[EMINENT]

What does one do if the modem is in another room? What do you do to combat the cheap ethernet in the walls?

 

[dougms3]

What does one do if the modem is in another room? What do you do to combat the cheap ethernet in the walls?

Not much you can do about that.

But if you're using a cable modem, even having the modem to router connection upgraded to a better quality cable will help significantly.

 

[gregorio]

What do you do to combat the cheap ethernet in the walls?

Nothing, unless the cables or connectors are broken then there’s nothing to combat.

G

 

[bpcans]

I use a couple of the iFi power supplies for analog equipment. I don't notice any difference in audio, but I do know that cheap power supplies aren't great at producing stable voltages, and can be hard on some analog equipment. So my thought is: iFi power adapters are cheap insurance. (And this is all sitting behind a pure sine wave power conditioner.) So I do take this stuff pretty seriously -- despite understanding that it probably makes no difference.

But I still have a hard time understanding how the iFi on the network switch could change what you hear on your headphones, unless your old power supply was trashing the quality of the power in your A/C mains and that was showing up in your analog equipment (which is unlikely, but certainly possible).

The thing with audio streams and Ethernet cables is that even if you are losing 99 out of every 100 packets (i.e. 99% noise on the wire), you won't notice anything different in the audio because the data for the audio is buffered and the network is still bit perfect even with 99% data loss. (TCP stands for Transmission Control Protocol, and it automatically resends any of the packets which get corrupted.) And a really bad Ethernet cable with a vacuum cleaner running back and forth over the cable which is also wrapped around a running microwave oven and all this while you are running a hair drier off of the same outlet ... that cable is probably going to "lose" (corrupt) a few percent of its packets, which will have no effect on the audio stream.

@cpurdy, the sound quality difference between using the supplied stock SMPS from Cisco and the 12v iFi iPower Elite is literally like night and day in comparison. The iFi Elite being that much quieter by an order magnitude IMO. I listen to music for a couple hours a day, and I had the stock Cisco SMPS in my system for almost a week. So when the iFi Elite arrived it didn’t take long, as I ran through my list of go to test tracks, to hear the increased detail and clarity that having a quieter background allows. Most noticeably with having two network switches in sequence is the sense of there being a much wider soundstage as opposed to when I was only using one switch.

 

[bpcans]

I thought that I’d share this review of several network switches and how they perform. https://alpha-audio.net/review/multitest-de-beste-switch-voor-streaming-audio/. It states better than I have the words for when describing how one’s music streaming listening experience can be improved by the use of a good network switch in combination with a decent power supply.

 

[gregorio]

https://alpha-audio.net/review/multitest-de-beste-switch-voor-streaming-audio/. It states better than I have the words for when describing how one’s music streaming listening experience can be improved by the use of a good network switch in combination with a decent power supply.

Thanks for a great example!:

“Anyone who connects two electrical devices via a conductive connection – whether copper or something else – builds a bridge for energy transfer. The in this case “pulses” that form the ones and zeros get from A to B nicely. However…. also noise. Common mode mostly, we guess. And that is not desirable.”

But then:

“Now we normally play music via a connection where the Meraki MS220-8P throught fiber to a converter (SFP to ethernet). The converter is fed with an Sbooster. Without question, that plays nicely. So this direct connection is really a step backwards. It feels rough and somewhat cold. Almost distant. Jacques Loussier has lost his rhythm and the James Taylor track has some really hard S-sounds. So: not pleasant.”

Hang on, they’re transferring data through fibre (optic) cable which is NOT conductive and uses light to transmit data. There is no electrical connection or signal and it’s therefore immune to electrical or radio interference/noise! That’s the whole point of fibre in the first place.

How do people believe this nonsense?

G

 

[bpcans]

@gregorio, with your obvious wealth of audiophile knowledge, I hope that you were only being sarcastic? Of course I’m was only being facetious.

Do you have any experience with using network switches in cascade between a router and a passive RFI filter like the ENO, or going directly into a music server without using a filter like the EtherREGEN?

 

[gregorio]

@gregorio, with your obvious wealth of audiophile knowledge, I hope that you were only being sarcastic? Of course I’m was only being facetious.

I do have a good knowledge of audio but I don’t think I have a “wealth of audiophile knowledge”. This is because there’s often serious contradictions between audio knowledge and audiophile knowledge and I’m not necessarily up to date with the latest audiophile beliefs.

Do you have any experience with using network switches in cascade between a router and a passive RFI filter like the ENO, or going directly into a music server without using a filter like the EtherREGEN?

I have quite a lot of experience using network switches in my and others’ audio chains, for well over a dozen years. This is between network servers, PCs and Macs. In my current setup I have some audio on a PC, some on a NAS and most on a Mac, all running simultaneously, typically around 200 channels. Some is going through 1 switch, some through 2 switches.

The environment is high noise/interference compared to most consumer systems and I’ve tested extensively, more than a few times over that entire period. I’ve never had any RFI or EMI that had any effect on the digital audio signal on my or any other system I’ve ever used/tested and indeed, there’s no mechanism by which there could be any sonic effect. I once tested some Ethernet regen device for a friend but it made no difference either to his setup or mine, which is a good thing of course. Never tried a passive Ethernet RFI filter or even seen one in the various places I’ve worked but then there’s obviously no point.

G

 

[IanB52]

This was a pretty interesting and relevant interview with Mark Jenkins of Antipodes Audio:



https://darko.audio/2022/08/expert-opinion-mark-jenkins-goes-deep-on-digital-audio/

 

[cpurdy]

I thought that I’d share this review of several network switches and how they perform. https://alpha-audio.net/review/multitest-de-beste-switch-voor-streaming-audio/. It states better than I have the words for when describing how one’s music streaming listening experience can be improved by the use of a good network switch in combination with a decent power supply.

(Edit: Warning: I should have taken a chill pill before writing this answer. While my answer was technically correct, it wasn't conducive to the enjoyment of this hobby, so I'm going to try to edit it to dial down the acerbic wit, or lack of wit, or whatever.)

OK, I'll look. Let's see ...

Anyone who connects two electrical devices via a conductive connection – whether copper or something else – builds a bridge for energy transfer. The in this case “pulses” that form the ones and zeros get from A to B nicely. However…. also noise. Common mode mostly, we guess. And that is not desirable.

Great book link, for no particular reason, that covers "cargo cults": https://www.amazon.com/Cows-Pigs-Wars-Witches-Riddles/dp/0679724680

I am, unfortunately, an expert on the topic of networking and networking standards. (Not an expert on cargo cults.) I say "unfortunately", because it is some of the most boring knowledge in the universe, suitable only for putting wives and children to sleep. On the other hand, it beats law school.

There are strict standards governing how Ethernet works. [The rest of this paragraph met a late demise.]

We take a standard Cisco switch: a Cisco SG110D-08. An 8-port switch that some people use as a basis to optimize it further. Think of Fidelizer. This switch costs about 40 euros. With a neat metal case, it feels solid. The step is definitely clear: more tightness and calmness in the reproduction. The harsh S-sounds are not all gone, but are somewhat less prominent now.

I guarantee you that they did not blind A/B test this. Digital information transferred over the network cannot "sound differently" based on the switch or router or cable being used, because digital information has no sound, and digital information has no noise. That digital information (an exact sequence of bits, regardless of the power supply, cable, router, and switch being used) has no sound, until a D/A converter is fed that information (which information is guaranteed to always be exactly the same information, bit perfect) and the D/A converter produces an analog signal.

As I said, in theory, a power supply for the switch could be such a pile of crap that it could put noise onto the A/C mains, and you could have such a poor D/A converter or amplifier that it picks up that noise somehow. But none of that is coming over the network, and none of that is caused by a switch or router.

If you don't believe me, here is a site that could teach you everything about Ethernet, but it will put you to sleep first: https://www.ieee802.org/

[More stuff deleted.] Even after learning absolutely everything about Ethernet, it would still be extremely hard (nigh impossible) to sneak any bad "ones and zeros through from A to B" over those "pulses". (Not impossible, as I've explained before. But nigh impossible.)

Also, the stereo imaging is better: the space increases. But what really makes the big step, is when we connect a power supply. In this case, the NuPrime Forester. Guys… what a difference that makes! We really hear more music now.

[Lots of stuff deleted.] This claim lacks credibility, because it is similarly based on a profound lack of understanding of what "digital information" is, and how it works.

 

[bpcans]

@cpurdy deleted

 

[iFi audio]

So my thought is: iFi power adapters are cheap insurance. (And this is all sitting behind a pure sine wave power conditioner.) So I do take this stuff pretty seriously -- despite understanding that it probably makes no difference.

That's a nice way to put it, thanks

But I still have a hard time understanding how the iFi on the network switch could change what you hear on your headphones, unless your old power supply was trashing the quality of the power in your A/C mains and that was showing up in your analog equipment (which is unlikely, but certainly possible).

In theory network switches shouldn't affect playback quality, especially if they're used with routers used just to provide wireless remote control to an audio setup. In practice some folks hear the difference with and without network switches still, which most likely relates to lowering noise floor somewhere. iPower PSUs were designed to be super-silent and perhaps that's why they factor in here.

I guarantee you that they did not blind A/B test this. Digital information transferred over the network cannot "sound differently" based on the switch or router or cable being used, because digital information has no sound, and digital information has no noise. That digital information (an exact sequence of bits, regardless of the power supply, cable, router, and switch being used) has no sound, until a D/A converter is fed that information (which information is guaranteed to always be exactly the same information, bit perfect) and the D/A converter produces an analog signal.

Maybe this isn't about digital data, but the fact that stock chargers inject noise into audio setups and any audible differences people hear might be due to lessering that noise. Here power supplies step in.

 

[cpurdy]

@cpurdy deleted

Sorry. I rewrote my answer a few times before posting myself, because I didn't want to be "that guy", a.k.a. a jerk. But I probably still failed, and it probably still came across as asinine, and for that, I apologize.

It's just so troubling to me (and I know that I shouldn't take it so seriously) that these witch-doctors are using the marvels of modern technology to spread anti-knowledge. To me, it would be like having TV shows hosted by people explaining to their viewers why electricity doesn't actually exist. Or radio shows hosted by people explaining how there is no such thing as a sound wave. Or someone writing on the Internet about how two bit-perfect copies of the same binary data sound different based on the brand of the hard drive those bits came off of (which, although when I put it that way it sounds obviously idiotic, it is no less insane than what that blog was seriously trying to claim).

As the kids these days would say: "I can't even."

But if I crossed a line of politeness as I ranted about my frustration with the whole thing, then please forgive me. This hobby is supposed to be fun; we should leave the arguing to the politicians and the lawyers.

And please also forgive my future self when he goes nuts again.

I really do like nice looking cables. Not joking. They do bring me joy, and (thanks to the placebo effect, which is real and is as proven as anything in science is proven) they do make my equipment sound much better.

 

[bpcans]

@cpurdy, it’s quite acceptable on your part to be as passionate about this hobby as I am. No offense taking sir.

I came to this forum to share what I’ve been doing related to my efforts with network music streaming. I started streaming music through my MacBook Pro using JRiver, Audirvana, and iTunes software. As soon as I replaced my laptop with a Roon Nucleus Rev B streamer I heard a bit of how much better my listening sessions could be. And to that end I started reading and listening to others who had similar hifi gear as I do, and who had more knowledge and experience.

 

[iFi audio]

As soon as I replaced my laptop with a Roon Nucleus Rev B streamer I heard a bit of how much better my listening sessions could be.

Yup, many people are rather stunned how much of a difference changing a streamer alone can make.

Sorry. I rewrote my answer a few times before posting myself, because I didn't want to be "that guy", a.k.a. a jerk. But I probably still failed, and it probably still came across as asinine, and for that, I apologize.

It's just so troubling to me (and I know that I shouldn't take it so seriously) that these witch-doctors are using the marvels of modern technology to spread anti-knowledge. To me, it would be like having TV shows hosted by people explaining to their viewers why electricity doesn't actually exist. Or radio shows hosted by people explaining how there is no such thing as a sound wave. Or someone writing on the Internet about how two bit-perfect copies of the same binary data sound different based on the brand of the hard drive those bits came off of (which, although when I put it that way it sounds obviously idiotic, it is no less insane than what that blog was seriously trying to claim).

As the kids these days would say: "I can't even."

But if I crossed a line of politeness as I ranted about my frustration with the whole thing, then please forgive me. This hobby is supposed to be fun; we should leave the arguing to the politicians and the lawyers.

And please also forgive my future self when he goes nuts again.

I really do like nice looking cables. Not joking. They do bring me joy, and (thanks to the placebo effect, which is real and is as proven as anything in science is proven) they do make my equipment sound much better.

Props to you for being polite