For example, if I wanted to make a quilt for my new baby, I could go to my computer, click-up the world greatest quilting geeks community, who would give me advice and point me to all the resources I needed, maybe even e-mailing me printed instructions and patterns and having someone watch with me on video chat as I start putting it together. In other words, the world doesn’t need to have as many people learn to be expert on each topic of interest and distribute the experts around physically because, with the web, each citizen will have access to the experts right at home. Therefore, the value of this or any other enthusiast community to society-at-large is its ability to act as it’s center for knowledge-holding and opinion-making for a certain topic. The Web makes the world like a giant brain---and this community is the headphone synapse. The word “convergence” may be overused, but I believe it correctly describes this process of gathering, by means of communication technology, all the available meaning about a particular topic in one place, and then letting every body at it at once. The Internet lets us have centers for everything, and then distribute the center itself widely. The nature of a center is that there is only one, and I believe in the long run there will be…no, can be only one center for headphone enthusiasm. I believe is true no matter what Head-Fi and HeadWize do. The Internet not only enables the opportunity for a single opinion-making center for headphones, but requires a single center for it.

The problem I see with the current situation is that if two boards continue it weakens the community and allows for a third competitor to gain a foot hold. You guys in the little town of Headphone Heights are sitting on $200,000,000 worth of Internet real estate. (There are $200M (dealer price) headphones sold each year in the U.S. $150M is headphones of $25 or less.) You, dear Canaddicts, are the world’s greatest headphone experts, and the world of people making money selling headphones are becoming ever more interested in your opinions. The Vice Chairman of Sennheiser USA was here yesterday and we talked a lot about Head-Fi and what it meant. He wrote down the URL and took a few notes. You represent the possibility of something very important in the future of headphones. A LOT of people make their livelihood building and selling headphones and are seriously interested what the internet will do to headphone sales. You guys WILL build the singular community in which live the world’s greatest headphone geeks and by which all true opinions held to be true by human kind about headphones are formed, or someone else will.

Let’s not beat around the bush: if Sony came along and put up a super-cool discussion area and bitchen features---like the ability to earn credits for CDs and DVDs by posting, or paying people for the number of views their headphone reviews got---they could get a LOT of traffic. Maybe not from you and I, but a lot of traffic none the less. Maybe, if they’re really smart, they would make a place truly fun enough for most of the people here to at least go inhabit their community, too. And they would win the traffic war, and there is where that common Joe looking for headphones is going to be told NOTHING about Grados.

Now, my argument begins to break down if I don’t switch tracks for a little while. Consider the plight of Main Street USA: Fifty years ago Mom and Pop hardware and apparel stores flourished. There, in the center of town, sat all the little stores in a row, and around it, all the houses where the people who worked and shopped in the stores in town lived. Then along came the mall; it’s alluring air-conditioned and florescent-lit communal space calling; it’s artificial but compelling sense of community, where people are transformed into empowered shoppers. It was too much for them, and we abandoned Joe’s Eats and Bob’s Books for McDonalds and Borders. Downtown almost died before it started to figure out that people want a sense of togetherness when they’re together. They started kicking the cars off Main Street and building walking malls with benches and little coffee stands and trees and fountains. People started returning to the downtown area for it’s opportunity for authentic togetherness, and Main Street became profitable again. The lesson to learn here is that it’s actually the authentic experience of community that holds the most attractive focus for people; but you HAD to have a healthy economic structure as well.

Jude has said that he doesn’t want Head-Fi as a job; he also knows that Head-Fi has to support itself financially. Chu was choaking on the bandwidth costs, and if HeadWize gets more popular he will just have to cough up more dough. Chu will be a victim of the success of what he built. We all owe a debt of gratitude to Chu for years of costs and slave labor just to keep this community going. But, in many ways, it’s gained a life of it’s own, and it wants to be so much bigger than Chu’s wallet. I applaud Chu loudly for his work over the years, but I am also frustrated by his unwillingness to embrace a commercial dimension. I’ve volunteered a number of things a number of times to Chu and he thought about them, but couldn’t bring himself to do them. I understand his motives of not wanting to expose this community to the risk of influence and bias from commercial interest, but in his reluctance he essentially is abdicating the possibility to whoever comes along. I must admit, if Jude hadn’t put this board up, I would have had one up within two more days. I bought the software and have it loaded on my new web server already. (it was the same software, BTW, vBulliten.) But I didn’t really want to do it because I know that it’s best for the community that it be run NOT by a headphone business. Thank God, Jude came along!

Now, I too, have had some private talks with Jude. And I think he’d do a great job of getting this community and it’s growth paid for. And I don’t actually get along with him all that great. We clash a good bit, and we develop a good bit of tension about how we see the future. But, if it was any other way I’d be uncomfortable ‘cause I know Sony will be knocking on our door one day, and Jude would do the deal just fine.

But what about Chu and HeadWize? Well, I think he already has the best headphone resource site. I think he ought to continue to grow and polish HeadWize as an on-line headphone news and resource site. He already does news reports; he does all the DIY pages; sheesh, you know all the stuff he has over there. And his articles are already strongly indexed. People here could contribute by writing articles and such rather than posts. And the name HeadWize already has the right connotation for that purpose. Then he should put a link to Head-Fi on the bottom of each page and vice-versa.

For me the exciting thing is that this community could be a great fun-building place for headphone enthusiasm. I want it to be as real as possible because I intend to build and sell the really best stuff, and I can only benefit from such an honest community. But more than that, I have to admit that deep down inside I’m a headphone geek, and I like the fact that both Chu and Jude and all of you have built a place of authentic grass roots passion, and I LOVE it. I may not participate as much directly as a lot of you guys, but I really enjoy spending my work day relating my productivity in significant measure to this community.

Sorry to be so long winded, but hey, it my job.

Cheers,

Tyll
 
Jul 14, 2001 at 12:44 AM Post #2 of 92
Quite a long post with interesting points brought up. But what you have told has opened some doors within my mind, some new realizations in such headphone communities. Headwize and Headfi were never meant to compete, but such examples could bring on new players that will compete totally degrading our entire purpose (ditch $10 phones, get good ones, which is the core of us IMO). Seriously, there HAS to be some sort of union. A commercial entity backing a noncommercial forum, I have no problem with that... in fact, having a commercial entity that can benefit the forum (benefiting by meaning that, lets say Sony was the commercial entity, they would market v600s or some really high margins headphone, not good for the community) may actually prove to be a good thing for the users. It would also give us a greater sense of security.

This is an area where monopolies are good things for the user and we have to keep it that way.

So, on with the argument!
 
Jul 14, 2001 at 2:52 AM Post #3 of 92
My one cup of coffee did not last the length of Tyll's essay
wink.gif


Must be the cup size :p

Anyway, I do wish the forums come together or one backs out ( brutal and harsh I know) I participate in various of forums, I enjoy them because the different members make up. But when it comes to identical forum with just about identical members make up. It sure is redundant.... I mean if both forum exists ( which is likely to happen) I feel bad if I post a review or thread here and not the other one. So I ended up posting the same thread/post in other forum. Now for those that reads both places, I dont know how they feel about seeing the double post. To me it is a waste of my time ( and everyone's time posting same and reading same threads) Yes I know I can just NOT read any of the 2 forum and not waste any time, but we are all already in too deep
wink.gif


As I said in other thread, if both place co-exists, so will my forum posts/reviews ( if same threads involve) Not what I really like but I will survive ..
I will survive, I will survive.
At first I was afraid
I was petrified
Kept thinkin' I could never live without you by my side;
But then I spent so many nights
Thinkin' how you did me wrong
And I grew strong
And I learned how to get along
And so you're back from outer space
I just walked in to find you here with that sad look upon your face
I should have changed that stupid lock
I should have made you leave your key
If I'd've known for just one second you'd be back to bother me



...


OOPS I am not suppose to type that out :p ( I was tempted to change the lyric soemwhat but decided not to
wink.gif



Tides

PS. its all fun and joke
biggrin.gif
dont take it wrong!
 
Jul 14, 2001 at 3:33 AM Post #4 of 92
Tyll has an excellent point. I would be REALLY, REALLY, REALLY ticked if Sony opened up a craptacular site in the fashion tyll outlined.

HOWEVER -

i just don't see it happening...

That is simply because Sony's sales and operating revenues for the year two thousand totaled 62 billion dollars. Sure, you need to take out taxes and such - but still!? what's $200 million in headphones when there is so much more to be done? So much more money? That is what Sony is after at this point....

I think only HEADPHONE companies are gonna get in on this whole can site thing.

And if Sennheiser started a competing site against Headwize and Headfi, i really wouldn't mind. What's the worst they could do? Give me a pair of free HD600s?
tongue.gif


Or maybe i'm all wrong.......
 
Jul 14, 2001 at 4:03 AM Post #5 of 92
Actually, Sony can have it their way, and get a lot of traffic - but they would not get majority of people here.

Why?

Because it would be a huge forum, very well known and with very wide audience. Which means after a while the only thing left would be ashes from all the flame wars. I've participated in forums of different types for 10 years and I can tell you that any forum that has wider audience than a handful of enthusiasts ends up screwed. It would either end with every third word being @#$% or so heavily censored that it would be dry as gunpowder. Sooner or later, I'd be out.

I am not afraid of Sony. Their site won't have anything to offer me. And I'd wager most of the people here that I care for would not move to a site like that either.
 
Jul 14, 2001 at 4:14 AM Post #6 of 92
“...every third word being @#$%...”

Well, even if I were to run a site dedicated to hard-core audiophiles, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see 24 out of every 25 words to be %$#@ or to be so heavily censored that it would be even drier than @#$%ing gunpowder!
 
Jul 14, 2001 at 5:13 AM Post #7 of 92
Hmm, aos, that looks like what happened to the Audioreview boards... so ducked up now...

(and yes that typo was on purpose)
 
Jul 14, 2001 at 5:33 AM Post #8 of 92
LOL

my machine keeps crashing with BSOD... twice while I was typing this @#$% message

I don't mind the language at all. What I wanted to say is that Sony can't change my mind as to who I want my friends to be. If this were a question of economy, I'd worry. But it isn't. Sony can offer a lot of money but this is about things that money can't buy - like friendship.

Filtering effect of focused content is also something I wanted to mention, jude summed it up nicely below
smily_headphones1.gif
.
 
Jul 14, 2001 at 5:36 AM Post #9 of 92
The half of Tyll's post that I could understand seemed to bring up some interesting points.

Regarding some of the follow-up discussion about big corporate forums: I'm not too worried about the impact of big corporate forums. As someone stated in one of the follow-ups, I don't think a Sony forum (for example) would draw true headphone geeks like us for general discussion -- maybe to ask questions about specific Sony products, etc., but not for the type of conversations that make up the bulk of this community.

Regarding the forum getting big and drawing a bunch of crap (someone also mentioned AudioReview): I think a well-moderated board that deals with very specific subject matter filters out the crap. If you go to Audio Asylum, for example, it's well-moderated (not overly so though), and the passion for the topics does a pretty good job of filtering out the crap. Generally, we're even more specific here, and so, for example, someone who's coming in who has very little interest in the hobby would likely find what he's looking for and split, or try to cause trouble (be a troll) and get banned. I think the strength of this filter effect is directly proportional to the specificity of the content, and most importantly to the passion of the board members. Getting back to AudioReview, for example -- the equipment review board (the heart of the place) is often pasted with crap posts that never get moderated out (like the useless joke posts in the super-expensive equipment reviews).

Our community is far too passionate, and the boards will be too well moderated as a result, to let the place go down the drain. Again, Audio Asylum is an example of a forum that has gotten quite huge, but yet maintains quality through passion and organization. As long as the enthusiasm for the hobby is high with us, we'll be fine.
 
Jul 14, 2001 at 5:38 AM Post #10 of 92
Maybe my point isn't so much that Sony or any other single brand would open a competative site, but that, as time goes on, better and better community building technologies will develope.

aos >>> Because it would be a huge forum, very well known and with very wide audience. Which means after a while the only thing left would be ashes from all the flame wars.

Remember that I said I'm worried about someone smart coming along; a lot of people believe what you just said, and are working on ways of making cool community. Someone will figure better things out and someone like Sony, or maybe Soundstage or Stereophile or Circuit City, will build one.

But remember also that I said it is "authentic" community that will win in the end---as long it has all the other componants of community (Commerce, public service infrastructure, educational resource, just government).

Here's the important bit: I've seen dozens of threads about how everyone here is drawn to this place because of the....love...that is shared among the members. I don't mean some goopy smarmy love, I mean genuine inter-personal care and concern for each other in the compartment of our lives called headpones. I'll be the first one to tell one of you guys to get a life if I thought you were over the edge all the time, but I also think that it's OK to have a number of support networks in your life that are real. After all, what does that mean: "Get real"? Once you are in the here-and-now with someone else and get told to get real, doesn't that mean to genuinely engage person-to-person with sincere emotion. And shouldn't that sincere emotion be benevolently motivated? Well what the hell does that look like anyway? I'll tell you, it looks JUST like this place. And I don't mean HeadWize or Head-Fi, I mean youz guyz!

MY POINT IS YOU ALL HAVE DONE SOMETHING GREAT! DON'T SCREW IT UP!

Don't let it get diffused out there amidst the soon-to-be-myriad consumer electronics web peep shows. You guys should be "blood on you sword and flesh between your teeth" driven to make this place as sucessful as possible so that other folks with good hearts and special interests rise up and make web communities as vital and whole as this.

I'm sorry, bottom line I see life as a battle between good and evil, and though my armpits stink and there is hair growing out my nose, I know what side I'm on and I'm not afraid to defend my stand. Please don't read me wrong: I don't think Jude is good and Chu is evil AT ALL! Like Jude keeps saying, this is not a competition. In my view, it isn't a competition between Jude and Chu, but it is a competition between the relatively small number of people who have the power of position, ability, and resource to make change in winning over the attention of the masses; and the winner gets to decide how the profit of that interchange gets distributed. If Sony won, they'd make Sony bigger. Heck, if I won (by starting my own web community) I'd make HeadRoom bigger. (But I know I can't make a headphone community that would work, that's why I shut down my discussion area months ago---so that I wouldn't in the least dilute HeadWize; and why Todd and I get paid to hang around here, too). But if The folks at Head-Fi won, they'd make the headphone community bigger. If I'm part of that community then HeadRoom gets bigger, too. I'm betting Sony won't be around here any time soon, and I'll gain on them by being here and learning to live well in this space. By the time they show up I'll be stronger relative to them than I otherwise would be.

Remember, if there is money to be made in cyberspace, then it's as real as the corner of 1st and Main in Topeka, Kansas. HeadWizeFi is that real and getting realer. I'm betting you guys can stick it out and be the realest place of all in Headphonedom. And the chips I'm putting on the table are pretty big; I've got four kids, a house payment, 13 employees with dozens of dependants, and a picture in my head of me playing ukulele on a beach in Hawaii 20 years from now. I'm thinking a community like this that is well run can work, and I'm beating down Judes door trying to help him figure out how to make Head-Fi make enough money to fly. And I'm trying to tell you guys that it's a very worthwhile thing to be smart about what the heck is going on right now.

PAY ATTENTION! THINK! BE CAREFULL! Then DO SOMETING! I've seen you guys stumble around trying to get a community t-shirt! Successful communities recognize their leaders; empower them; and then get on with the business of living.

I've ended a few posts like this before:

Courage!

Tyll
 
Jul 14, 2001 at 5:43 AM Post #11 of 92
Maybe my point isn't so much that Sony or any other single brand would open a competative site, but that, as time goes on, better and better community building technologies will develope.

aos >>> Because it would be a huge forum, very well known and with very wide audience. Which means after a while the only thing left would be ashes from all the flame wars.

Remember that I said I'm worried about someone smart coming along; a lot of people believe what you just said, and are working on ways of making cool community. Someone will figure better things out and someone like Sony, or maybe Soundstage or Stereophile or Circuit City, will build one.

But remember also that I said it is "authentic" community that will win in the end---as long it has all the other componants of community (Commerce, public service infrastructure, educational resource, just government).

Here's the important bit: I've seen dozens of threads about how everyone here is drawn to this place because of the....love...that is shared among the members. I don't mean some goopy smarmy love, I mean genuine inter-personal care and concern for each other in the compartment of our lives called headpones. I'll be the first one to tell one of you guys to get a life if I thought you were over the edge all the time, but I also think that it's OK to have a number of support networks in your life that are real. After all, what does that mean: "Get real"? Once you are in the here-and-now with someone else and get told to get real, doesn't that mean to genuinely engage person-to-person with sincere emotion. And shouldn't that sincere emotion be benevolently motivated? Well what the hell does that look like anyway? I'll tell you, it looks JUST like this place. And I don't mean HeadWize or Head-Fi, I mean youz guyz!

MY POINT IS YOU ALL HAVE DONE SOMETHING GREAT! DON'T SCREW IT UP!

Don't let it get diffused out there amidst the soon-to-be-myriad consumer electronics web peep shows. You guys should be "blood on you sword and flesh between your teeth" driven to make this place as sucessful as possible so that other folks with good hearts and special interests rise up and make web communities as vital and whole as this.

I'm sorry, bottom line I see life as a battle between good and evil, and though my armpits stink and there is hair growing out my nose, I know what side I'm on and I'm not afraid to defend my stand. Please don't read me wrong: I don't think Jude is good and Chu is evil AT ALL! Like Jude keeps saying, this is not a competition. In my view, it isn't a competition between Jude and Chu, but it is a competition between the relatively small number of people who have the power of position, ability, and resource to make change in winning over the attention of the masses; and the winner gets to decide how the profit of that interchange gets distributed. If Sony won, they'd make Sony bigger. Heck, if I won (by starting my own web community) I'd make HeadRoom bigger. (But I know I can't make a headphone community that would work, that's why I shut down my discussion area months ago---so that I wouldn't in the least dilute HeadWize; and why Todd and I get paid to hang around here, too). But if The folks at Head-Fi won, they'd make the headphone community bigger. If I'm part of that community then HeadRoom gets bigger, too. I'm betting Sony won't be around here any time soon, and I'll gain on them by being here and learning to live well in this space. By the time they show up I'll be stronger relative to them than I otherwise would be.

Remember, if there is money to be made in cyberspace, then it's as real as the corner of 1st and Main in Topeka, Kansas. HeadWizeFi is that real and getting realer. I'm betting you guys can stick it out and be the realest place of all in Headphonedom. And the chips I'm putting on the table are pretty big; I've got four kids, a house payment, 13 employees with dozens of dependants, and a picture in my head of me playing ukulele on a beach in Hawaii 20 years from now. I'm thinking a community like this that is well run can work, and I'm beating down Judes door trying to help him figure out how to make Head-Fi make enough money to fly. And I'm trying to tell you guys that it's a very worthwhile thing to be smart about what the heck is going on right now.

PAY ATTENTION! THINK! BE CAREFULL! Then DO SOMETING! I've seen you guys stumble around trying to get a community t-shirt! Successful communities recognize their leaders; empower them; and then get on with the business of living.

I've ended a few posts like this before:

Courage!

Tyll
 
Jul 14, 2001 at 5:47 AM Post #12 of 92
dammit, I just have to come out and say it: Tyll, you rule man!

I know that we'll become strong enough to shape the very headphones we put on our heads. Companies will listen to us, here what we want, what we like and don't like, and give it to us. They'll listen because we, and we alone really, reprisent what their customers want. As Tyll told me on the phone, we can get them to stop making junk. We can't beat Sony, but we can tell anyone that's willing to listen what kind of headphones to get that will give them the most for their money, be it $10 or $100 or more. Isn't that just cool?
 
Jul 14, 2001 at 6:00 AM Post #13 of 92
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyll Hertsens
I've seen you guys stumble around trying to get a community t-shirt!


Oy.... What a way with words. Well, I wasn't going to say anything yet, but this is already well in the works -- I'll be looking at the first drafts of T-shirt graphics in the middle of next week. Our graphics people promised us cool new logos -- we'll see how they come through. No firm ETA on shirt availability, but it shouldn't be that long. Members can help support the site by buying what I hope are going to be very cool shirts -- it's a form of support that I thought might go over well.

I feel confident this community will be fine and strong going forward. It'll be a team effort. It'll be fun. And, based on Tyll's posts, I think he'll be among the sponsors I'm lining up.
wink.gif


Quote:

Originally posted by Tyll Hertsens
Now, I too, have had some private talks with Jude. And I think he’d do a great job of getting this community and it’s growth paid for. And I don’t actually get along with him all that great. We clash a good bit, and we develop a good bit of tension about how we see the future. But, if it was any other way I’d be uncomfortable ‘cause I know Sony will be knocking on our door one day, and Jude would do the deal just fine.


It's just that we agree to disagree. But you'll still be a sponsor, right? Heheh.
 
Jul 14, 2001 at 6:15 AM Post #14 of 92
Quote:

Successful communities recognize their leaders; empower them; and then get on with the business of living.


Unfortunately, when money is involved, the leaders tend to forget about the community. I'm starting to get a bad feeling about all this.
frown.gif
 
Jul 14, 2001 at 6:23 AM Post #15 of 92
Quote:

Originally posted by joelongwood


Unfortunately, when money is involved, the leaders tend to forget about the community. I'm starting to get a bad feeling about all this.
frown.gif



joelongwood,

I'm not sure what's giving you a bad feeling, but I wouldn't mind discussing it here on the forum. I'm sort of confused about how anything I'm trying to do here is indicative of me forgetting about the community.

The reality is that I am not seeking any commitments to sponsorship funds until the site absolutely needs it. It is my full intention to keep the community -- even with sponsors -- unbiased and objective. I would never let the sponsors ruin that, nor would the community -- everyone would simply leave if the place became a big commercial.

But, really, what would you have me do? Shut it down when it becomes too expensive? Start charging members for use? Per-post fees? Solicit members for direct contributions? How can we support the costs of the community? How can we keep it free for the members to use, yet still keep it paid for? I'm pretty sure I have good answers for that. That's all I'm trying to do. I think it's easier to distance oneself from the reality of the costs -- but it's not easy for me to when this site has so far been an out-of-pocket expense that will only get bigger.

Is it the T-shirts? The sponsorships? What about this is making you uneasy? Tyll's posts? Seriously, let's discuss this openly to bring out all the issues.

I'm not forgetting about the community. I'm trying to keep it alive for the long term. And I think that's anything but forgetting about it. I'm not after anything but a chance at a permanent home. If you've got some other ideas on how to make that happen, please share them (I'm being very serious, not at all sarcastic). Let's discuss this.

If you haven't already done so, I would like to kindly ask you to read a post I made in another thread by clicking here. In this post, I discuss some of the realities that we're faced with.

joelongwood, Audio Asylum -- a fantastic and successful forum if ever I've seen one -- is supported in large part by its corporate sponsors. We can do this right too. And that's the key.
 

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