The future of lossless formats
Nov 28, 2014 at 10:43 AM Post #16 of 66
I think that point a) wont be important in the future, mainly because of moore's law, if we apply it here. Servers will become better, Disk storage will become bigger and computers will become more efficient.

Side note: i always find it kind of funny how you can't apply moores law in audio, because audio technology is way too subjective to say it gets better. Yes we get expensive tech with every year, we get planar, tesla, etc. But the orpheus is still considered the best, which is a 20+ years headphone

 
Servers are already better and disk storage bigger than when CDs first came out. It's still reasonable to want to minimize file size, especially in a streaming world. This is why jpgs and mp3s still exist, even though we can stream HD movies with 5.1 PCM.
 
Nov 29, 2014 at 10:51 PM Post #17 of 66
Interesting point that Moore's law doesn't seem to have applied to normal consumer audio since the mid seventies. Though it has with Turntables in the last few years and now it is with DACS and obviously headphones. The gear most of you use is not what normal consumers use. The quality of that has been deteriorating, both in terms of source and reproduction equipment, for about the last 30 years. Weird, I can't think of anywhere else that has happened. But I think it is now about to turn around again in a big way. And so does the guy who runs Gibson Guitars. Have a look at all the HiFi companies they have been buying up recently.

Don Hills - yes thanks for pointing that out. I got my terminology a bit confused and didn't think about it properly. Though it is one thing for a skilled audio guy to identify the bits which can dropped out of music without it being too audible, but it will still require some very tricky Maths to be able to remove those bits from a Digital Stereo Audio stream without also losing or damaging (introducing distortion) the bits that you want to keep. They aren't working on a 64 track master tape. They only have one track of digital information per channel. That must be very tricky indeed.

RRod - my point on lossy compression is just that, it is all very clever and seems to work extremely well these days, but why bother if sound quality is important to you? That wasn't true 2 years ago if you wanted portable music. It has been true with PCs for a little while but also not that long. So unless you need a huge library with you there is no point in lossy compression any more.

Rrod - You replied

'*Note I don't mean there isn't a lot of literature on psycho-acoustics. I just haven't seen a "theory-of-everything" postulated for the subject'.

I don't think you meant psycho acoustics, you were talking about audio information transfer generally. If you haven't seen a theory-of-everything postulated before, then you must be the first person to have postulated it. :>}
 
Nov 29, 2014 at 11:01 PM Post #18 of 66
RRod - my point on lossy compression is just that, it is all very clever and seems to work extremely well these days, but why bother if sound quality is important to you? That wasn't true 2 years ago if you wanted portable music. It has been true with PCs for a little while but also not that long. So unless you need a huge library with you there is no point in lossy compression any more.

Rrod - You replied

'*Note I don't mean there isn't a lot of literature on psycho-acoustics. I just haven't seen a "theory-of-everything" postulated for the subject'.

I don't think you meant psycho acoustics, you were talking about audio information transfer generally. If you haven't seen a theory-of-everything postulated before, then you must be the first person to have postulated it. :>}

 
We bother because we can never foresee every revolution. It could be the next big thing in audio may require horrific bandwidth if not delivered in compressed format. We just never know. So I'm fine with people asking the question "how small can we get the file before you hear a difference." But until they've formatted an over-arching theory for when you can' t hear differences, I'm like you and sticking to lossless formats for backup (I'll take mp3s and the like on the go any time). I'm sure I'm not the first person to ponder the limits of detectible audio filesize reduction ^_^
 
Nov 30, 2014 at 2:18 AM Post #19 of 66
The best way to determine how much bandwidth is enough is to do a simple blind listening test and determine for yourself. I have one going on right now in another thread in this forum if you are interested in finding out.
 
Nov 30, 2014 at 8:16 AM Post #20 of 66
  The best way to determine how much bandwidth is enough is to do a simple blind listening test and determine for yourself. I have one going on right now in another thread in this forum if you are interested in finding out.

 
I already know for myself that 256 mp3 is enough. But for storage purposes, where streaming isn't an issue, I keep FLACs on the off-chance my son will grow up with "golden ears". When I set up my streaming box, it will be in lossy format for the good of the earth!
 
Dec 1, 2014 at 11:09 PM Post #21 of 66
The best way to determine how much bandwidth is enough is to do a simple blind listening test and determine for yourself. I have one going on right now in another thread in this forum if you are interested in finding out.

Funny you say that, i did a blind test once and i got a perfecto score. What i did find interesting though, is that i prefered 320 sometimes. The reason was that flac was too revealing. It sound really good on some songs but on others it revealed bad production or sound way too clear, ruining the fun of some songs. Just my thought
 
Dec 2, 2014 at 12:27 AM Post #22 of 66
Funny you say that, i did a blind test once and i got a perfecto score. What i did find interesting though, is that i prefered 320 sometimes.

 
You got a perfect score, but you picked 320 as being better than flac? That makes no sense.
 
Dec 2, 2014 at 12:27 PM Post #24 of 66
Sounds like something was wrong with the test. If you'd like to try again, I would be happy to send you an Apple Lossless file with nine different lossy and one lossless sample. I bet you can't pick out the lossless from that batch.
 
Dec 2, 2014 at 2:09 PM Post #25 of 66
  Its been a while since the creation of mp3. And by "a while" i mean  21 years. Its a fact that technology has advanced a lot since then. We had creations like WAV, SA-CD, DSD playback, and mainly, FLAC which are not what i would call new, but they are definitely newer than mp3. The main reason why mp3 became the standard was that you could store many songs and they wouldnt take much memory space, meaning that you could store (in low file rates) at least 6 albums in less than 500mb. But with time, memory space became wieder, much, much wieder. we have 128 gb micro sd cards and upcoming 256gb micri SDcards. With all of this, i ask the audio technology community, When will lossless audio formats will became the standard? SA-CD and DSD need expensive gear to run naturally, so i think that lossless is what i think is more capable of becoming the standard. I can´t predict the future, but i see this happening. What do you think? 


Back to the OP question, I've been looking into this quite a bit in the last few months.  What spurred me was the actual shipment of the first Pono players.  (I am not buying one, but I am an interested observer).  Yeah I've heard Neil Young talk about this for years but I just took it as a pie-in-the-sky dream of an aging rocker.  Surprise when people started receiving theirs and posting reviews a couple of weeks ago.
 
So what has Pono to do with your question?  Well actually a lot.  The value of Pono isn't the hardware, it is the music library.  They have already ingested >1.7M tracks and they are set to open it to the public in January with 2.5 M tracks available for download.  All lossless.  You don't need a Pono.  They support multiple formats (FLAC, ALAC, etc).  A European site Qobuz is set to open in the US as well, plus a few smaller ones.  There should be suddenly a large amount of lossless available for download which I think is a big change.
 
I am starting to believe that lossless FLAC 16/44 or higher is the way to go as the "golden" format of the future.  That never needs to be upgraded ever again.  I remain cautiously skeptical but that is where it seems to stand now.  I figure we will definitely know by middle of next year if this works out or turns out to be hype.  A huge factor is Hollywood but all signs seems to be that they are on board this time. 
 
Dec 2, 2014 at 2:09 PM Post #26 of 66
  Sounds like something was wrong with the test. If you'd like to try again, I would be happy to send you an Apple Lossless file with nine different lossy and one lossless sample. I bet you can't pick out the lossless from that batch.

well, that sounds interesting. the one i did was a three way 128,320 and flac test. You see, what im saying is that i was able to spot the flac, it soun clearer and showed mor detail, but exactly that is a problem with certain songs. ill use in example the song excistence vip by excision. i downloaded to abx that song myself, and what i found was something courius. The more detail i had in that song, the less fun it sound. I know its crazy, but really bad files sounded good with it. Its really hard for me to explain it, and i kinda feel dirty for saying it. Tough, i admit that 95% of time flac is better
 
Dec 2, 2014 at 2:14 PM Post #27 of 66
The test I am conducting right now is three different codecs (Frauhofer MP3, LAME MP3 and AAC) at three different bitrates (192, 256 and 320)... nine different lossy settings, plus one lossless- all level matched. All ten samples are contained in a single Apple Lossless file. The music samples were selected to be the most difficult to encode well. The way it works is I give you a download link. You listen. Let me know what you come up with... which sound different, which sound the same, which sound best, which sound worst. Then I will let you know the order of the samples from 1 to 10. Everyone gets a different file, so people can't compare results.
 
The only rule is that this is a listening test. No opening up the file in an audio editing program to peep at the waveform. Ears only.
 
If you'd like to give it a try, PM me and I will send you a file to download.
 
Dec 2, 2014 at 8:21 PM Post #28 of 66
Assuming these are all current updated PC/MAC (floating point) implementations of the encoders I think you can predict the result.  Very few people will be able to reliably pick out differences between any of them.  Maybe one or two will pick out one of the 192 MP3s but that's about it.
 
The test would be even more interesting if you can add 16/44 FLAC and maybe even 24/192 FLAC just for grins. 
 
What is the provenance of your recording? Was it captured and processed directly in 24 bit?  You don't want to be "source limited" :)
 
I did a similar test about 10 ish years ago.  At that time consumer codecs maxed at 160 MP3 and 192 WMA.  I took several different high quality CDs and encoded them to MP3 128/160 and WMA 128/160/192.  I then decoded them using my reference player to .WAV and cut a new CD with all the tracks along with the original .WAV rip (lossless) 44/16.  I had a disinterested party randomly switch tracks and record my results.  I used about 5 tracks that I knew well with widely varying type of material from acoustic, jazz, blues, classical to hard rock.  This was all done on an audio-phile grade system with floor standing speakers and repeated on head-phones.
 
What is interesting is that although I thought I could maybe just tell improvements from 160 to 192 while setting up, in blind testing I was not as successful as I claimed I was.  I don't remember the exact results, but if I was better than guessing it wasn't by much, maybe 6 out of 10 or 7 out of 10 at the absolute most for WMA192 vs MP3160  I could easily pick out 128 to 160, and my recollection at that time was that WMA 160 offered a bit of improvement over MP3 160, and then marginal to WMA 192. 
 
Now please don't take away that WMA is better than MP3 or anything like that, all codecs have improved drastically and I was too cheap to spring for LAME coder or other at the time (since it was moot I couldn't pick WMA192 from WAV at all).  The only doubts I have is maybe my CD player or the resolution of the CDs themselves were not enough (although I purposely picked a few that should be).  But at the time it didn't matter, if I couldn't tell on my rig I wasn't upgrading so I ripped the whole collection to WMA192 and was done.
 
My belief since that day is that 256 vbr on any competent coder is indistinguishable from CD quality, although of course nowadays I just go FLAC since storage and network are no longer limited and I like to keep my future options open.
 
If I'm wrong please quote your testing data and file - I'm all ears! :)
 
Dec 3, 2014 at 3:40 AM Post #29 of 66
The gear most of you use is not what normal consumers use. The quality of that has been deteriorating, both in terms of source and reproduction equipment, for about the last 30 years.

 
Why would reproduction equipment have been deteriorating ? Even a cheap DAC on a portable player or similar device can be better now than expensive "hifi" analog sources were for playing cassettes or LPs a couple decades ago. The typical quality of the production of popular music has been getting worse, mainly because of the loudness war, but that is a separate issue. There is no longer a real technical reason for high quality audio playback equipment (other than transducers) for listening with dynamic headphones, or speakers at a power output suitable for home use, to be expensive with large scale production.
 
Dec 3, 2014 at 6:23 PM Post #30 of 66
 
The gear most of you use is not what normal consumers use. The quality of that has been deteriorating, both in terms of source and reproduction equipment, for about the last 30 years.

 
Why would reproduction equipment have been deteriorating ? Even a cheap DAC on a portable player or similar device can be better now than expensive "hifi" analog sources were for playing cassettes or LPs a couple decades ago. The typical quality of the production of popular music has been getting worse, mainly because of the loudness war, but that is a separate issue. There is no longer a real technical reason for high quality audio playback equipment (other than transducers) for listening with dynamic headphones, or speakers at a power output suitable for home use, to be expensive with large scale production.

I am usually quite careful to state any assumptions or obvious exclusions and so I did say that the advent of better technology in Turntables (materials mostly, and smaller more efficient motors and transformers) and DACs and Headphones and no doubt some other areas has finally started to reverse this trend.
 
Cassettes could  be thought of, quite validly, as the first consumer compressed format, it was just analogue compression, which, to put it mildly, is pretty crap. Cassettes were always a dreadful format and only became popular in the Western Economies because LPs were so expensive. In the 1970s, when music was a much bigger part of culture, and particularly youth culture, than it is today, we all used to record each others stuff onto 'green meanies' the awful BASF C90 Cassettes.
 
Some people with 'short arms and deep pockets' only ever copied other peoples records and never bought any. They went on to become great leaders in the business world.
 
But almost everyone stopped using them after about 5 years, once they realised that anything played more than a handful of times and/or more than 3 years old, now sounded awful - whatever cassette brand you had used. Better brands just slowed their inevitable decay.
 
And then along came the Sony Walkman which gave them a whole new lease of life, because of the convenience and freedom factor, which is more important than sound quality.
 
Those of us who cared about the sound, just had a mental list of the stuff we liked but only had on cassette and gradually picked some (but not all, as I have been having so much fun discovering) of those LPs up as we spent our Saturday afternoons browsing through second hand record shops. But we were in a very small minority of people worldwide.
 
The really interesting thing about Cassettes, which surprised me, is that they were the biggest selling format (pre-recorded) worldwide between 1982 and 1993. There is a really nice graph which shows this here. Just scroll down to the third graph and it shows this brilliantly.
 
http://www.stopmusictheft.com/music-sales-analysis
 
Before CDs really started to catch on in the 90s, vinyl had already been replaced by cassettes in the 'bulk consumer market' and so clearly convenience and freedom were far more important to most people, and particularly in poorer countries and communities, than sound quality was.
 
So before anyone says, 'Thanks for the history lesson but that is off topic'.
 
No it isn't. 
 
It is the same situation you are discussing here except that MP3s are a lot better than Cassettes.
 
The opinions of any of us on here, myself, Greenears, Rrob, Bigshot, stv04 have no bearing on what the main consumer market will actually do, because that market cares about convenience, then price, then a tiny bit about quality. It is still an interesting discussion though :>)
 
A typical vinyl HiFi setup from say 1984 owned by someone like me in their mid twenties with a half reasonable job and an interest in music (but not a HiFi obsessive) would sound far better than a cheapish DAP from a couple of years ago playing 16/44 files. Everything else being equal, and using high quality recordings, which is very difficult to achieve and I am not suggesting you try.
 
It may or may not sound better than a top end modern DAP playing well recorded and mastered 24/192 files. Though I wouldn't be at all surprised if the 1984 vinyl setup up lost that competition.
 
You haven't quite got my point about deterioration in quality because you are probably a lot younger than me and don't remember all this.
 
It started with Vinyl pressing quality. It started to deteriorate in about 1973 and within 5 years the QC had gone completely.
 
Many more steps followed along the way in many areas, There were of course some improvements as well, but the general trend was always downwards.
 
Compression of loud music on CDs and Radio is just one of the more recent events, in a long chain of many events, which all have one thing in common. A reduction in quality at another point in the Audio chain.
 
I really do hope, and indeed believe, that has now stopped and is going to go rapidly into reverse over the next few years, and those of us with the time and the money will get the quality that we used to take for granted. In fact maybe considerably better quality than that. But it has taken a long time.
 

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