[Leporello]

I notice you said "usually". Simply being aware of placebo effect can be an effective countermeasure. I am aware that listening tests are subject to error, so I take measures to counteract it, i.e. extended listening in my own system, reverse the change when feasible. Maybe you have Nocebo: https://www.hcplive.com/view/nocebo-placebo-affect-works-in-reverse

Sorry, not convincing at all.

 

[bluenight]

But every Ethernet connector following spec is galvanically isolated. And twisted pair has low susceptibility to electrical noise.

So how is this electrical noise end running the galvanically isolated connector?

For some perspective, large electrical power plants where electricity, RFI, and EMI are at levels far above a normal home, normal Ethernet cables are used and connected to highly sensitive analog data gathering devices. You would think we would see issues there and that there would be regulation in place insisting on “better” Ethernet. Yet ther is not, because it isn’t needed.

The data is never corupt. I think the noise in the electricity effects the dac conversion and may reach the analogue section messing with what we here. Maybe the noise levels we are talking about slips even throug the galvanical isolation maybe it cant block out everything? There most be some gradiations on how clean the power can be that passes through the Ethernet Cable and entering my streamer for exemple.

So how does the data electrical signals pass over then because it sure dosent block them out? Are they some special electrical signals?

I am not that technically bewildred to explain the why. Im just drawing the conclusion after listening experience replacing router and switch original smps to ifi ipowerx and hearing nice improvements. And i dont think its placebo.

 

[griff500]

It seems to be assumed that galvanic isolation is 100% effective, which is odd considering the M-Scaler has this and yet is still improved by cables that deal with RFI. My streamer also had galvanic isolation and yet was improved by an improved power supply.

Galvanic isolation does not need to be 100% effective for the purpose of reliable data transfer. Banging on about data integrity is a red herring and a strawman argument. For audio, this can make an audible difference.

 

[bfreedma]

The data is never corupt. I think the noise in the electricity effects the dac conversion and may reach the analogue section messing with what we here. Maybe the noise levels we are talking about slips even throug the galvanical isolation maybe it cant block out everything? There most be some gradiations on how clean the power can be that passes through the Ethernet Cable and entering my streamer for exemple.

So how does the data electrical signals pass over then because it sure dosent block them out? Are they some special electrical signals?

I am not that technically bewildred to explain the why. Im just drawing the conclusion after listening experience replacing router and switch original smps to ifi ipowerx and hearing nice improvements. And i dont think its placebo.

It seems to be assumed that galvanic isolation is 100% effective, which is odd considering the M-Scaler has this and yet is still improved by cables that deal with RFI. My streamer also had galvanic isolation and yet was improved by an improved power supply.

Galvanic isolation does not need to be 100% effective for the purpose of reliable data transfer. Banging on about data integrity is a red herring and a strawman argument. For audio, this can make an audible difference.

So many maybes, so many guesses, so much uneducated speculation, so much hand waving. Yet none of you can offer any actual objective evidence supporting your claims that the 802 standard is incorrect/insufficient.

This discussion perfectly and depressingly encapsulates 2021. Welcome to the world where established science and hard facts are less accurate than something posted on the internet with no viable support. You would have thought people would have learned over the last 18 months - apparently not.

 

[Leporello]

Drug tests and audio DBT's are not comparable. Drug tests work.

The first audio blind test I read about was in the 1970's, where The Absolute Sound reviewers were unable to distinguish between a Pioneer receiver and an expensive Audio Research (IIRC) tube amp. Similar failures have been repeated, ad infinitum. To you that means there is no difference, sighted listening is useless. To me, it demonstrates that DBT's are useless for judging sound quality. On a related topic, I won't say that all measurements are useless, but static tests such as those performed at Audio "Science" Review, are useless for determining sound quality.

Your logic is not sound. As you probably know, blind tests are conducted in order to lessen the well known problems of sighted tests. You mention the early Absolute Sound amplifier test. How do you know the test was faulty? How was it then determined that the differences were real even if they did not show in the blind test? This is a common fallacy among audiophiles: when the test does not support their dearly held beliefs, they are not willing to reconsider their beliefs. Instead they blame the test. Self-deception 101.

Now, it is true that there are good and bad blind test arrangements. The bad ones may be confusing enough to actually prevent the hearing of real audible differences. May be the test you mentioned was one of these. But in that case you take a single badly conducted test and then decide to paint blind testing in general with a very broad brush because it suits your agenda. Sighted listening is not an alternative to badly designed blind tests. Well designed blind tests are.

You should also note that no amount of blind testing can show there is no difference. It can only support the idea that there is a difference. As for ethernet cables, audiophile switches etc. there is no evidence of any kind.

 

[griff500]

You should also note that no amount of blind testing can show there is no difference. It can only support the idea that there is a difference. As for ethernet cables, audiophile switches etc. there is no evidence of any kind.

Blind testing of the type you refer to is known to be unreliable.

People do not need to satisfy anyone other than themselves. This is the big mistake people make when jumping all over these types of threads with their repetitive 'it makes no difference and you have to prove it does' posts. People are under no obligation to prove anything - they are simply trying to discuss their subjective findings in this area, such discussion usually being drowned out by a few persistent posters. This seems to happen on all forums, some being worse than others.

The vast majority of people who try this sort of thing believe that they hear a difference and it is often significant. You can either take the position that every single one of them is wrong and you, despite not having tried it, are right, which is somewhat arrogant, or you can take the view that perhaps there is something in it and it might be worth investigating, as I did despite my strong bias and belief that it would not make any difference. I found my belief to be incorrect. I don't need graphs or a scientific study to know that I hear a difference.

A truly scientific mind is naturally inquisitive and subjective experiences would usually lead such a person to see if that experience can be replicated and, if it can, to try and figure out why. A scientific mind tends not to dismiss these sort of things out of hand but remains open to the unexpected.

Edit: When I say 'you' I am not referring specifically to the person I responded to, just in case it is taken in that way.

 

[bluenight]

So many maybes, so many guesses, so much uneducated speculation, so much hand waving. Yet none of you can offer any actual objective evidence supporting your claims that the 802 standard is incorrect/insufficient.

This discussion perfectly and depressingly encapsulates 2021. Welcome to the world where established science and hard facts are less accurate than something posted on the internet with no viable support. You would have thought people would have learned over the last 18 months - apparently not.

So many "it cant be" from your side, thats also a bias . Maybe keep an open mind for the unexplained.

 

[griff500]

So many "it cant be" from your side, thats also a bias . Maybe keep an open mind for the unexplained.

Such breathtaking condescension in the post you quoted. And now he's saying that people are making claims about the 802 standard being insufficient or incorrect... despite nobody having said that. It's looking more and more like trolling.

On the plus side, peeking at the quoted post was a good reminder of why I have him on my ignore list.

 

[bfreedma]

So many "it cant be" from your side, thats also a bias . Maybe keep an open mind for the unexplained.

Facts aren’t biased. That’s the problem with this discussion - one side is based on fact/science and the other is essentially belief/religion/unexplained.

So many posts on this thread and yet neither the manufacturers or their customers can point to a single element of objective information to support the case that Ethernet switches, cables, and whatever other black boxes they can conjure up actually impact audio playback over IP. Not a measurement, not a properly constructed test, not tests from a system where two Ethernet cables are switched and the two outputs are nulled, which would show a difference at even the bit level. Nothing but crickets

As said before, producing any of the evidence listed above would result in huge sales. Yet no manufacturer shows such evidence. Either it doesn’t exist or the entire audiophile Ethernet product manufacturing community is willingly withholding the most valuable piece of marketing material they could ever possibly have as part of some strange conspiracy to avoid making money.

 

[bluenight]

Placebo effect is real, no doubt, but I have ways of negating it. I've had many, many experiences where I rejected pricier audiophile gear in favor of something more common. Just yesterday in fact, I replaced a $500 audiophile cable with a $20 no-name cable in my desktop system, because the sound of the cheap cable is more complementary.

I can be mistaken over the short term, but extended listening in my room, with my music through my system, will eventually show up any failings in the device I'm evaluating. The Supra CAT8 fooled me for quite a long time, because it has some very strong qualities. Extended listening showed a flaw in transient performance that I could not abide. The Supra is a popular audiophile choice, so it may suit other systems better than mine.

The Tera Grand CAT7 and Yauhody CAT8 each have strengths but are on opposite ends of the spectrum tonally. In my system, they work together beautifully, each ameliorating the other's faults. If you have any interest in investigating the effects of ethernet cables on sound quality, these two are an inexpensive way to do so. I believe they're available on Amazon for around $10, a fraction of the cost of Supra. Caution required for the grounded shielding, as previously described.

I use supa cat 8 all the way. Im happy with them, smoother and darker more detailed more resolutuon, more musical, better timber, more body compared to generic cat5 i had.

But what do you mean with transients? I know its an audiophile term i usually hear but dont quite understand it. Can you explain what this describe in audio listening?

 

[audiobomber]

I use supa cat 8 all the way. Im happy with them, smoother and darker more detailed more resolutuon, more musical, better timber, more body compared to generic cat5 i had.

But what do you mean with transients? I know its an audiophile term i usually hear but dont quite understand it. Can you explain what this describe in audio listening?

I agree with your description of how the Supra CAT8 cable sounds. My concern is how it handles transients. The initial whack of the transient is slightly damped or softened, which removes some excitement from the music. I am only able to detect this characteristic in comparison to my CD transport and my computer audio system using the other two ethernet cables. The Supra cable is otherwise exemplary, but unfortunately that one flaw makes it unsuited to my system and preferences. Note, these differences are subtle, only evident through extended listening.

attack transient The initial energy pulse of a percussive sound, such as from a piano string, triangle, or drum head.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/sounds-audio-glossary-glossary

More on "attack" here: https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/logicpro/lgsife419620/mac

 

[The Jester]

Facts aren’t biased. That’s the problem with this discussion - one side is based on fact/science and the other is essentially belief/religion/unexplained.

So many posts on this thread and yet neither the manufacturers or their customers can point to a single element of objective information to support the case that Ethernet switches, cables, and whatever other black boxes they can conjure up actually impact audio playback over IP. Not a measurement, not a properly constructed test, not tests from a system where two Ethernet cables are switched and the two outputs are nulled, which would show a difference at even the bit level. Nothing but crickets

As said before, producing any of the evidence listed above would result in huge sales. Yet no manufacturer shows such evidence. Either it doesn’t exist or the entire audiophile Ethernet product manufacturing community is willingly withholding the most valuable piece of marketing material they could ever possibly have as part of some strange conspiracy to avoid making money.

Just back here after spending a morning cleaning and listening to some original 70’s LP’s,
Back when the first CD’s came out with their ” perfect sound forever” and being inially impressed I always thought there was “something missing” and from then until now trying to work out what the “something” was, through various digital components and cables despite the continued derision that ”all digital is just 0‘s and 1’s “ etc and where I am now is my digital replay system is closer to the emotional connection with music than its ever been, ever listened to a piece of music and had an emotional reaction, hairs on the arms or the back of the neck stand up ?, suddenly feel happy or sad ?
For me that wasn’t always there with digital in the 80’s, now, after trialing countless components and cables over that time my digital replay system is capable of doing just that, am I interested in trialing more and more, not really as it’s all to easy to go backwards, especially when carefully selected things are at stake, ever more so when there’s little to no scientific evidence that anything I’ve done can make a difference,
A few years ago I may have jumped at the chance to trial something new and see (hear) for myself but for now at least I’m happy as I am, although I’d always encourage those who keep looking, we can accurately measure and test everything in the audio chain we know about that could make any differences, but is there something at the end of the chain we don’t even now fully understand ?
Don't get me wrong, I’m not offering myself as some “golden eared” expert … in my 60’s now and everything above 15khz is a distant memory, but if to me say a recorded violin can sound so sweet where I am now please don’t try and tell me that it’s all placebo or expectation bias with a perfectly good analogue system as a long term reference,
Equally I’m not denying there‘s plenty of “snake oil“ vendors out there, after the journey I’ve had it became all too obvious that price, fancy connectors and pretty braiding had little bearing on sound quality, solid engineering, the various combinations of quality materials and how they are implemented are more likely to ….

 

[griff500]

ever listened to a piece of music and had an emotional reaction, hairs on the arms or the back of the neck stand up ?, suddenly feel happy or sad ?

You need to measure the number of degrees those hairs on your arm raised by and have it independently verified and a report published or it didn’t happen.

 

[The Jester]

You need to measure the number of degrees those hairs on your arm raised by and have it independently verified and a report published or it didn’t happen.

Don’t you start ….

 

[cpurdy]

bfreedma, with your over 30yrs of extensive Ethernet experience, can you please explain to me why these three cables sound completely different from one another in my headphone system if all they are doing is transferring nothing but 1’s and 0’s. The yellow one is the stock cable that came with my ROON Nucleus Rev B music server. The black cable was made by Network Acoustics. And the red Ethernet cable is from L-Com and it costs $20.

I assume that you have had friends help you blind test these? As in, you had your friends randomly switch those ethernet cables (or not) without you seeing it happen, and then you were able to reliably determine which cable was being used after each "cable switch"? If so, please do not change anything in your system, because it is unique and various electronics companies would pay you millions of dollars just for the rights to examine and test it. In fact, I'll fly to your place myself, to witness this ... you could be the modern day Bernadette Soubirous!

The question that needs to be answered is this: do they sound different or do you just think they sound different? This can be tested, you know.

Exactly.

Within your knowledge of the 802 specs is there anything concerning maximum allowable timing errors between data packets ?

No, nothing in 802 that I'm aware of. Linux (which most devices seem to be running these days) has some hard-coded 5000ms time-outs on some TCP/IP retries, so in theory, with super high packet loss, you could hear an interruption after 5 seconds (plus the period of time represented by the buffer on the audio).

TLDR: Ethernet is almost never effected by jitter as it is asynchronous- buffering allows for problematic packets to be resent and replaced in correct sequence before the audio device needs the data.

^ this

Not ignoring it, just asking what if any specified timing tolerances are involved “less than 1us … less than 4us “ ?
A little off topic but would you say Wireless could be better, worse or just the same as Ethernet for digital audio ?

The issue with wireless is that there are many devices (and other things) polluting that spectrum, so your packet loss rate will often be much higher. In the real world, this doesn't usually have any noticeable impact, since the packets are resent as necessary until everything gets through correctly, but ask an engineer, and they'll tell you to wire it.

I've heard the same counter for years, starting with amps, then speaker cables and interconnects, then digital cables, now network gear. My current streamer and DAC are made by exaSound and are technically proficient and highly transparent. The transparency allows me to hear clear differences when I swap ethernet cables or upgrade a power supply. (I always clear the buffer after a change and before continuing).

I assume that you have had friends help you blind test these? As in, you had your friends randomly switch those ethernet cables (or not) without you seeing it happen, and then you were able to reliably determine which cable was being used after each "cable switch"? If so, please do not change anything in your system, because it is unique and various electronics companies would pay you millions of dollars just for the rights to examine and test it. In fact, I'll fly to your place myself, to witness this ... you could be the modern day Bernadette Soubirous!

(I swear I've heard this before, somewhere.)

Blind testing of the type you refer to is known to be unreliable.

People do not need to satisfy anyone other than themselves. This is the big mistake people make when jumping all over these types of threads with their repetitive 'it makes no difference and you have to prove it does' posts. People are under no obligation to prove anything - they are simply trying to discuss their subjective findings in this area, such discussion usually being drowned out by a few persistent posters. This seems to happen on all forums, some being worse than others.

The vast majority of people who try this sort of thing believe that they hear a difference and it is often significant. You can either take the position that every single one of them is wrong and you, despite not having tried it, are right, which is somewhat arrogant, or you can take the view that perhaps there is something in it and it might be worth investigating, as I did despite my strong bias and belief that it would not make any difference. I found my belief to be incorrect. I don't need graphs or a scientific study to know that I hear a difference.

Blind testing of the type being described is reliable. That is why you do not like it.

However, you are correct about this: "People do not need to satisfy anyone other than themselves." I totally agree! My cables are made from special materials, by artisans, by hand, and I pay way (way!) too much money for them. They are beautiful, and therefore they sound awesome, to me.

Is it placebo effect? 100% you better believe it is! That's why I pay so much for those beautiful cables -- I gladly, 100% rely on placebo effect! And I am not at all ashamed to admit it. Why should I suffer through my relatively horrible sounding music with ugly cables, when I can spend gobs of my hard-earned money on beautiful cables, and personally perceive that it sounds better? Why would anyone not spend lots of money on cables with this wonderful, magical property? (And as a bonus, they look great!)

So you are correct: "The vast majority of people who try this sort of thing believe that they hear a difference and it is often significant." And that is fine, as long as you are not making false claims to sell those products.

In other words, the placebo benefit is for us, the consumer. If we want to lie to ourselves in order to increase our pleasure of listening to music, then more power to us! But when a snake-oil seller is lying, that is immoral, unethical, and in most places, illegal.

So, for example, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this user (bluenight) enjoying the placebo benefits from his "supa cat 8" purchase, and in fact I applaud the brilliant choice of spending his money on something that increases his joy of listening ....

I use supa cat 8 all the way. Im happy with them, smoother and darker more detailed more resolutuon, more musical, better timber, more body compared to generic cat5 i had.

However, I do think that there is something wrong with making technical claims about the differences (since there are none).

But then again, maybe that "Supra CAT8 cable" isn't all that it's cracked up to be:

I agree with your description of how the Supra CAT8 cable sounds. My concern is how it handles transients. The initial whack of the transient is slightly damped or softened, which removes some excitement from the music. I am only able to detect this characteristic in comparison to my CD transport and my computer audio system using the other two ethernet cables. The Supra cable is otherwise exemplary, but unfortunately that one flaw makes it unsuited to my system and preferences. Note, these differences are subtle, only evident through extended listening.

We have come full circle.

Despite there being absolutely zero actual difference in the audio between the $.99 monoprice cable, the $1.99 Amazon Basics cable, the $.37 Alibaba cable, the black one that came for free with some other random device, the $50 Supra CAT8, and the $1000.00 snake oil cable sold by some guy on this thread, here we have the careful and nuanced critique of that $50 cable.

This is the equivalent of comparing the audio coming out of your headphones when you're streaming TIDAL FLAC, and saying that you notice differences in the audio quality between your COMCAST cable modem connection and your Verizon FIOS connection. For example, based on what I've learned in this thread, I could pseudo-sincerely posit that:

The FIOS connection has a more antiseptic quality to it, probably caused by the photons in the fibre-optic connection being sterile from the use of non-organic compounds; it's a good reason to avoid fiber, unless you're using it for professional, clean-room audio mixing. The COMCAST connection, on the other hand, is far warmer, thanks in no small part to the heaviness of the RG6 coaxial wire, with its custom Mylar sheath, which massages the audio signal and adds significant depth and unbelievable stage width to the listening experience. Note, these differences are subtle, only evident through extended listening.

--

TLDR: you should -- if at all possible -- take advantage of, and enjoy the placebo effect. But speading misleading information is not OK. And profiting from the spread of purposefully misleading information is immoral, unethical, and in most places, illegal.