[silent-circuit]

So, a little background. I've always been a speaker guy, had stereo setups since I was 10 or so, hand me downs from my dad that got increasingly more complex over the years. Now in my mid 30s I've got multiple systems in a tiny one bedroom apartment, the most involved of which includes Martin Logan reQuest electrostatic hybrids and a big ol' Nakamichi PA-7 Nelson Pass designed power amp. I don't claim to have golden ears and I have pretty severe (though thankfully intermittent) tinnitus, but I know what I like and what a good sound signature is for me. Generally speaking I want it ruler flat -- no bass boost, no 'extra sparkle up top', just let me "hear the mix."

My systems are largely impractical in my current living situation; it's an attached apartment and I really like my landlords, so I try to be considerate and only play at lower volumes when they're around, but being older and retired... they're pretty much always around. I've had the AKG Q701s for many years and mostly used them gaming on the PS4 / PC. They needed (still need, really) a rebuild -- some of the plastics are cracked, the elastics in the headband are pretty much toast... I'd also picked up a pair of the Phillips Fidelio X2HRs a while back, and while they weren't "bad" I wasn't that impressed with them vs. the Q701s. But headphones were clearly going to become a more regular thing, so I decided to see what was out there a little higher up the food chain. So far with each big jump I've made, the results have been worthwhile, on the headphones side.

As tends to be the case, this place worked its magic on me / infected me with its sickness, and soon I was looking at IEMs, which I'd never really considered before. I hate 'earpods' and earbuds in general, from how they sound to how insecure and awkward they feel (to me! To each their own of course)., Hadn't ever really thought about something that sealed in the ear canal and was more secure, or gave better sound quality. But wow, the IEM people here were super active and very in to it, and the idea of focusing like 90% of the materials budget in to the drivers and enclosure tuning made /sense/ to me. No big fancy suspension headband setup, no leather and stainless and such (or much less of it at least), just metal or resin, some drivers. Plus the higher up I went with headphones the less comfortable I was taking them out of the house, both for fear of them getting damaged and just looking silly. Not going to show up with the Elegias in their case at work or the Koss bag.

Yeah, ok, I need to try IEMs.

(TL;DR -- all of the above can be safely skipped, just background / journey stuff -- I am very long winded, I know. Apologies.)

Mangird Tea:

The first one I got was the Mangird Tea, based off some reviews and a recommendation or two, plus how crazy popular it seemed to be here. It is... okay. Fit is good, very comfortable in ear, but there is a peak either in the mids or highs (I am not a 'proper audiophile' and am very bad at describing what I hear) I find unpleasant. It was fine for short periods but gets fatiguing to almost painful after 30 minutes to an hour. Not ideal. I've kept them and pull them out occasionally like "maybe it'll be different this time" and yeah...same thing every time.

Audiosense AQ7:

The next were the Audiosense AQ7. Reasoning went something like, "Okay, maybe I didn't go high enough up the ladder -- maybe I am spoiled by the ATH-R70X and the AH-D7200." Generally speaking, this seems to have been the case. I much prefer the sound of the AQ7. The thing I find strange here is, Crinacle (sp?) /hates/ these and claims they are all over the place in terms of tone and response, but I know what /flat/ sounds like (R70X being a prime example) and they're not far off, to my ear.

Definitely a bass/sub-bass boost I could do without, which is the main reason I'll move on from them soon enough, but over all pleasant as far as sound goes. Maybe I'm more deaf than I thought, maybe he got a bad set, I don't know. They are also /weirdly/ picky about source -- I've run some less picky full size headphones off my laptop in a pinch before, but plug these in and everything sounds like absolute trash. Like "something is broken here." Thankfully fine off my phone (LG G8X), but sound best off the Jotunheim at home.

Now, they're not perfect -- the afore-mentioned bass boost, and they can sound kind of 'thin' sometimes. I think this may have more to do with the eartips I use than the IEMs themselves. The medium size black silicone 'mushroom' things they came with are the most comfortable for me, and I am not willing to sacrifice comfort for sound quality when it comes to IEMs, as I already find them less comfortable than full size over-ears to begin with. I am willing to try aftermarket tips and welcome any recommendations here. I've seen the name Spinfit more than once but haven't really looked in to tips much yet. They also get painful after a couple hours -- ears get sore. The Mangird Tea shell is much more comfortable, but also a good bit smaller, with a less 'flat in the back' profile. God, please don't tell me I need to look in to customs.

Campfire Audio Orion:

I got these to try out the Campfire 'house sound', which was in hindsight probably a bad idea as they supposedly 'reference' tuned unlike almost all their other offerings. They're... okay, I guess. Again, supposedly flat / reference tuned, but listening to these then the R70X and something always feels like it's missing. May be the eartips again. May just be that I don't like BA-only sound. I am still very much learning.

The others (Blon BL-05, KZ ZSX, Tripowin TP10):

God I hate all of these for one reason or another, but I bought them as a package deal for a fair price, so at least I won't lose much selling them on. I may not even bother as, outside of the BL-05 I would not wish to inflict them on others. The TP10 in particular is just trash and it's insane to think retail is $70 on it; I wouldn't use these if they were $20 and I had nothing else. Would rather listen to crappy laptop speakers. The ZSX is tolerable for short periods, but peaky and unpleasant long term. The BL-05 is... the least bad, but that's no victory. I guess it makes sense, as at the $50-70 price point throwing a ton of drivers in a likely under-developed shell would end poorly vs. a single DD.

(REALLY TL;DR -- This is the important part.)

Conclusion / Issue:

Is it me? Is it the eartips? Do the audio gods just demand greater sacrifices of cash money before they will be appeased? I am fully willing to sell all my current IEMs and add a bit for something that's going to be head and shoulders better, but it's so hard to justify when I can take off $500 IEMS, put on even $200 over-ears and say "ah yes, this is in every way better." Plus I'm now worried about fitment / comfort issues. Should I just give up here and go back to strictly headphones? Help.

 

[Redcarmoose]

So, a little background. I've always been a speaker guy, had stereo setups since I was 10 or so, hand me downs from my dad that got increasingly more complex over the years. Now in my mid 30s I've got multiple systems in a tiny one bedroom apartment, the most involved of which includes Martin Logan reQuest electrostatic hybrids and a big ol' Nakamichi PA-7 Nelson Pass designed power amp. I don't claim to have golden ears and I have pretty severe (though thankfully intermittent) tinnitus, but I know what I like and what a good sound signature is for me. Generally speaking I want it ruler flat -- no bass boost, no 'extra sparkle up top', just let me "hear the mix."

My systems are largely impractical in my current living situation; it's an attached apartment and I really like my landlords, so I try to be considerate and only play at lower volumes when they're around, but being older and retired... they're pretty much always around. I've had the AKG Q701s for many years and mostly used them gaming on the PS4 / PC. They needed (still need, really) a rebuild -- some of the plastics are cracked, the elastics in the headband are pretty much toast... I'd also picked up a pair of the Phillips Fidelio X2HRs a while back, and while they weren't "bad" I wasn't that impressed with them vs. the Q701s. But headphones were clearly going to become a more regular thing, so I decided to see what was out there a little higher up the food chain. So far with each big jump I've made, the results have been worthwhile, on the headphones side.

As tends to be the case, this place worked its magic on me / infected me with its sickness, and soon I was looking at IEMs, which I'd never really considered before. I hate 'earpods' and earbuds in general, from how they sound to how insecure and awkward they feel (to me! To each their own of course)., Hadn't ever really thought about something that sealed in the ear canal and was more secure, or gave better sound quality. But wow, the IEM people here were super active and very in to it, and the idea of focusing like 90% of the materials budget in to the drivers and enclosure tuning made /sense/ to me. No big fancy suspension headband setup, no leather and stainless and such (or much less of it at least), just metal or resin, some drivers. Plus the higher up I went with headphones the less comfortable I was taking them out of the house, both for fear of them getting damaged and just looking silly. Not going to show up with the Elegias in their case at work or the Koss bag.

Yeah, ok, I need to try IEMs.

(TL;DR -- all of the above can be safely skipped, just background / journey stuff -- I am very long winded, I know. Apologies.)

Mangird Tea:

The first one I got was the Mangird Tea, based off some reviews and a recommendation or two, plus how crazy popular it seemed to be here. It is... okay. Fit is good, very comfortable in ear, but there is a peak either in the mids or highs (I am not a 'proper audiophile' and am very bad at describing what I hear) I find unpleasant. It was fine for short periods but gets fatiguing to almost painful after 30 minutes to an hour. Not ideal. I've kept them and pull them out occasionally like "maybe it'll be different this time" and yeah...same thing every time.

Audiosense AQ7:

The next were the Audiosense AQ7. Reasoning went something like, "Okay, maybe I didn't go high enough up the ladder -- maybe I am spoiled by the ATH-R70X and the AH-D7200." Generally speaking, this seems to have been the case. I much prefer the sound of the AQ7. The thing I find strange here is, Crinacle (sp?) /hates/ these and claims they are all over the place in terms of tone and response, but I know what /flat/ sounds like (R70X being a prime example) and they're not far off, to my ear.

Definitely a bass/sub-bass boost I could do without, which is the main reason I'll move on from them soon enough, but over all pleasant as far as sound goes. Maybe I'm more deaf than I thought, maybe he got a bad set, I don't know. They are also /weirdly/ picky about source -- I've run some less picky full size headphones off my laptop in a pinch before, but plug these in and everything sounds like absolute trash. Like "something is broken here." Thankfully fine off my phone (LG G8X), but sound best off the Jotunheim at home.

Now, they're not perfect -- the afore-mentioned bass boost, and they can sound kind of 'thin' sometimes. I think this may have more to do with the eartips I use than the IEMs themselves. The medium size black silicone 'mushroom' things they came with are the most comfortable for me, and I am not willing to sacrifice comfort for sound quality when it comes to IEMs, as I already find them less comfortable than full size over-ears to begin with. I am willing to try aftermarket tips and welcome any recommendations here. I've seen the name Spinfit more than once but haven't really looked in to tips much yet. They also get painful after a couple hours -- ears get sore. The Mangird Tea shell is much more comfortable, but also a good bit smaller, with a less 'flat in the back' profile. God, please don't tell me I need to look in to customs.

Campfire Audio Orion:

I got these to try out the Campfire 'house sound', which was in hindsight probably a bad idea as they supposedly 'reference' tuned unlike almost all their other offerings. They're... okay, I guess. Again, supposedly flat / reference tuned, but listening to these then the R70X and something always feels like it's missing. May be the eartips again. May just be that I don't like BA-only sound. I am still very much learning.

The others (Blon BL-05, KZ ZSX, Tripowin TP10):

God I hate all of these for one reason or another, but I bought them as a package deal for a fair price, so at least I won't lose much selling them on. I may not even bother as, outside of the BL-05 I would not wish to inflict them on others. The TP10 in particular is just trash and it's insane to think retail is $70 on it; I wouldn't use these if they were $20 and I had nothing else. Would rather listen to crappy laptop speakers. The ZSX is tolerable for short periods, but peaky and unpleasant long term. The BL-05 is... the least bad, but that's no victory. I guess it makes sense, as at the $50-70 price point throwing a ton of drivers in a likely under-developed shell would end poorly vs. a single DD.

(REALLY TL;DR -- This is the important part.)

Conclusion / Issue:

Is it me? Is it the eartips? Do the audio gods just demand greater sacrifices of cash money before they will be appeased? I am fully willing to sell all my current IEMs and add a bit for something that's going to be head and shoulders better, but it's so hard to justify when I can take off $500 IEMS, put on even $200 over-ears and say "ah yes, this is in every way better." Plus I'm now worried about fitment / comfort issues. Should I just give up here and go back to strictly headphones? Help.

Some people never cross over from speakers to headphones or headphones to IEMs. I have slowly crossed over from speakers to headphones then slowly to IEMs. But 10 years ago I would have never believed I would have wanted IEMs. And even though I have been really into IEMs and written reviews on a few, I don’t consider myself an expert. I only use one brand of DAP and have a few IEMs and headphones. But I have over the years guessed at why I like the stuff I like.

I’m not going to recommend products to you but methodology to use.

First off it’s really about the whole system, meaning it’s the DAP or desktop and the cable and the IEMs and tips. And after a while you will slowly start migrating to one IEM. Funny too as it’s not that we get totally locked into one signature that we judge as correct. That’s really not true I think. Many folks have a couple IEMs they use and like. But at your time and place you have to find just one. Once you find it the listening sessions will get long and the equipment will fall away. Equipment doesn’t really matter. What matters is your psychology and how you can learn to forget about equipment and focus again on music.

There are many many response characters and styles of what people use. There is no right or wrong to this. The money thing can be a stairway where, yes, more money buys better gear. The posts you read about some $40 IEM that is better than the popular $2000 IEM are simply not true. That’s not to say you couldn’t find an enjoyable $40 IEM. But the key is to finish Head-Fi. To be so done that you don’t want to upgrade and don’t care to upgrade. At that point new IEMs can be released and new reviews will emerge but you still could care less as your satisfaction in hearing music is fulfilled.

So in many ways that’s timeless. Same as some classic musical instrument that still does it’s job and sounds beautiful. The industry is just that and as an industry it has to keep creating obsolescence so that perfectly good equipment gets looked down on. Still there will be better stuff in ten years. But if you really find an IEM you like it’s not strange to think it would be good for a five to ten year run.

Obviously we have had a huge change in the last ten years as far as IEM technology and to be honest, I probably would not want a 10 year old IEM whatever it was. Also DAPs have changed a lot too and now work smoothly offering playback of all the file formats. DAPs have also increased in power and can get close or equal to desktop power.

The IEM testing:

The problem is you already have really good hearing to be able to judge bad replay. Many don’t know what bad sound is. But we can list the facts like timbre, soundstage, pace, and coherence. You are simply trying to make the IEM experience work but so far they sound off to you.

The way to win is to try and identify what your personal sound signature is. Once that is figured out you can get closer to knowing yourself. With me I learned that I don’t like forward midrange. Still that leaves a pretty big window of what would work for me. Still something that’s not often talked about is balance. That word is not reference to an even sound response, it’s in reference to the balance of elements inside of your preferred response. So I like V responses but even with a V response if the bass is too over powering it not going to sound right. Most of the time after you really know the style of playback you like you will know in minutes of listening if the IEM will work. Not to be negative but the second stage is if you could live with the IEM for 3 years or 5 years. You will not learn that unless you attempt ownership.

What can happen is an IEM can somehow become boring. When that happens your music also becomes boring.

So it turns out this is really more of an art than a science as IEMs may not graph exactly like you think a perfect IEM would graph out to be. Most have subtle color or an artifact of sorts somewhere which could sound wrong to some, but will end up right for you. So it’s a fact there are probably no perfect IEMs. And to actually study IEMs, many are missing parts of the response which doesn’t make sense at first. You would think flagships would be totally complete but they are not. Now the confusing part is reviewers (who make long lists) writing about 100 IEMs somehow are able to subjectivity judge them and put them in order of quality even though they are massively different. There is probably some truth to how they do their work, but there will always be exceptions.

The fact is there are some IEMs that do many genres well, and some that seem to specialize in one or two musical genres. Also people will own one or two to go with their favorite genre of music.

There is no easy path except to make purchases and do demos and make mistakes. It’s a personal journey that no one can do for you. And for many there is not much going in reverse. Meaning it seems we have people who really like headphones and IEMs and seem to slowly forget about speakers. They may have speaker systems for parties or for some use, but will recoil to IEMs or headphones when given the chance.

But it took me at least 5 years to slowly migrate over from full-size to IEMs. Actually I’m not sure it was planned, it was just this progress where I used IEMs outside and then started using them 100% of the time inside, then got curious how good I could make IEMs sound.

Cheers!


Somehow I escaped giving you product examples to try. Most of us here after getting some style of success will want to give buying advice as we forget just how singular this whole process is. Our viewpoint is so myopic we simply think what we have will work for others, when really nothing could be farther from the truth.

 

[surfgeorge]

wow - you did an amazing job at describing your background, journey and issues!

A couple of notes on the subject.
Fit and tips are extremely important with IEMs, both in terms of sound and comfort.
I'd really get a selection of tips and experiment. Spinfits are really comfortable and sound good too, Spiral Dots sound very open and especially the ++ version is supremely comfortable (but very expensive). Final Audio E is very popular, Sony Hybdrid tips slightly emphasize the bass and are cheap.

Secondly, IEMs are really a rabbit hole, and it's hard to find the ones that you really like.
But I have been really impressed with the SQ you can get.
That said, you picked some IEMs with unusual frequency response. The AQ7 has a strangely recessed 200-800Hz region and the pinna gain starts very low.
The Orion has a really big hole at 3,5-4kHz followed by a 5kHz spike.

The VERY best would be if you could go to a shop where you can listen to as many IEMs as possible, but this is often not possible.
I think there's no better way to learn what's available and what suits your taste.
Alternatively you'll have to keep buying IEMs, possibly used to sell with little loss if you don't like it.

IEMs that come to mind based on your description of what you are looking for and what you didn't like about the IEMs you owned:

Tanjim Oxygen - neutral/balanced dynamic driver. or, if you want to test the sound signature cheaper, Moondrop Starfield
Etymotic ER2SE or ER2XR - deep fit, detailed, neutral (XR with a little bass boost) in-your-head soundstage
Sony IER-M7 or M9 - warm neutral allrounders

IEMs that I have not personally heard or owned:
ThieAudio Monarch (currently hyped)
Hidition Viento (universally praised, difficult to buy)

Hope that helps!

 

[Stereo Skunk]

So, a little background. I've always been a speaker guy, had stereo setups since I was 10 or so, hand me downs from my dad that got increasingly more complex over the years. Now in my mid 30s I've got multiple systems in a tiny one bedroom apartment, the most involved of which includes Martin Logan reQuest electrostatic hybrids and a big ol' Nakamichi PA-7 Nelson Pass designed power amp. I don't claim to have golden ears and I have pretty severe (though thankfully intermittent) tinnitus, but I know what I like and what a good sound signature is for me. Generally speaking I want it ruler flat -- no bass boost, no 'extra sparkle up top', just let me "hear the mix."

My systems are largely impractical in my current living situation; it's an attached apartment and I really like my landlords, so I try to be considerate and only play at lower volumes when they're around, but being older and retired... they're pretty much always around. I've had the AKG Q701s for many years and mostly used them gaming on the PS4 / PC. They needed (still need, really) a rebuild -- some of the plastics are cracked, the elastics in the headband are pretty much toast... I'd also picked up a pair of the Phillips Fidelio X2HRs a while back, and while they weren't "bad" I wasn't that impressed with them vs. the Q701s. But headphones were clearly going to become a more regular thing, so I decided to see what was out there a little higher up the food chain. So far with each big jump I've made, the results have been worthwhile, on the headphones side.

As tends to be the case, this place worked its magic on me / infected me with its sickness, and soon I was looking at IEMs, which I'd never really considered before. I hate 'earpods' and earbuds in general, from how they sound to how insecure and awkward they feel (to me! To each their own of course)., Hadn't ever really thought about something that sealed in the ear canal and was more secure, or gave better sound quality. But wow, the IEM people here were super active and very in to it, and the idea of focusing like 90% of the materials budget in to the drivers and enclosure tuning made /sense/ to me. No big fancy suspension headband setup, no leather and stainless and such (or much less of it at least), just metal or resin, some drivers. Plus the higher up I went with headphones the less comfortable I was taking them out of the house, both for fear of them getting damaged and just looking silly. Not going to show up with the Elegias in their case at work or the Koss bag.

Yeah, ok, I need to try IEMs.

(TL;DR -- all of the above can be safely skipped, just background / journey stuff -- I am very long winded, I know. Apologies.)

Mangird Tea:

The first one I got was the Mangird Tea, based off some reviews and a recommendation or two, plus how crazy popular it seemed to be here. It is... okay. Fit is good, very comfortable in ear, but there is a peak either in the mids or highs (I am not a 'proper audiophile' and am very bad at describing what I hear) I find unpleasant. It was fine for short periods but gets fatiguing to almost painful after 30 minutes to an hour. Not ideal. I've kept them and pull them out occasionally like "maybe it'll be different this time" and yeah...same thing every time.

Audiosense AQ7:

The next were the Audiosense AQ7. Reasoning went something like, "Okay, maybe I didn't go high enough up the ladder -- maybe I am spoiled by the ATH-R70X and the AH-D7200." Generally speaking, this seems to have been the case. I much prefer the sound of the AQ7. The thing I find strange here is, Crinacle (sp?) /hates/ these and claims they are all over the place in terms of tone and response, but I know what /flat/ sounds like (R70X being a prime example) and they're not far off, to my ear.

Definitely a bass/sub-bass boost I could do without, which is the main reason I'll move on from them soon enough, but over all pleasant as far as sound goes. Maybe I'm more deaf than I thought, maybe he got a bad set, I don't know. They are also /weirdly/ picky about source -- I've run some less picky full size headphones off my laptop in a pinch before, but plug these in and everything sounds like absolute trash. Like "something is broken here." Thankfully fine off my phone (LG G8X), but sound best off the Jotunheim at home.

Now, they're not perfect -- the afore-mentioned bass boost, and they can sound kind of 'thin' sometimes. I think this may have more to do with the eartips I use than the IEMs themselves. The medium size black silicone 'mushroom' things they came with are the most comfortable for me, and I am not willing to sacrifice comfort for sound quality when it comes to IEMs, as I already find them less comfortable than full size over-ears to begin with. I am willing to try aftermarket tips and welcome any recommendations here. I've seen the name Spinfit more than once but haven't really looked in to tips much yet. They also get painful after a couple hours -- ears get sore. The Mangird Tea shell is much more comfortable, but also a good bit smaller, with a less 'flat in the back' profile. God, please don't tell me I need to look in to customs.

Campfire Audio Orion:

I got these to try out the Campfire 'house sound', which was in hindsight probably a bad idea as they supposedly 'reference' tuned unlike almost all their other offerings. They're... okay, I guess. Again, supposedly flat / reference tuned, but listening to these then the R70X and something always feels like it's missing. May be the eartips again. May just be that I don't like BA-only sound. I am still very much learning.

The others (Blon BL-05, KZ ZSX, Tripowin TP10):

God I hate all of these for one reason or another, but I bought them as a package deal for a fair price, so at least I won't lose much selling them on. I may not even bother as, outside of the BL-05 I would not wish to inflict them on others. The TP10 in particular is just trash and it's insane to think retail is $70 on it; I wouldn't use these if they were $20 and I had nothing else. Would rather listen to crappy laptop speakers. The ZSX is tolerable for short periods, but peaky and unpleasant long term. The BL-05 is... the least bad, but that's no victory. I guess it makes sense, as at the $50-70 price point throwing a ton of drivers in a likely under-developed shell would end poorly vs. a single DD.

(REALLY TL;DR -- This is the important part.)

Conclusion / Issue:

Is it me? Is it the eartips? Do the audio gods just demand greater sacrifices of cash money before they will be appeased? I am fully willing to sell all my current IEMs and add a bit for something that's going to be head and shoulders better, but it's so hard to justify when I can take off $500 IEMS, put on even $200 over-ears and say "ah yes, this is in every way better." Plus I'm now worried about fitment / comfort issues. Should I just give up here and go back to strictly headphones? Help.

This.

I just tried the IER-Z1R and although the phase/time considerations, lack of resonance and coaxial design created a very dense and focused soundstage in my head, the insertion was so deep I could feel the tips when I moved my jaw. That's at the $1600 level. I tried the KSE1200. Great detail, but you have to carry around the energizer with a battery that may die in 5 years. Both of their tonalities were pretty far off from balanced with KSE1200 being better than IER-Z1R. Plus, I don't like squeezing foamies before putting them in my ears every time. It's a hassle. My point being as you go higher, I feel like audio gear struggles even harder to live up to its price tag. Plus, detail retrieval is not necessary to enjoy music. I'm not sure if that's a given, because it's never mentioned on these forums.

I'm literally listening to Airpods right now and Spotify. No wire, great sound, very comfortable. Unlimited music, no buying and selling CDs and getting bored of them. I sometimes wonder if the IEM market is a bubble. Sometimes I wonder if IEM/headphone/speakers can ever sound 'good' given how unnatural of a listening experience it can be. Even a speaker setup can't reproduce the true acoustic event. It's a charicature, and the closer we get to real, the deeper we dig into the uncanny valley.

That being said, my AKG N5005 are ok. They have decent comfort and decent balanced sound. Far from perfect, but I got them used for 1/3 of new. That starts to make sense.

 

[Stereo Skunk]

wow - you did an amazing job at describing your background, journey and issues!

A couple of notes on the subject.
Fit and tips are extremely important with IEMs, both in terms of sound and comfort.
I'd really get a selection of tips and experiment. Spinfits are really comfortable and sound good too, Spiral Dots sound very open and especially the ++ version is supremely comfortable (but very expensive). Final Audio E is very popular, Sony Hybdrid tips slightly emphasize the bass and are cheap.

Secondly, IEMs are really a rabbit hole, and it's hard to find the ones that you really like.
But I have been really impressed with the SQ you can get.
That said, you picked some IEMs with unusual frequency response. The AQ7 has a strangely recessed 200-800Hz region and the pinna gain starts very low.
The Orion has a really big hole at 3,5-4kHz followed by a 5kHz spike.

The VERY best would be if you could go to a shop where you can listen to as many IEMs as possible, but this is often not possible.
I think there's no better way to learn what's available and what suits your taste.
Alternatively you'll have to keep buying IEMs, possibly used to sell with little loss if you don't like it.

IEMs that come to mind based on your description of what you are looking for and what you didn't like about the IEMs you owned:

Tanjim Oxygen - neutral/balanced dynamic driver. or, if you want to test the sound signature cheaper, Moondrop Starfield
Etymotic ER2SE or ER2XR - deep fit, detailed, neutral (XR with a little bass boost) in-your-head soundstage
Sony IER-M7 or M9 - warm neutral allrounders

IEMs that I have not personally heard or owned:
ThieAudio Monarch (currently hyped)
Hidition Viento (universally praised, difficult to buy)

Hope that helps!

I heard the M9 are comfortable and pretty balanced sounding. I'd like to try those...

I say as I just ranted about how dissatisfied with IEMs I've been. There's always the hope that the next pair will bring satisfaction.

 

[Redcarmoose]

This.

I just tried the IER-Z1R and although the phase/time considerations, lack of resonance and coaxial design created a very dense and focused soundstage in my head, the insertion was so deep I could feel the tips when I moved my jaw. That's at the $1600 level. I tried the KSE1200. Great detail, but you have to carry around the energizer with a battery that may die in 5 years. Both of their tonalities were pretty far off from balanced with KSE1200 being better than IER-Z1R. Plus, I don't like squeezing foamies before putting them in my ears every time. It's a hassle. My point being as you go higher, I feel like audio gear struggles even harder to live up to its price tag. Plus, detail retrieval is not necessary to enjoy music. I'm not sure if that's a given, because it's never mentioned on these forums.

I'm literally listening to Airpods right now and Spotify. No wire, great sound, very comfortable. Unlimited music, no buying and selling CDs and getting bored of them. I sometimes wonder if the IEM market is a bubble. Sometimes I wonder if IEM/headphone/speakers can ever sound 'good' given how unnatural of a listening experience it can be. Even a speaker setup can't reproduce the true acoustic event. It's a charicature, and the closer we get to real, the deeper we dig into the uncanny valley.

That being said, my AKG N5005 are ok. They have decent comfort and decent balanced sound. Far from perfect, but I got them used for 1/3 of new. That starts to make sense.

Sony sound engineering has a YouTube video describing that they are trying to put the room response in. If you were to listen to the old Sony sound and what the new Sony sound is, room response is maybe one of the key factors added?

So it may be that people that are used to speakers get that same bump from the Sony tune? It’s a perfect example of what could be looked at as an artifact adding to the listening experience. People would be surprised to learn that a scientifically measured style of distortion was added to the $1600 IER-Z1R and was a component to their sound.

This bump could also be one of the main issues that people have when trying Sony gear at demo locations. They may never like the Sony house sound, but it’s pretty much guaranteed they will take offense to it on a short listen.

Strangely that is an area of the IER-Z1R that offers a “hole”’ in the detail. It’s obviously not as big of a hole as the room response heard from walking into a night club at 11PM.

Still that “color” maybe part of the brain burn in activity which goes on the first couple days before success takes place listening to the Sony house sound. What people do for success is try to listen in the background for the first one to four days. All of a sudden after, everything sounds correct in an epiphany...... and stays correct forever. It’s now pretty much accepted that new listeners will need to reprogram their hearing; basically learning that wrong is correct mentally. At one point the brain starts to understand that the vocals are slightly back placed and accepts them. The brain starts to ignore the room response and ignores it like lots of people talking in a room.

Focus in listening is the way our brains learn to understand one person when in a group at a party. The same phenomenon goes on when trying to understand a new headphone. Brain burn-in is simply something different becoming acceptable to the brain. The Sony sound is different. The testing (by Tyll Hertsens) stated that even in well treated room the bass inside the speaker cabinets still reflects-out causing the box to emit waves back and side which bounces off the room walls creating a small bass hump. So even in the best of situations it’s always there and impossible to fully remove unless your inside a anechoic chamber. It’s one of the differences between IEMs and speakers.

Though for me it’s way less complicated; I just like the ability of the IER-Z1R to do bass. It’s not as drastic as say the Atlas or 64Audio N8.

The fact that it’s a mood as well as an IEM. It’s like watching a movie that has mood. The photography has mood then they add music to the movie to make more mood. That’s the IER; as it’s just so much added that it’s a feeling, even if it could be looked at as the farthest from technically correct.

 

[ricksome]

SilentC: Don't give up and go back to headphones. There is room for iem's in your life. I have just 1 to rule them all. Got rid of the rest. Not interested in FOTM.

Beware of FOTM ( flavor of the month ). Comes in all equipment flavors on this and other websites. You need to learn how to sort this out on your own for your wallet's sake.

Good Luck / Rick

 

[silent-circuit]

I think that's the other part of the issue. Nothing else I own can touch the Martin Logans, even in my partially treated, far less than ideal room... And at some point I become deeply bitter about that.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I think that's the other part of the issue. Nothing else I own can touch the Martin Logans, even in my partially treated, far less than ideal room... And at some point I become deeply bitter about that.

That is the perfect answer. The whole speaker vs IEMs or headphone thing has been going on for years and years. What happens is our brains get used to a sound and identify with that sound. Humans are funny that way as maybe it is way better what they like, maybe not? But it doesn’t matter which is better because they like what they like. Look at Porsche cars. Silly rear engine spots cars that if jacked up power wise can be totally dangerous on the road by someone who doesn’t know how to drive one. It’s because all the weight of the car is behind the rear wheels where it should be in the center of the car. I have great story of a novice driver flooring the throttle and doing 360s across a busy freeway in traffic. In many ways the design of a Porsche is not correct yet people love them anyway. There is no right or wrong in audio though there may be in cars?

 

[surfgeorge]

I think that's the other part of the issue. Nothing else I own can touch the Martin Logans, even in my partially treated, far less than ideal room... And at some point I become deeply bitter about that.

I guess so...
At the same time I can tell you that I was blown away by the SQ I was getting when I started to get serious about portable audio.
I invested a lot in a nice stereo system (list price for the whole system around $15k) but my CHORD Hugo 2 portable DAC/Amp with good IEMs is in some ways superior to the stereo. It's certainly a different experience, but a very good one. and you can easily switch between different IEMs for different situations, moods and music.
(P.S.: The Hugo also makes a great desktop DAC for a stereo system... )

 

[Redcarmoose]

The cool part is to go back to around 2010 when headphones were just starting to get a strong hold of a small segment of the audiophile market. Headphones for the most part have never been taken seriously. Now you have companies like Focal who have enormous respect in the speaker world now making headphones and taking the art seriously. Yet go back into audio forums and read about the ridiculous comments made about Head-Fi in 2010. Most of these audiophile communities would not even guess to use headphones full time; let alone access computers to serve files. It just shows how the world can change.

Audiophiles as a whole are probably some of the best snobbery in owning products? That whole luster in life has been the center of audiophile advertising. The company adds are showing a lifestyle and tor pretty much forever headphones have not been an accepted extra of that lifestyle. They were always a toy or an added accessory.

 

[baskingshark]

So, a little background. I've always been a speaker guy, had stereo setups since I was 10 or so, hand me downs from my dad that got increasingly more complex over the years. Now in my mid 30s I've got multiple systems in a tiny one bedroom apartment, the most involved of which includes Martin Logan reQuest electrostatic hybrids and a big ol' Nakamichi PA-7 Nelson Pass designed power amp. I don't claim to have golden ears and I have pretty severe (though thankfully intermittent) tinnitus, but I know what I like and what a good sound signature is for me. Generally speaking I want it ruler flat -- no bass boost, no 'extra sparkle up top', just let me "hear the mix."

My systems are largely impractical in my current living situation; it's an attached apartment and I really like my landlords, so I try to be considerate and only play at lower volumes when they're around, but being older and retired... they're pretty much always around. I've had the AKG Q701s for many years and mostly used them gaming on the PS4 / PC. They needed (still need, really) a rebuild -- some of the plastics are cracked, the elastics in the headband are pretty much toast... I'd also picked up a pair of the Phillips Fidelio X2HRs a while back, and while they weren't "bad" I wasn't that impressed with them vs. the Q701s. But headphones were clearly going to become a more regular thing, so I decided to see what was out there a little higher up the food chain. So far with each big jump I've made, the results have been worthwhile, on the headphones side.

As tends to be the case, this place worked its magic on me / infected me with its sickness, and soon I was looking at IEMs, which I'd never really considered before. I hate 'earpods' and earbuds in general, from how they sound to how insecure and awkward they feel (to me! To each their own of course)., Hadn't ever really thought about something that sealed in the ear canal and was more secure, or gave better sound quality. But wow, the IEM people here were super active and very in to it, and the idea of focusing like 90% of the materials budget in to the drivers and enclosure tuning made /sense/ to me. No big fancy suspension headband setup, no leather and stainless and such (or much less of it at least), just metal or resin, some drivers. Plus the higher up I went with headphones the less comfortable I was taking them out of the house, both for fear of them getting damaged and just looking silly. Not going to show up with the Elegias in their case at work or the Koss bag.

Yeah, ok, I need to try IEMs.

(TL;DR -- all of the above can be safely skipped, just background / journey stuff -- I am very long winded, I know. Apologies.)

Mangird Tea:

The first one I got was the Mangird Tea, based off some reviews and a recommendation or two, plus how crazy popular it seemed to be here. It is... okay. Fit is good, very comfortable in ear, but there is a peak either in the mids or highs (I am not a 'proper audiophile' and am very bad at describing what I hear) I find unpleasant. It was fine for short periods but gets fatiguing to almost painful after 30 minutes to an hour. Not ideal. I've kept them and pull them out occasionally like "maybe it'll be different this time" and yeah...same thing every time.

Audiosense AQ7:

The next were the Audiosense AQ7. Reasoning went something like, "Okay, maybe I didn't go high enough up the ladder -- maybe I am spoiled by the ATH-R70X and the AH-D7200." Generally speaking, this seems to have been the case. I much prefer the sound of the AQ7. The thing I find strange here is, Crinacle (sp?) /hates/ these and claims they are all over the place in terms of tone and response, but I know what /flat/ sounds like (R70X being a prime example) and they're not far off, to my ear.

Definitely a bass/sub-bass boost I could do without, which is the main reason I'll move on from them soon enough, but over all pleasant as far as sound goes. Maybe I'm more deaf than I thought, maybe he got a bad set, I don't know. They are also /weirdly/ picky about source -- I've run some less picky full size headphones off my laptop in a pinch before, but plug these in and everything sounds like absolute trash. Like "something is broken here." Thankfully fine off my phone (LG G8X), but sound best off the Jotunheim at home.

Now, they're not perfect -- the afore-mentioned bass boost, and they can sound kind of 'thin' sometimes. I think this may have more to do with the eartips I use than the IEMs themselves. The medium size black silicone 'mushroom' things they came with are the most comfortable for me, and I am not willing to sacrifice comfort for sound quality when it comes to IEMs, as I already find them less comfortable than full size over-ears to begin with. I am willing to try aftermarket tips and welcome any recommendations here. I've seen the name Spinfit more than once but haven't really looked in to tips much yet. They also get painful after a couple hours -- ears get sore. The Mangird Tea shell is much more comfortable, but also a good bit smaller, with a less 'flat in the back' profile. God, please don't tell me I need to look in to customs.

Campfire Audio Orion:

I got these to try out the Campfire 'house sound', which was in hindsight probably a bad idea as they supposedly 'reference' tuned unlike almost all their other offerings. They're... okay, I guess. Again, supposedly flat / reference tuned, but listening to these then the R70X and something always feels like it's missing. May be the eartips again. May just be that I don't like BA-only sound. I am still very much learning.

The others (Blon BL-05, KZ ZSX, Tripowin TP10):

God I hate all of these for one reason or another, but I bought them as a package deal for a fair price, so at least I won't lose much selling them on. I may not even bother as, outside of the BL-05 I would not wish to inflict them on others. The TP10 in particular is just trash and it's insane to think retail is $70 on it; I wouldn't use these if they were $20 and I had nothing else. Would rather listen to crappy laptop speakers. The ZSX is tolerable for short periods, but peaky and unpleasant long term. The BL-05 is... the least bad, but that's no victory. I guess it makes sense, as at the $50-70 price point throwing a ton of drivers in a likely under-developed shell would end poorly vs. a single DD.

(REALLY TL;DR -- This is the important part.)

Conclusion / Issue:

Is it me? Is it the eartips? Do the audio gods just demand greater sacrifices of cash money before they will be appeased? I am fully willing to sell all my current IEMs and add a bit for something that's going to be head and shoulders better, but it's so hard to justify when I can take off $500 IEMS, put on even $200 over-ears and say "ah yes, this is in every way better." Plus I'm now worried about fitment / comfort issues. Should I just give up here and go back to strictly headphones? Help.

Nice impressions. Agree with the audiosense aq7 and blon bl05 impressions.

I think rather than dumping more money down this rabbithole, it might be an option to step back and buy a few different sub $50 chifi IEMs. See what sound signature and fit u like, then upgrade from there. There's also big diminishing returns the higher u go up.

Maybe some neutralish cheap gear that is rated well are the Tin T2, Tin T2 Plus, BQEYZ KB2, HZSound Heart Mirror.

My current favourite midfi chifi set that can give a neutralish presentation is the LZ A7, it is $300ish but it has 10 tuning options from neutralish to v shaped. Good techinicalities, timbre and tonality. It is versatile cause of the tuning options, so other than bassheads, i think most will find something to like about the tuning. It fits well too as a bonus.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

So, a little background. I've always been a speaker guy, had stereo setups since I was 10 or so, hand me downs from my dad that got increasingly more complex over the years. Now in my mid 30s I've got multiple systems in a tiny one bedroom apartment, the most involved of which includes Martin Logan reQuest electrostatic hybrids and a big ol' Nakamichi PA-7 Nelson Pass designed power amp. I don't claim to have golden ears and I have pretty severe (though thankfully intermittent) tinnitus, but I know what I like and what a good sound signature is for me. Generally speaking I want it ruler flat -- no bass boost, no 'extra sparkle up top', just let me "hear the mix."

My systems are largely impractical in my current living situation; it's an attached apartment and I really like my landlords, so I try to be considerate and only play at lower volumes when they're around, but being older and retired... they're pretty much always around. I've had the AKG Q701s for many years and mostly used them gaming on the PS4 / PC. They needed (still need, really) a rebuild -- some of the plastics are cracked, the elastics in the headband are pretty much toast... I'd also picked up a pair of the Phillips Fidelio X2HRs a while back, and while they weren't "bad" I wasn't that impressed with them vs. the Q701s. But headphones were clearly going to become a more regular thing, so I decided to see what was out there a little higher up the food chain. So far with each big jump I've made, the results have been worthwhile, on the headphones side.

As tends to be the case, this place worked its magic on me / infected me with its sickness, and soon I was looking at IEMs, which I'd never really considered before. I hate 'earpods' and earbuds in general, from how they sound to how insecure and awkward they feel (to me! To each their own of course)., Hadn't ever really thought about something that sealed in the ear canal and was more secure, or gave better sound quality. But wow, the IEM people here were super active and very in to it, and the idea of focusing like 90% of the materials budget in to the drivers and enclosure tuning made /sense/ to me. No big fancy suspension headband setup, no leather and stainless and such (or much less of it at least), just metal or resin, some drivers. Plus the higher up I went with headphones the less comfortable I was taking them out of the house, both for fear of them getting damaged and just looking silly. Not going to show up with the Elegias in their case at work or the Koss bag.

Yeah, ok, I need to try IEMs.

(TL;DR -- all of the above can be safely skipped, just background / journey stuff -- I am very long winded, I know. Apologies.)

Mangird Tea:

The first one I got was the Mangird Tea, based off some reviews and a recommendation or two, plus how crazy popular it seemed to be here. It is... okay. Fit is good, very comfortable in ear, but there is a peak either in the mids or highs (I am not a 'proper audiophile' and am very bad at describing what I hear) I find unpleasant. It was fine for short periods but gets fatiguing to almost painful after 30 minutes to an hour. Not ideal. I've kept them and pull them out occasionally like "maybe it'll be different this time" and yeah...same thing every time.

Audiosense AQ7:

The next were the Audiosense AQ7. Reasoning went something like, "Okay, maybe I didn't go high enough up the ladder -- maybe I am spoiled by the ATH-R70X and the AH-D7200." Generally speaking, this seems to have been the case. I much prefer the sound of the AQ7. The thing I find strange here is, Crinacle (sp?) /hates/ these and claims they are all over the place in terms of tone and response, but I know what /flat/ sounds like (R70X being a prime example) and they're not far off, to my ear.

Definitely a bass/sub-bass boost I could do without, which is the main reason I'll move on from them soon enough, but over all pleasant as far as sound goes. Maybe I'm more deaf than I thought, maybe he got a bad set, I don't know. They are also /weirdly/ picky about source -- I've run some less picky full size headphones off my laptop in a pinch before, but plug these in and everything sounds like absolute trash. Like "something is broken here." Thankfully fine off my phone (LG G8X), but sound best off the Jotunheim at home.

Now, they're not perfect -- the afore-mentioned bass boost, and they can sound kind of 'thin' sometimes. I think this may have more to do with the eartips I use than the IEMs themselves. The medium size black silicone 'mushroom' things they came with are the most comfortable for me, and I am not willing to sacrifice comfort for sound quality when it comes to IEMs, as I already find them less comfortable than full size over-ears to begin with. I am willing to try aftermarket tips and welcome any recommendations here. I've seen the name Spinfit more than once but haven't really looked in to tips much yet. They also get painful after a couple hours -- ears get sore. The Mangird Tea shell is much more comfortable, but also a good bit smaller, with a less 'flat in the back' profile. God, please don't tell me I need to look in to customs.

Campfire Audio Orion:

I got these to try out the Campfire 'house sound', which was in hindsight probably a bad idea as they supposedly 'reference' tuned unlike almost all their other offerings. They're... okay, I guess. Again, supposedly flat / reference tuned, but listening to these then the R70X and something always feels like it's missing. May be the eartips again. May just be that I don't like BA-only sound. I am still very much learning.

The others (Blon BL-05, KZ ZSX, Tripowin TP10):

God I hate all of these for one reason or another, but I bought them as a package deal for a fair price, so at least I won't lose much selling them on. I may not even bother as, outside of the BL-05 I would not wish to inflict them on others. The TP10 in particular is just trash and it's insane to think retail is $70 on it; I wouldn't use these if they were $20 and I had nothing else. Would rather listen to crappy laptop speakers. The ZSX is tolerable for short periods, but peaky and unpleasant long term. The BL-05 is... the least bad, but that's no victory. I guess it makes sense, as at the $50-70 price point throwing a ton of drivers in a likely under-developed shell would end poorly vs. a single DD.

(REALLY TL;DR -- This is the important part.)

Conclusion / Issue:

Is it me? Is it the eartips? Do the audio gods just demand greater sacrifices of cash money before they will be appeased? I am fully willing to sell all my current IEMs and add a bit for something that's going to be head and shoulders better, but it's so hard to justify when I can take off $500 IEMS, put on even $200 over-ears and say "ah yes, this is in every way better." Plus I'm now worried about fitment / comfort issues. Should I just give up here and go back to strictly headphones? Help.

I have no idea because I didn't have any success with IEMs either. But at home, I can recommend you use good headphones rather than IEMs. Look into some electrostats and I guess you will find a sound signature more to your liking.

Many guys say the fit of the tips is important. But I didn't see that they explain how to judge the fit. Maybe somebody can clarify how they should fit and what to look for. Because for me the small amount of trial and error is pretty much all error. BTW I would never use IEMs at home. I used to fly monthly and that's the only time I used them. So this year almost not at all.

 

[sodesuka]

If you comes from speakers the vast majority of popular IEMs out there, regardless of price, would sound like a glare machine coming to life. You'd be hard pressed to find one that actually sounds like how they should be in real life or through a good pair of speakers, it's more about excitement and it appears to be what many IEM guys seek so that's where manufacturers focus on. The few non peaky ones would have either exaggerated bass to the point of being painful or dull lifeless highs, so yeah, it's hard.

One advice I can give you is to not dwell too much on prices, these manufacturers aren't a singular entity that decides each and every product released on the market. Some of the more cheaper ones can put more expensive ones to shame easily depending on your taste.

Oh and also if you like R70X, you'll probably find Final E5000 to your liking. They're both pretty inoffensive with E5000 doing some things like bass better than R70X without being too boosted.

 

[Redcarmoose]

When tips fit normally there is also a placement of the actual IEM shell housing in a place where it will not be moved by jaw movement or some type of physical anti-stabilization. Meaning the tip creates an air tight fit and holds the IEM in support and placement. You test this by listening and feeling for changes while music is playing. There should be slight movement but no change in sound. So it’s all about air tight fit and placement. You put your finger on the back of the IEM and move it but the sound does not change. If the sound changes by subtle movements you don’t have a good airtight fit.

Some tips hold the IEM too close and some too far out. Also the tip has to be of such a shape that it fits into the ear-canal shape. Big open ports will cause a more open soundstage and higher frequency of midrange and treble. Small circumference openings will make bass more intense and decrease highs and mids. The length of the IEM will affect the treble and mids too, as some folks want the sound ports to be closer to the tip opening to increase soundstage, midrange and treble.

Getting placement and getting an airtight fit is essential in knowing what an IEM truly sounds like. Without fit nothing works right. Fit is the difference between success and failure.

So some will want the ear-hooks to add in IEM stability... and they can. The issue has to do with if the ear-hooks are annoying or if they come in a such an angle that they disrupt stability.