[chesebert]

ok ok ok. I was thinking today.

In theory data is data, it "lives and breeds" in the digital world right?

When noise is introduced in the cable while listening to music from a nas it doesnt interfere with data but is CARRIED from start to the listeners ear.

So we are actually comparing two different things when we say it doesnt matter. We think data is data, because it has nothing to do with the external worlds vibrations/noise.

But if you house has f´d wires and leakage. It does matter?

Noise is carried but stopped right at the jack before the transformer. Unless your streamer is not competently designed (honestly how many hifi shops have actual networking engineers on payroll), you should not be able to “hear” noise on the Ethernet line.

 

[OCC7N]

And I just found this


The more I read about these network isolators, the more I think about surge protection.


EDIT:
Emo system recommends two for Audio. Im curisous to know what difference there are between there isolators, they also got 10Gbps version.

Network Isolator emosafe EN-70HD​

Network Isolator emosafe EN-1005+​

 

[griff500]

Noise is carried but stopped right at the jack before the transformer. Unless your streamer is not competently designed (honestly how many hifi shops have actual networking engineers on payroll), you should not be able to “hear” noise on the Ethernet line.

‘Should’ being the operative word. Next you’ll be saying that galvanic isolation is 100% effective.

It only takes the smallest amount to make a difference as we are dealing with exceptionally small signals that are then significantly amplified, along with the results of any interference. The environment and other items connected to the circuit have the potential to introduce this. My understanding is that the standards require any interference to be dealt with to the extent required to eliminate issues with data integrity and that doesn’t mean such interference has been eradicated.

If you accept the possibility that not all interference might be eradicated at the jack then the question becomes whether or not removing it makes a worthwhile difference and that’s going to depend on the system, the room and the listener’s ears.

I don’t think you’d ‘hear’ the type of ‘noise’ being discussed anyway. I prefer to think of it as interference rather than noise. I’ve no idea why you bring network engineers into it either - it’s got nothing to do with data integrity.

Regardless of this, there was an immediate and obvious difference in the sound produced by my system when switching between a standard ethernet cable and the one I upgraded to. The sound was fine before changing the cable but there was no question that it made a worthwhile improvement to my system.

 

[teknorob23]

And I just found this

This is fine up to a point, but there is a critical problem with optical, which is that at some point the optical signal has to be converted back to an electronic signal to produce audio. This conversion process is inherently "noisy"generates unwanted RFI, so if you connect supply your data optically directly into the Streamer, you then have no control over how the electronics in the streamer makes this conversion of light back to electrons. In my experience you can achieve better results or a better sounding streaming set up by cleaning up the signal in electronic form before it reaches the streamer. We have lots of customers who come to using fibre either in this way or more commonly (as not many streamers have an optical network connection) using it like this:

Router or switch > ethernet cable > 1st fibre convertor - fibre cable > 2nd fibre convertor > ethernet cable > streamer.

The problem here is that the Fibre convertors are active so while they act as a buffer preventing noise passing through, they create and emit noise of their own generated converting back to ethernet and of course picked up from their power supply.

All of this said, fibre convertors offer a cheapish improvement over running your streamer straight out of the router, but its not a cure-all for removing unwanted noise.

Disclaimer: i am an evil maker and seller of snake oil

 

[chesebert]

And I just found this

This is fine up to a point, but there is a critical problem with optical, which is that at some point the optical signal has to be converted back to an electronic signal to produce audio. This conversion process is inherently "noisy"generates unwanted RFI, so if you connect supply your data optically directly into the Streamer, you then have no control over how the electronics in the streamer makes this conversion of light back to electrons. In my experience you can achieve better results or a better sounding streaming set up by cleaning up the signal in electronic form before it reaches the streamer. We have lots of customers who come to using fibre either in this way or more commonly (as not many streamers have an optical network connection) using it like this:

Router or switch > ethernet cable > 1st fibre convertor - fibre cable > 2nd fibre convertor > ethernet cable > streamer.

The problem here is that the Fibre convertors are active so while they act as a buffer preventing noise passing through, they create and emit noise of their own generated converting back to ethernet and of course picked up from their power supply.

All of this said, fibre convertors offer a cheapish improvement over running your streamer straight out of the router, but its not a cure-all for removing unwanted noise.

Disclaimer: i am an evil maker and seller of snake oil

@griff500 What can I say buy better streamers and don’t use the free cable that comes with your router. I can assure you $20k+ steamers don’t have that many issues with networking cabling - any well constructed cat 7/8 will do just fine.

Also, stop being neurotic about networking cables and “audiophile” switches.

 

[OCC7N]

This is fine up to a point, but there is a critical problem with optical, which is that at some point the optical signal has to be converted back to an electronic signal to produce audio. This conversion process is inherently "noisy"generates unwanted RFI, so if you connect supply your data optically directly into the Streamer, you then have no control over how the electronics in the streamer makes this conversion of light back to electrons. In my experience you can achieve better results or a better sounding streaming set up by cleaning up the signal in electronic form before it reaches the streamer. We have lots of customers who come to using fibre either in this way or more commonly (as not many streamers have an optical network connection) using it like this:

Router or switch > ethernet cable > 1st fibre convertor - fibre cable > 2nd fibre convertor > ethernet cable > streamer.

The problem here is that the Fibre convertors are active so while they act as a buffer preventing noise passing through, they create and emit noise of their own generated converting back to ethernet and of course picked up from their power supply.

All of this said, fibre convertors offer a cheapish improvement over running your streamer straight out of the router, but its not a cure-all for removing unwanted noise.

Disclaimer: i am an evil maker and seller of snake oil

Thats the only part I don´t like. Its conversion... I need less of that...... I think you are right, it doesn´t actually make sense to buy these things if the signal is not clean to start with.

But in this:
Router or switch > ethernet cable > 1st fibre convertor - fibre cable > 2nd fibre convertor > ethernet cable > streamer.

We still need a DAC and that dac has to go to a pc....and these things connects to the wall, and if the electric signal is dirty there, the whole thing loses its purpose right?

 

[chesebert]

The main noise issue in dac has been mostly solved for like over a decade now. The solution was a carefully designed and regulated switching power supply. It’s in my Linn and in my Emm Labs and both dacs don’t benefit all that great from super expensive power cables.

Honestly just go and try some $10k steamers and dacs. It pays to move up the ladder and stop dicking around with these bandaid approaches to noise.

 

[griff500]

@griff500 What can I say buy better streamers and don’t use the free cable that comes with your router. I can assure you $20k+ steamers don’t have that many issues with networking cabling - any well constructed cat 7/8 will do just fine.

Also, stop being neurotic about networking cables and “audiophile” switches.

Neurotic? Name calling works well in a discussion.

You previously stated that a competently designed streamer should not have issues and you are now talking about $20K+ streamers not having ‘that many issues’. Are you seriously saying that you need to spend that much to get something that has been competently designed? Streamers of that cost still have issues then, just ‘not that many’.

Perhaps I’m not getting whatever point it is that you are trying to make. Perhaps it would be easier for you to say what components you use and what cables you have tried?

 

[chesebert]

Neurotic? Name calling works well in a discussion.

You previously stated that a competently designed streamer should not have issues and you are now talking about $20K+ streamers not having ‘that many issues’. Are you seriously saying that you need to spend that much to get something that has been competently designed? Streamers of that cost still have issues then, just ‘not that many’.

Perhaps I’m not getting whatever point it is that you are trying to make. Perhaps it would be easier for you to say what components you use and what cables you have tried?

I use Linn Klimax DS. No difference in networking cable once I put in regular cat8.

 

[griff500]

We still need a DAC and that dac has to go to a pc....and these things connects to the wall, and if the electric signal is dirty there, the whole thing loses its purpose right?

Perhaps that’s why my power distributor seemed to make a difference. These components are very often connected to circuits that are also connected to the cheapest of cheap power supplies for other household items, chargers, etc.

 

[griff500]

I use Linn Klimax DS. No difference in networking cable once I put in regular cat8.

When you say no difference, what did you compare your regular cat8 with?

Are you using a normal household router or something else?

 

[griff500]

The main noise issue in dac has been mostly solved for like over a decade now. The solution was a carefully designed and regulated switch power supply. It’s in my Linn and in my Emm Labs and both dacs don’t benefit all that great from super expensive power cables.

That’s interesting. I found that my Dave was improved by a different power cable but the same cable seemed to make no difference to my streamer.

 

[chesebert]

When you say no difference, what did you compare your regular cat8 with?

Are you using a normal household router or something else?

audio quest or something. Too long ago. I just use regular consumer router

 

[chesebert]

That’s interesting. I found that my Dave was improved by a different power cable but the same cable seemed to make no difference to my streamer.

Does Dave also use a switching PS? (Okay appears to be yes.) I honestly don’t know. I can’t tell the difference between power cables that are few hundred from the ones that go over $1k. Obviously I have not tried them all and I have no desire to. My systems sound just right to me.

Oh I forgot to say this, I run a dedicated AC line from the breaker box to my gear and I run an isolation transformer between the dac/streamer and the dedicated line.

Edit 2: I noticed you are in UK, why not ask a Linn dealer to let you borrow the Klimax KDS to test yourself - lucky UK folks with local Linn dealers.

 

[teknorob23]

The main noise issue in dac has been mostly solved for like over a decade now. The solution was a carefully designed and regulated switching power supply. It’s in my Linn and in my Emm Labs and both dacs don’t benefit all that great from super expensive power cables.

Honestly just go and try some $10k steamers and dacs. It pays to move up the ladder and stop dicking around with these bandaid approaches to noise.

You’d be surprised.