[ThanatosVI]

Anyone here have any experience with the viablue ethernet cable? (The finished one not the diy version)

Or the pink faun cable?

 

[teknorob23]

Anyone here have any experience with the viablue ethernet cable? (The finished one not the diy version)

Or the pink faun cable?

Yes both. The viablue made version is pretty but very average let down by the connectors. The base wire is pretty good and works well with decent connectors. Pink faun cable is good, very natural and airy with good separation. Overall smooth sounding maybe a little lacking in dynamics and impact. IMO, there are are better cables for less money

 

[bluenight]

So fully back on topic...

Over time I've happily invested in premium digital cables (Atlas Mavros) and other RCA or speaker cables - Atlas again and they've made significant improvements. My reasonably priced mains power upgrades have helped too (prefer not to spend too much on this). However for a streamer that I don't use that much, I've never thought about upgrading the network lead. Computer data has the best error correction in audio so why bother ? Bit like HDMI - apparently no benefit there either.

Being that I've recently replaced my Denon HEOS Link HS2 with a Primare that clearly sounds better when streaming identical material, this made me wonder. They're both streaming 1s and 0s and both feeding the same DAC with the same coax so how could they possibly sound different ? There's clearly more to digital that anyone can confidently explain. So having read online that you can buy upgraded patch leads at not a huge cost I decided to give it a go - I can always send it back if it made no difference.
Having read some positive reviews online(Audiobacon and other end users), I decided to buy some Supra CAT8 with the nifty looking Telegartner plugs (don't know if they claim to help performance or not!).

It arrived earlier today, so I started doing some comparisons once my hifi had warmed up. My regular lead is Belkin or other generic I believe and I had already placed RF clamps at either end. Sounded fine to me and the output from my Primare was good, albeit with some occasional harsh digital audio issue traits similar to what jitter can present e.g. vocal sibilance or detail smear. Interestingly this only happens when network streaming and not when I play files from a USB stick. I ripped a file to .WAV to compare with CD to confirm.

So does the Supra CAT8 sound different ? Definitely YES. Considering the error checking that goes on with Ethernet data, this really makes no sense. Plus there's a buffer on the streamer so hardly a completely live stream. This cable was bought out of curiosity and I was fully willing to send it back for a refund but it's staying. I've done multiple A/B comparisons between the two leads and had the same music on CD as a reference (all through same DAC). The Supra sounds more like the CD - allowing a smoother and more clearly defined sound to be presented and making it easier to hear the layers of music more clearly. It has less attack and sounds less tizzy than my previous cable, which at first I thought was a down point but with extended listening and with CD as my reference I can confirm it is a clearly upgrade. I have used multiple music tracks for comparison so I know it's not to do with other factors. I have compared and upgraded many components in my hifi over the years so know when there is a change in performance.

So does this make sense? No, but the change is distinctly there. Hopefully at some point, someone can explain why there is a difference rather than the guessing games that seem to go on and manufacturers all stating different reasons. We've learned a bit more over time why a different digital coax can make a difference and the limitations of Toslink on home equipment, so hopefully here we can too. USB is another growing area as well - interesting that many of them have RF clamps built in, even for printers and other computer equipment.

Sounds like we have made similar cable journeys. I have an atlas mavros optical cable and it definetly sound different to the supra optical one. Supra is more smooth and forgiving and atlas more sharp and detailed. Using optical with my tv.

I also have supra cat 8 ethernet cables all the way for my high priority gear. I had some cheap generic cat 5 before. And supra definetly brought more class and refinement to the sound and less flat to my ears and less glare or sibilance.

Oh and some grun cables connected to my rca atlas mavros then connected to empty power socket on my niagara1000 power conditioner helped to clean up the sound for my hugo 2 connected with spdif to same cambridge cxnv2 streamer. Lower noise floor blacker background. The atlas mavros rca with grun is only connected from streamer to Lake People RS02 HP amp and is in no contact with my hugo 2 really. But improves the sound anyway for my hugo 2 draining away rf from streamers internal circuits.

So i agree there is probebly more going on with digital then we can explain. Maybe its more similar to analogue then we think. Maybe timing, noise, jitter has something to do with it would be my ramblings. Or everything has to do with noise and its more sensetive then some people want to think

There have been some veils lifted in my uppgrade path. First power conditioner and power cables that lifted a veil even for my batery powered hugo 2 connected with optical to my tv, all digital path right? Then mavros optical another veil lifted. And class and refinement with supra cat8.

 

[dmudan]

True does seem fairly similar.
For my TV, HDMI does a perfectly fine job in my AV system.
For the Supra optical to sound smooth(smeared? ) and missing detail, that would just be down to a poorer cable and jitter. I prefer digital electrical but as we know some devices like TVs don't support it.

I'm quite an Atlas fan too - Mavros cables are very pricey so glad I got some good deals. I've owned and heard their cheaper models so have compared and can justify the extra expense, even in the context of my not so expensive system. Audiolab M-DAC+ with Roksan Kandy K3. I rarely do headphone listening these days.

Yes there's clearly more going on in our hifi systems than basic or common science can explain, or simply we don't how or what to measure. It's not our delusion! Hopefully over time we will understand more.

Also I've seen a couple of average reviews for the Supra Cat8 and some excellent ones - interesting contrast. I only have one direct stretch of this from my router to my streamer. It's now carefully fitted under my carpet and staying. I tried it in my daisy chained Netgear(with QoS) switch and sounded worse to me. I even played around with the QoS port settings.

 

[bluenight]

For the Supra optical to sound smooth(smeared? ) and missing detail

I woulden say the supra is missing detail or not sure about that maybe just different sound signature. I think for bright systems supra can be better and dark systems mavros. I really like the supra to for a lot less money and better fit with the contacts just clicks in easy. Mavros contacts is to big, have to use force and still it doesent go all the way in but i figured it works anyway so i dont need to press it in all the way with force.

I prefer digital electrical but as we know some devices like TVs don't support it.

I dont know what that is, never heard of it.

 

[bluenight]

I am not totally sure after more listening that the tp-link router sound different then asus one. Could fall in the catagory as placebo. Some albums i think i hear a difference and some not.

 

[dmudan]

Coaxial digital is electrical, a description something you obviously could not give to optical digital.

In my testing of several coax cables between my CD transport and DAC, I wouldn't say any had a sound signature. It was simply the same but better or worse. Better cable=less jitter=better sound.
I've not heard any premium optical so can't really comment.

 

[bluenight]

Coaxial digital is electrical, a description something you obviously could not give to optical digital.

In my testing of several coax cables between my CD transport and DAC, I wouldn't say any had a sound signature. It was simply the same but better or worse. Better cable=less jitter=better sound.
I've not heard any premium optical so can't really comment.

I figured you meant it after some thinking, binary low or high voltage. Spdif is the same thing as coax right. I got an mavros 3, 5mm-spdif connected from streamer to hugo 2 dac/amp. It is my first ever bought spdif cable so i cant compare with anything other then the optical mavros then. I compared fast optical vs spdif when i bought it i thought they sounded farily similar in there sound signature. Bringing out more bright details vs supra optical who sound more dark smoother mids. I would say the mavros spdif is very detailed and clean sounding but not forgiving with sibilance on poor recordings. Otherwise it just sound right.

I also googled digital electricity and apprently its another thing also, could be interesting for some.

https://www.edn.com/what-is-digital-electricity/

http://www.digitizelectric.com/how-it-
works/
"The technology combines energy and data into energy packets and transfers hundreds of packets each second from a VoltServer transmitter unit to a receiver unit."

 

[ThanatosVI]

I actually read this whole thread now and it was pretty painful in the First 19 pages.
Only After that useful Information came along.

So on topic, the Network switch(say a netgear 105) that is in between helps separate the "audio network/streamer" from noisier "home network".
Would a galvanic LAN isolator do the same, to the same extend?

 

[dmudan]

I suppose it depends what your home router is like. I found minimal difference between direct connection with my BT hub to my Netgear. In fact it sounds better for me when direct but will confirm again some time.

 

[Louisiana]

Would a galvanic LAN isolator do the same, to the same extend?

Please look at these:
https://www.amazon.de/DeLock-62619-...ywords=netzwerkisolator&qid=1609258899&sr=8-3

Order and try is the best thing we can do!


Mine arrived today

 

[bluenight]

Relatively cheap powerstrip with RF/EMI filtering (100 kHz - 10 MHz): 40 dB . Maybe good for router/switch.

https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Essential-SurgeArrest-5-outlets-230V-UK/P-PM5-UK

Noise Filtering
Attenuates EMI/RFI line noise that can cause data errors and keyboard lockups, ensuring better performance of protected equipment.

 

[bluecar]

So on topic, the Network switch(say a netgear 105) that is in between helps separate the "audio network/streamer" from noisier "home network".
Would a galvanic LAN isolator do the same, to the same extend?

That pretty much comes down to *which* isolator. Folk chuck the term "Galvanic Isolation" around a lot, but there's lots of different ways of isolating, galvanically speaking. All it really means is that the circuit passes a signal (usually a waveform) whilst not flowing a current from the inbound source. Usually, these are some form of transformer, logic switch or something a bit more involved, like an opto-coupler. Galvanic isolation does not guarantee the removal of noise, it just mitigates RF noise in non-useful or harmful parts of the spectrum. Opto-Couplers are expensive (i.e. GigaFoil at around £900 a unit).

The main isolation strategy in a ethernet switch is the pulse transformer - these are designed to re-amplify the packet signal carrier, whilst protecting equipment from electrostatic discharge and high-voltage transients (the most common use of an isolator). They do little or nothing to block low-voltage transients, provided they are below the taget SNR for the network. i.e. switches and network cards only care about noise that affect data transmission, nothing else. The noise is still present at the inbound connection to your streamer.

None of this is an issue in packet networks - data will flow, and network receivers (including the ones in your switches and Server/Streamer) will error correct until the file is received as per protocol - it just comes along with a load of noise as well

Noise will affect your streamer, by affecting the timing of conversion from packet data to whichever Isosynchonous stream you generate (USB or SPDIF) - none of the streaming protocols have *any* error correction built-in (USB can, but not in the way it is used in audio applications) - every transformation/timing error caused in your streamer will be in your stream, and cannot be corrected by the DAC.

3 things reduce noise into a streamer...

A better quality network switch (i.e. Fidelizer Etherstream, SotM etc)
Opto-isolation before it hits the streamer (i.e. Sonore Systeme Optique, GigaFoil or similar)
An inline filter just before the streamer (i.e. Fidelizer again), but these have some issues

As always, the best solution is listen for yourself, and see what works......

 

[ThanatosVI]

That pretty much comes down to *which* isolator. Folk chuck the term "Galvanic Isolation" around a lot, but there's lots of different ways of isolating, galvanically speaking. All it really means is that the circuit passes a signal (usually a waveform) whilst not flowing a current from the inbound source. Usually, these are some form of transformer, logic switch or something a bit more involved, like an opto-coupler. Galvanic isolation does not guarantee the removal of noise, it just mitigates RF noise in non-useful or harmful parts of the spectrum. Opto-Couplers are expensive (i.e. GigaFoil at around £900 a unit).

The main isolation strategy in a ethernet switch is the pulse transformer - these are designed to re-amplify the packet signal carrier, whilst protecting equipment from electrostatic discharge and high-voltage transients (the most common use of an isolator). They do little or nothing to block low-voltage transients, provided they are below the taget SNR for the network. i.e. switches and network cards only care about noise that affect data transmission, nothing else. The noise is still present at the inbound connection to your streamer.

None of this is an issue in packet networks - data will flow, and network receivers (including the ones in your switches and Server/Streamer) will error correct until the file is received as per protocol - it just comes along with a load of noise as well

Noise will affect your streamer, by affecting the timing of conversion from packet data to whichever Isosynchonous stream you generate (USB or SPDIF) - none of the streaming protocols have *any* error correction built-in (USB can, but not in the way it is used in audio applications) - every transformation/timing error caused in your streamer will be in your stream, and cannot be corrected by the DAC.

3 things reduce noise into a streamer...

A better quality network switch (i.e. Fidelizer Etherstream, SotM etc)
Opto-isolation before it hits the streamer (i.e. Sonore Systeme Optique, GigaFoil or similar)
An inline filter just before the streamer (i.e. Fidelizer again), but these have some issues

As always, the best solution is listen for yourself, and see what works......

Thank you for the elaboration

 

[bluenight]

Noise will affect your streamer, by affecting the timing of conversion from packet data to whichever Isosynchonous stream you generate (USB or SPDIF) - none of the streaming protocols have *any* error correction built-in (USB can, but not in the way it is used in audio applications) - every transformation/timing error caused in your streamer will be in your stream, and cannot be corrected by the DAC.

So is optical out better to use from my streamer to external dac then spdif, i assume optical does not have error correction either but less noise?

Does not a femto clock be effective? as described in an Violectric DHA 590 review. It correct before dac.

"Resampling capability is one of the key features of the V590. This allows you to take digital source signals, such as USB/optical 44.1 or 48 kHz, and resample it to a higher quality rate via an integrated AKM AK4137EQ upsampling chipset. Not only that but it strips it of its inherent jitter during resampling via a Femtosecond clock, (FEMTO-CLOCK), for correction before it goes to the DAC.“

https://headfonics.com/violectric-dha-v590-review/