markl
Hangin' with the monkeys.
Member of the Trade: Lawton Audio
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Welcome to the Cliff's Notes version of the "Tempting New Virtual Dynamics Power Cord" thread, now almost 700 posts long: http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showt...threadid=10311
This was a fun thread, and chock full of good info and reviews, but it went off-track many times and is a bit unwieldy for people to look through. So, I'm going to try to consolidate the most relevant posts in the thread into a single (probably very long) post. Apologies in advance for taking your post(s) out of context, or ignoring other areas you think crucial. Feel free to respond here as need be.
These are all in chronological order as they occurred in the thread, but I'm too lazy to post the dates of each individual comment. This may be a little dis-jointed, but that's hard to avoid. OK, here we go:
moogoesthecow:
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markl:
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markl:
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markl:
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markl:
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markl:
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markl:
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markl:
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markl:
This was a fun thread, and chock full of good info and reviews, but it went off-track many times and is a bit unwieldy for people to look through. So, I'm going to try to consolidate the most relevant posts in the thread into a single (probably very long) post. Apologies in advance for taking your post(s) out of context, or ignoring other areas you think crucial. Feel free to respond here as need be.
These are all in chronological order as they occurred in the thread, but I'm too lazy to post the dates of each individual comment. This may be a little dis-jointed, but that's hard to avoid. OK, here we go:
moogoesthecow:
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markl, i have the virtual dynamics basic power cord which i also got on audiogon for the $30 special. it indeed is very beefy, however with 18awg copper, i have a feeling there's gobs of filler in there just to simply make it fatter. as for the sound, it's nothing spectacular, although there are many people who reportedly seem to like the line of cords. the bass is bloated, yet not detailed. forward low midrange, and laid-back everything else. highs are rolled-off and masked. |
markl:
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Well, after some more research, I've indeed decided to take the plunge on the Virtual Dynamics cables. I have the 14-guage Power 3 coming for my Melos Maestro, and a new early version of a cryogenically-treated version of the Power 3 for $75 for my Sony SCD-333ES with Modwright mods. Apparently, this process improves the "flow of electrons" and is often found on $1000 plus power cords! We'll see.... |
markl:
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They arrived. Holy crap!!!!!!!!!!! These things are HUGE. I know I know "size doesn't matter", but they easily weigh 5 lbs each and are 1" thick. Garden hose thickness, literally! |
markl:
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GRRRRRR... They took over an hour to "install". These things look impressive as hell but the damn things are so utterly inflexible, it was virtually impossible for me to get them where they had to go. As it is, they're jutting way out behind my rack in full view. If i had a spouse, she would have issued the command to "send them back", and one would be hard-pressed to argue. After I have completed my audition, I will write to the manufactuere to complain of their stiffness. Maybe it's essential to the design/performance, but It's just not practical. They've got to make it more flexible. They better sound good! I'll let you know. |
markl:
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Best $50 I've ever spent in my entire audio career! A "markl Certified No-Brainer Headphone Geek Tweak"*. (*Some restrictions apply, read below, please) I was a skeptic, now a believer in power cords. I had never heard any other aftermarket power cable, so I had no idea what to expect. Based on the performance and obvious build quality of the VD Power 3, I am satisfied in my mind FWIW that I have pretty much licked the power cord "problem" in my system. Could other aftermarket power cords sound better than the VD Power 3? Probably. Don't care. OK, before my initial reactions, some opening thoughts on power cords: 1. Someone else said it best when they advised that power cords should be one of the last tweaks in a system you already love. The idea is to add that extra layer of icing on the cake, not to "transform" from a Bose into a Nautilus. 2. It makes little sense to attach a fancy powercord to a low-cost, mass-produced component that has many cost/performance compromises. Although I'm no electrical engineer, it seem obvious to me that adding "clean power" to "dirty" "noisy" or "cheap" components will do little to erradicate the nasties in the system. My components, a Melos Maestro and a heavily-modified Sony SCD-333ES each have very tricked-out, beefy, well-engineered and thoughtfully constructed power supplies. No, they're not cost no object designs, but they're plenty good, good enough to really allow a good power cable to shine. In fact, the Sony also has Bybee filters at the AC Mains to further reduce distortion in power supply. These components also have higher quality parts in the signal path, components that reject "nasties" and let a clean signal pass. OK, bottom line, think about your component. Even if it has a removable IC, how good are the parts in there? Good enough to let a POWER CABLE make them sing? If you have your doubts, money should be spent upgrading that component before you swap its power cable! 3. I feel silly talking about the power cable's "sound". I think we should adopt a convention of referring only to the effect the cable had on your component, not the cable's inherent "sound". I refuse to believe that power cables have a "sound" of their own They ain't in the signal path. However, they can let your components really operate closer to peak performance. But a cable's performance and effect is going to vary from system to system, making it much harder to characterize a power cord's "sound". Anyway... 4. Your Headphone Listening Style (http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showt...listening+style), will also determine the degree to which you will notice the power cord's effects. Affects like these are best appreciated by people who close their eyes and focus solely on the music. That said, I still think that the astonishing level of change I've experienced in my system would be readily obvious to even a casual listen. 5. Power conditioners are good. Monster makes some effective and low-cost solutions. I've recently scaled back from an HTS5000 to the new HTS1100 in anticipation of getting these cables. Again, VD reco'd sticking them straight into the wall. Well, the 1100 has fewer stages of filtartation than the HTS5000 yet it still has the surge protection. So, long story short, these results were obtained with the cables plugged into the conditioner, despite a reco that they go straight to the wall for maximum effect. OK, so here's some scattered notes about what I've heard so far in relative order of most noticeable to least noticeable areas of change: 1. Weight and authority, especially in the bass. This is not "bloated" bass to me, put firm and powerful. Over the rest of the frequency spectrum, the sound itself benefits greatly from a increased sense of solidity and body. This results in an increased "presence" which aids in imaging too. 2. All sounds and instruments exist clearly in their own space. This translates to better imaging and a bigger soundstage with increased depth. 3. Music seems "faster" and more nimble. Melos was never a "fast" amp, but it's been given quite a boost. 4. Detail, detail detail. I'm overwhelmed at the number of things I'm hearing for the first time on very familiar music. Lowered noise floor means more music gets through. This system is blessed now with incredible sensitivity and subtlety as well as brute force. OK, that's what I spy right away. I'll post more maybe later. In my history of "tweaks", I would rank the degree of change wrought by the Power 3 in my system thusly: 1. Power 3 2. Getting my Modwright mods for my SCD-333ES (that's a BIG difference) 3. Upgrading to fancy interconnects 4. Swapping tubes 5. Adding a power conditioner 6. Vibrapods (very little, if any noticeable effect) However, it should be noted that without that existing foundation of tweaks, the Power 3 would not have had as dramatic and noticeable impact, so it's sort of an arbitrary ranking in a way. markl |
markl:
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That list reflects my perceived value per dollar spent, as much as a measure of the degree of difference they made. At $50 this cable (if you can live with its absurd stiffness) is a home run. That's what I'm trying to convey. |
markl:
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Well, I was so happy with my VD Power 3's that I ordered a demo version of one of their better IC's, the Reference. This retails for $499. It will go in between my 333ES and the Melos. This model has been cryo-ed by VD for me as well! |
markl:
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"Are you serious that the Power 3 made more difference than tube rolling?! What kind of tubes did you try?! SOVTEKS?!" I've tried a variety of the best tubes in their class in a variety of very good to excellent tube amps. The Power 3's made a more substantial improvement to the sound than any tube rolling I've done. |
markl:
Yay! My VD Reference ICs with cryo treatment and something else called "ProTecX treatment" came today back from its vacation in Alaska! This will retail at $600 but i got a break on a demo pair.
Like the power cables, these things are thick and heavy. Build is great with locking WBT's. I opened them up to check out the soldering inside. Wow! Very nice. You can see that the copper used in this cable is THICK! At least I was able to bend these (they maintain the shape you give them) and get them installed with a bit less fuss than the Power 3's. Outer covering on the cables is off-white/silvery soft mesh that's more attractive than it sounds.
/QUOTE]
markl:
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Anyway, I'm equally blown away with VD's Reference ICs as I was with the Power 3's. My system LOVES these cables. All of the items on the list of areas of improvement I noted about the Power 3's apply to the Refernce cryo as well. These things soundstage like it's a Cecil B. DeMille wide-screen epic. I've now started hearing sounds emmanating from *behind me*. Bass galore. The sound is somehow more forceful and substantial across the spectrum beyond just the bass. You really see into the recording with these cables.
dcg:
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Tested the cable at Hirsch's today on Dusty's Hap-02 amp, and out of the gate the biggest discernible difference was very bloated bass. I'm not familiar with the amp, but the difference was definitely noticeable, and Dusty agreed with me. Having no good way to connect it at my apartment, I left the cable with Hirsch for further testing. Unfortunately, we were not able to A/B the virtual dynamics cord with the Absolute Power cord that Hirsch uses on much of his equipment, but maybe sometime soon. Hopefully Hirsch and Dusty will chime in with their impressions.
Hirsch:
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The problem is that the Absolute Power Cord is well burned-in, while the Power 3 isn't. I should probably wait a couple of months before commenting...
Nah.
The Power 3 is big. It weighs more than the ZOTL I wanted to use it on. Required some twists and turns to get it positioned...it doesn't like to bend. I then listened to some music using the APC I'm used to, then the Power 3, then APC again, then Power 3. Note that these cords are sufficiently different that I couldn't run a blind test
Initial impression is bass bloat. That seems to diminish quickly, so burn-in seems to have started. However, the next thing that I noticed was cleaner imaging. Hmmm...could be a novelty effect, but a return to the APC definitely muddied the image. Further, the volume level that sounded good was higher on the APC than the Power 3. That's either a lower noise floor, better dynamics or both with the Power 3. I'm impressed. If this cord burns in well, and maintains or betters its current (sic) performance, it's a winner.
Hirsch:
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We really didn't get a chance to do any formal A/B testing while we were all here. Too much to listen to, too little time. dcg left the Power 3 with me, and I set it up with the ZOTL later, so the comparisons I posted were mine alone.
I had both cords plugged into a Monster HTS-2000 power conditioner. Berning MicroZOTL with tubes that have actually stayed the same for a few days (Amperex Bugle Boys (Holland) in front of Sylvania VT-231's). Source was Rotel 955 and modded ART DI/O. Elco DC-32 digital cable, Homegrown Audio Silver Lace analog cable, Calrad phone to RCA adapter for the DI/O. Listening done with HP-1 and CD3K. Music was very familiar, as it's the same as I had been using to listen to 12AT7's recently.
I'm hearing pretty much the same thing today that I did last night, and remain impressed with this cord. It adds authority to sound of the ZOTL, which greatly enhances the impact of this amp. My SHA-1 has a captive power cord, so I can't test the Power 3 with it (could be time for a modification here...
dcg:
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Mark,
I should make it clear that my test of the Power 3 was pretty much in the worst of conditions - unfamiliar everything. Source, amp, source material, cables, tubes, basically no break-in, all of it. Add to that the fact that I listened very briefly, and you'll know why I'm slightly disappointed, but not too concerned, at least not yet. In fact, I've got three more of these cords in the mail, so eventually I'll be able to hook up both the cdp and zotl. I'll be interested to hear which is affected more. Until then, I'll reserve judgement.
DarkAngel:
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Dave
I think Mark's description of "giant pipe cleaner" is good, since Sigs will hold any shape you bend with little spring back, bends need to be somewhat large but I think it will work for me. You can tell there is a lot of metal in these as they are very heavy for 1 meter pair........also no direction marking on cable and no instructions so I guess a call is in order to determine proper orientation when connecting in system.
markl:
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I had the same question about directionality. Rick says his cables are non-directional, but he recommended that you place them in the direction of the lettering on the cable just to be safe and always replace them in the same direction as when you burned them in if you remove them. BTW: Those green dots indicate they were cryo-ed, not necessarily directionality.
dcg:
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Just a quick update on my impressions of the power 3 - I dropped off a couple of cables at Hirsch's tonight and took a quick listen to the virtual dynamics on the ZOTL vs the Melos with stock cord (stock cord isn't removeable on the Melos.)
Differences were immediately apparent - to me, the Melos sounded grainier, the ZOTL much more airy. Contrary to my intial impressions, bass was far from bloated or sloppy. Whether this is due to burn in or due to the fact that the power 3 just sounds better with the ZOTL than the Hap-02 I don't know, though I tend to believe it's burn in, as Hirsch noted bloated bass with the ZOTL at first.
Hirsch:
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The captive power cord on the SHA-1 is a problem, it now appears. The Melos had almost caught up with the ZOTL sonically, IMO, but the Power 3 has the ZOTL pulling away again. Bass response was initially bloated, but has tightened up again. As the cord burns in, the sense that the image is clearer remains. There is still a sense of greater bass extension. A really impressive improvement!
The next two Power 3's have gone to my Sony 9000ES and Outlaw 950, just tonight. Initial impression of very heavy handed bass, but still there's a greater sense of detail. The Sony has always had a lean midrange, IMO, and the Outlaw to date has had a very dry sound playing music, so much so that I've been playing around with keeping a separate preamp for music. I think I can put that to rest now, if the Power 3 burns in as well as it sounds now. Midrange is now fleshed out. Voices have body to them. However, the high end and bass extension remain better than the previous cord (Absolute Power Cord...much better than normal stock cable). So far, I'm putting these cables as early in the chain as I can. Will they help out with power amps? Hmmmm...
markl:
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Couldn't resist. Had to grab some Signature Cryo power cords demo models while they still have some. I originally called asking for Auditions, but demand is too high and they had no demo models at the present moment.
Now this cable should answer the question once and for all, "how much can a power cord improve the sound". I recognize that these cords are probably meant for gear better than mine, but as I upgrade, I can take the Signature cords with me!
markl:
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So far, these VD cables have been the best thing I've done in terms of tweaks for my system. I don't know what better endorsement of their products I can give besides to tell you that I am re-wiring my system top to bottom with VD cables.
They're BIG, but damn are they good. They have re-defined for me what an interconnect can do, let alone what a power cable can do. These cables have re-defined what I will consider "good sound" from here on out. I think Rick's literally captured "lightning in a bottle".
DarkAngel:
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Well after 3-4 days of break-in on system 2 using XLO/Reference
break-in track VD Sigs are now installed in main system. This process reminds me of a DR Suess book with the strange plumbing pictures. The Sig was pre-bent to approximate shape by holding cable where it was to be installed. After bends are applied
IC holds the shape and can be installed without stressing or damaging your RCA jacks.
The VD Sigs replace a 1m run of HG Silver Laces between preamp-amps, will report my findings after couple days of listening. Sometime this week my VD Ref AC cords should arrive, so more fun to be had.
Although I got great deal on this demo IC, it is the most money I have ever spent on a single pair of ICs, so I hope I like it. I think if I ever did decide to sell, it would be gone in 1 hr at Audiogon
so pretty much risk free proposition.
DarkAngel:
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Well slight delay for VD Ref AC cords, seems last weekend was holiday in Canada, so today was 1st work day of week. Delivery now looks like Thursday-Friday of this week.
My initial impressions of VD Signature IC are very good indeed. They remind me tonally of Cardas Golden Cross or perhaps AZ Matrix, in that "in my system" thay are very slightly warm, very liquid sound that is completely free of any hardness, very relaxed smooth sounding. Compared to HG Silver Laces or even the copper/silver hybrid HT ProSilway II they do not quite have the upper treble extension and therefore sound more relaxed, similar to almost any other copper cable I have heard vs silver cables. They lack the very high end treble sparkle a good silver design provides.
That is the only weakness I can find, the remaining 85-90% of the range however surpasses the HG Silver Laces and ProSilway II. VD Sigs present a huge 3D soundstage, slightly bigger than my other ICs, and not only is it bigger it also seems more real or holographic. This is the strongest feature of the VD Sigs for me.
Coupled with the liquid smoothness is extremely impressive retrevial of fine detail, amazing considering how completely natural and musical the ICs are, don't sound cold or analytical at all which can be the weakness of many silver designs.
I think these ICs would literally be miracle workers in systems that lean slightly to the bright/cold side, and in a tonally nuetral system they are very impressive. If you have a slightly warm system these might be a bit too warm/dark sounding. When I install the VD AC cords my initial impressions may change a bit.
Perhaps Mark can add his impressions of the VD Reference ICs.
BTW, I continue to be amazed/impressed at how good the HG Silver Laces sound for $190 retail, better cables are available but I know of no other IC that offers the price/performance ratio of Silver Laces.
markl:
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DarkAngel, as I recall you are not listening "directly" to these cables, but there's another set in the signal path, and possibly another component as well, is that correct? That makes judging them a bit more difficult I would guess, or at least it adds some variables to the equation
Mine are installed directly from my SCD-333ES with Modwright mods to my Melos Maestro. However, I have a Sonic Horizons Daybreak extension cable in my signal path that will soon (if it ever shows up) be replaced by a Sonic Horizons Hurricane headphone extension. The Daybreak is a great extension for $60, but the Hurricane is more than double the price and presumably significantly better. Getting that cable should let me "hear" the VD Reference Cryo ICs better.
Right now I think the Daybreak is the weak link in the chain, yet despite this I still got a whopping improvement over my two previous ICs, the AudioMagic Spellcaster ($400 retail) and Stealth Cable FLR (retail $240), both of them were silver and were excellent cables compared to the other better cables I had before (MIT T2 and Monster Z-Series).
I've not experienced a loss in the highs at all with the VD Reference ICs compared to those two silver cables. In fact, Rick warned me that some people might find his ICs "bright" as they were not used to full and accurate extension up top that his cables make possible. I've heard the extension in the bass region combined with the more emphatic midrange I noted earlier. I don't doubt that the highs are equally more "present" as well, yet they aren't harsh or etched. I wouldn't describe them as dark up top anyway.
I also believe that upgrading to the Sig Cryo power cords will further enhance the positive effects of the Reference ICs, but how much remains to be seen.
quote:That is the only weakness I can find, the remaining 85-90% of the range however surpasses the HG Silver Laces and ProSilway II. VD Sigs present a huge 3D soundstage, slightly bigger than my other ICs, and not only is it bigger it also seems more real or holographic. This is the strongest feature of the VD Sigs for me.
Yes! The VD cables are soundstaging champs and that's a MAJOR hot-button for me. I listen with my eyes closed and visualize the performance in my mind's eye. The VD really enhance this experience.
quote:Coupled with the liquid smoothness is extremely impressive retrevial of fine detail, amazing considering how completely natural and musical the ICs are, don't sound cold or analytical at all which can be the weakness of many silver designs.
To me, it's not that the VD cables "remove" the edge, they are giving you the truth. To me, the etch, hash, and sharpness of some cables is a coloration, not the VD's "naturalness". These cables are tonally "right" to my ears. They aren't always reminding you that you're listening to a recording-- it sounds more like a real event which helps you again with imaging.
I would never have thought that a cable could make as much difference as the VD's have in my system. They've completely changed my mind about the relative importance of cables.
I was recently chatting with Hart from Audio Advancements and he had a set of $700 interconnects that he was trying to sell me. I told him I didn't really put much credence in cables as I had yet to hear a level of difference that really made me go "WOW"! He said to me: "Mark, you must treat interconnects as you would the actual *components* in your system. "Yeah, right" I thought, "thanks but no thanks, you can keep your $700 ICs!"
Now, I BELIEVE.
DarkAngel:
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Mark
Thanks for your impressions, I think you are a bit more impressed with VDs than I am. I am doing all listening though main speakers and yes there are other ICs and speaker cables in my chain, that is why I tend to have a lot of cable sets around, always trying new things.
Haven't tried any AudioMagic or Stealth cables in my system. We both totally agree on great 3D capabilities of VDs, however after I wrote my previous post I again switched VDs back to HG Silver Laces and noticed beter treble extension with the Silver Laces
as noted prevously.
markl:
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My Sig Cryos came. They are a foot shorter than the Power 3s, though interestingly, they feel much lighter than the Power 3's than you'd expect even for being a foot shorter. These bent and held their shape, making installation much easier but still not fun. My LEAST favorite thing in the whole wide world of audio is having to fuss with the unreachable tangle of cords behind my gear.
Anyway, these don't look exactly like DarkAngels's Reference (they're a step up in the line), they're all black and the connectors look slightly different.
Anyway, after some minimal burn-in I'll post impressions.
markl:
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OK, Can't resist, I have three observations about the Sig Cryos straight off the bat:
1. If you thought the Power 3 had "too much" bass-- stay away from the Sig Cryo! I have never heard bass like this through my R10s before. Fan-friggin'-tastic!
2. Someone else observed earlier (Hirsh?) that the Power 3 seemed to cause an apparent increase in volume over the stock cord at same volume setting. I'm not sure I heard that with the Power 3's in my system, but with the Sig Cryo, it's unmistakeable. That's very very interesting to me.
3. Hmmm... I have to admit that the Power 3 might be "darker" sounding than the Sig Cryo. There's a lot on top and bottom with the new cables. Yet mids are emphasized too as singing voices seem "louder" and more "present" than before, and come through even more clearly with more force than before. Thin-sounding, these cables are NOT!
More to come...
markl:
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OK, so my VD Sig Cryo power cables now have roughly 50 hrs burn-in and I've logged considerable listening time on them. Here are my conclusions:
I had been *hoping* that the level of improvement wrought by the Sig Cryos over the Power 3's would equal the jump from stock cable to Power 3's which was a dramatic night-and-day sort of difference. That may not have been a fair expectation, and I acknowledge there are numerous factors that will dictate the performance of a given cable in a given system.
I fully recognize that these $1K+ list price cables are more than total overkill for my modified Sony SCD-333ES source and Melos Maestro amp. The SCD-333ES with Modwright mods represents an investment of $1200 plus about $600 for the mods (although I think my modified player competes with much more expensive CDPs) while the Melos Maestro retailed for around $2500 all tweaked out plus some very expensive Siemens NOS tubes. I would imagine that the Sig Cryos are meant for components in the $5K range and above.
Overall, I would say that the boost in performance provided by the Sig Cryo cables over the Power 3 *in my unworthy system* was about 50% of the major leap in performance I got from going from the stock cables to the Power 3's. That said, given the sweet deal I got on the demo Sig Cryos I'm still delighted by their performance vs. cost. This was a great tweak over the mighty Power 3's and well worth my money. Plus, as I upgrade, I can take these killer power cords with me!
Anyway, there are several potential conclusions I *could* draw from my experience:
1. The VD power cords price/performance curve peaks at about the Audition/Power 1 level. This would be jumping to conclusions, IMO, but can't be ruled out.
2. Given the general level of components we use on this site, the Audtion/Power 1 cords are about the apex of what Head-Fi'ers should invest in. Let's face it, most of us do not have have $5K and above components. A $1K power cord does not make much sense for us.
3. My VD power cords are plugged into my Monster HTS1100 power conditioner. Good as this little $200 power conditioner is, could it be limiting the performance of the Sig Cryos in my system? Again, Rick at VD reco'ed I insert his cables straight into the wall. However, I want surge protection, so I decided to put them in the Monster despite his advice.
Let me just re-state for the record, I'm floored by the performance of the Sig Cryos in my system. I've reco-ed the VD cables to everyone I know who is seriously into audio. I highly recomend these cables to you. However, please see my original caveats about power cords that I posted earlier in this thread to determine if a power cord upgrade is really rational at all for your system, or whether that cash is better socked away to pay for a better source or amp.
DarkAngel:
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Mark
Haven't forgot about me have you, its taking me longer to evaluate the VD Refs because my system requires 5 AC cords and need to switch around to find best combo. The size/stiffness is a royal pain in the a** as I feared, so the Vds are going to have to really sound great to overcome the extra hassle.
I will say like the VD Sig IC I am getting really great expansion of 3D sound stage which is very important for main system. As you noted and is true in general as your system improves it costs a great deal of money for ever smaller increases in sound quality,
so some common sense is needed to balance your spending
priorities to acheive best sound.
More to come over next several days, any more observations?
DarkAngel:
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I have to say I'm very impressed with the VD reference AC cords,
they are easily the best cords I have ever had in my system. I almost can't believe the improvement in 3D soundstage and retreaval of fine detail they provide, while at the same time sounding very natural. I was an AC cord advocate before but I think even I underestimated how dramtically they can improve the sound, while at the same time confounding the skeptics that say it can't be so.
I now believe AC cord upgrades produce more improvement than
IC or speaker cable upgrades. I wasn't anywhere near as impressed with the VD Signature ICs, the improvement was much smaller than the obvious changes brought on by the Reference AC cords, especially when I placed one on my CDP......WOW!
I can't remember any other $300 range AC cord I've tried that is even in the same league as the VD reference. Needless to say these are staying in my system, I haven't decided yet if I keep the VD Sigs IC, more listening is needed.
I can live with the messy cable situation I guess, these AC cords have very low WAF (wife acceptance factor) but I'm not married so I will live dangerously.
markl:
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"I now believe AC cord upgrades produce more improvement than
IC or speaker cable upgrades."
Damn! Yes!!!!!! I was very very reluctant to be the one to say this because I thought no one would believe me! Prior to my experience with the VD power cables I wouldn't have believed it either.
Who'd a thunk that a power cord can alter the sound more than an IC? I concur 100% DarkAngel!
Let the chips fall where they may, don't knock it until you've tried it!
markl:
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The VD power cords were a real "come to Jesus" experience for me. I had always considered power cords to be the absolute height of audio-foolishness. What about the 50 miles of craptacular power cable from the power company leading up to my poorly wired outlet in my noisy apartment with all those other devices "grunging up" my power? How is it possible that the last 5 feet of cable can make a difference?
If I could go back in time even 3 months ago and tell myself that I now thought power cords were *more important* than ICs, and then reveal how much I ended up spending on the VD power cords, I would have immediately committed myself. I would now be writing to you from the comfort of the rubber room.
Again-- I say for $50 plus a 15-day return policy, the Power 3 is a slam dunk and just might change your mind, too. All you'd be out is the postage back and forth. Of course, once you hear the Power 3, you'll end up upgrading....
Having said that, I want to re-post my caveats and considerations from earlier in this thread for those of you tuning in late:
1. Someone else said it best when they advised that power cords should be one of the last tweaks in a system you already love. The idea is to add that extra layer of icing on the cake, not to "transform" from a Bose into a Nautilus.
2. It makes little sense to attach a fancy powercord to a low-cost, mass-produced component that has many cost/performance compromises. Although I'm no electrical engineer, it seem obvious to me that adding "clean power" to "dirty" "noisy" or "cheap" components will do little to erradicate the nasties in the system.
My components, a Melos Maestro and a heavily-modified Sony SCD-333ES each have very tricked-out, beefy, well-engineered and thoughtfully constructed power supplies. No, they're not cost no object designs, but they're plenty good, good enough to really allow a good power cable to shine. In fact, the Sony also has Bybee filters at the AC Mains to further reduce distortion in power supply. These components also have higher quality parts in the signal path, components that reject "nasties" and let a clean signal pass.
OK, bottom line, think about your component. Even if it has a removable IC, how good are the parts in there? Good enough to let a POWER CABLE make them sing? If you have your doubts, money should be spent upgrading that component before you swap its power cable!
3. Your Headphone Listening Style (http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showt...listening+style ), will also determine the degree to which you will notice the power cord's effects. Affects like these are best appreciated by people who close their eyes and focus solely on the music. That said, I still think that the astonishing level of change I've experienced in my system would be readily obvious to even a casual listen.
4. Power conditioners are good. Monster makes some effective and low-cost solutions. I've recently scaled back from an HTS5000 to the new HTS1100 in anticipation of getting these cables. Again, VD reco'd sticking them straight into the wall. Well, the 1100 has fewer stages of filtartation than the HTS5000 yet it still has the surge protection. So, long story short, these results were obtained with the cables plugged into the conditioner, despite a reco that they go straight to the wall for maximum effect.
acidtripwow:
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I received my Virtual Dynamics Power 3 power cord last week and tried it over the weekend. This power cord is huge and heavy. It reminds me of the Tara Labs I had at one time only bigger and heavier. It's as stiff as someone on Viagra! It was like bending a steel cable to get it to go into place. I used it between my Audio Valve RKV II amp and BPT Jr. balanced power conditioner. After that workout I sat down and listened to one of my favorite new DVDs Diana Krall "Live in Paris." The one thing I noticed with the cord in my system was that there was an even blacker background. The amp was dead quiet and all I heard was the clean presentation of the music. My amp now seems to run like a solid state amp but with more warmth and no harshness. The new cord does not take anything away from the music. Everything is clean and crisp as before only more so. From my initial listening sessions I would say that this power cord is definetly worth the investment and I recommend it to anyone looking to tweak their system.
bkelly:
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I am going to have to make this as short as possible but I will write more later. First off, after being encouraged by Mark to try the VD cables I called Rick and after a brief discussion I purchased a Power Two for my amp and an Audition for my Pre-amp. This is the the way Rick recommended they be used in my system (Marantz A/V9000 and an ATI power amplifier, both purchased from Mark, BTW). This is a conventional speaker system setup (not headphones) with B&W 605 floor-standing speakers with built in, powered subwoofers in each cabinet.
When I first installed them in my system I was shocked at how little they seemed to be doing to improve the sound. The soundstage was a little deeper but almost everything else was no big deal. Within hours though all this had changed and today with about seventy-five hours on them I am beginning to be very impressed.
Here is where I'd like to address Mark's statement that AC cables are more important than IC's. I think he is right, especially in the sense that IC's can be used to enhance a system sonic features or inhibit some characteristic you don't like. With the VD cables I don't hear many changes like this. In my system everything sounds pretty much the same only better. Much better and more musical. For this reason I think he is also correct in saying that power cables should be the last thing you do to your system.
The biggest difference is in the soundstage. Not necessarilly bigger as much as it is deeper. Sound emanates from all sides of the speaker now.
Another very noticaeble improvement and one I have not really heard before with any other equipment upgrade is the fact the weaker sounding material, FM signals and old big band recordings all of a sudden take a big leap forward in their overall sound making them much more valued recordings. Once again this improvement is in line with what I was saying earlier that they still sound the same only better.
bkelly:
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I'm probaly nearing the 100 hr. point now and everything seems pretty stable but I am paying some attention to comments Mark made to me Saturday about the possibility that his are still breaking in.
I want to address one of the most important points you bring up in your last thread and that is "detail". My experience seems exactly the same and I remember Mark commenting very early on about hearing things for the first time. It also points to what I was saying yesterday about my system being the same only better. I can definitely hear more detail but it is definitely not because the VD cables highlight some specific frequency that the new details exist in. Instead it sounds to me like somehow the VD cables are bringing out more information. I have been in or around the recording industry all my life so I may be a little more familiar with these things than some others (I know what to look for but do not necessarily hear any better than someone else) but I can hear how the different effects are used on Joni Mitchells's "Dog Eat Dog" CD. Now, instead of hearing the mix as a whole I can hear the layers of effects that were used to put it togehter.
I don't want to overdue this improvement because I can't hear this all the time but, even still, I've got to think that rather than emphasizing some particular frequency the VD cables are somehow providing more information. I haven't the first clue how they are doing it but that's my read on it.
I talked (email actually) with Brett at VD and he said that as far as breaking in goes that since the cables provide more current to your equipment you can expect those other components to break in again too. What do you think about that?
I read somewhere that someone claimed that their amplifier ran cooler after installing the VD cables. I haven't checked mine yet so I don't know but I will soon although that's kind of a difficult test for me because the last time I cecked it I can't remember if was in use or idling so I can only guess as to whether or not in runs cooler.
Crucible:
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Hmm...I spoke with Brett there this afternoon, who was of a differring opinion: He stated that there is a fairly large (sonic)difference between their Basic in any form, versus the 3 (and the cryo 3 is better than the regular 3 in that repsect as well)...just as there is a difference between at 3 and the other higher models. The primary differences include: the basic is 18 gauge, rather the the 3's solid copper 14 gauge...the level of filtering/shielding that takes place as it's done over the cable and covering itself (hence the size of these models, especially compared to the 'better' models as the shielding on those takes place over the conductors themselves, instead of the conductors and coverings as on the 3 and basic), etc. So, while the Basic is a great cable relatively speaking to stock and many custom cables out there, the 3 is better realtive to the Basic.
Whew
Btw, I'd like to thank him for taking the time to talk to me, a relative newby (on the level that I can appreciate the person who stated something to the effect that they originally thought that buying custom power cords was silly and the height of madness). Brett spoke at length wit me (despite being very busy as thier other service rep's being on their lunch break at the time), answering all my silly questions and educating me about not only their equipment, the difference between them all, and the technical theories behind them-I was impressed enough with the customer service alone to buy right then and there...and of course, the price is surely right too!
Und zo......I have two Power 3 (cryo's) coming, and my Mg Head is shivering in excitement.
bkelly:
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Well I've had the VD Power Two and the Audirition cables running 24 hrs a day for about ten days now and I think everything is broken in. In fact, in the past few days I cannot really hear any new improvements. So I will stick to what I said in my last thread and that is that the Soundstage improvements are the number one difference I have noticed followed closely by the rendering of a new level of detail. I listened to more Classical music this week than in the first and the soundstage presentation was more beleivable than I had previously thought my system was capable of. You could look right at the speakers and not tell that anything was emerging directly from them.
The bass would not be as affected in my system as in others since the speakers are bi-amped and those amplifiers are not using the VD cables. Otherwise my system sounds just as before only better. Much better!
As far as the VD cables being able to deliver more current to the amp thereby causing the amp to run cooler I'm going to say that it's only my best guess since I didn't really measure this scientifically and it's also hard to judge how hard an amp has been working but I feel confident that VD is correct in making this claim (actually it may have been another customer who pointed this out to me).
Anyhow, I am definitely going to try and work out a deal to get a Reference Power cable for the CD player.
DarkAngel:
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So we all agree the VD audition, reference, signature AC cords produce excellent enhancement to 3D soundstage creation (best I have ever heard)* as well as the ability to reveal fine details previously obscured by our other AC cords.
Another good quality is I feel the VD AC cords are very close to nuetral tonally in my system. Other AC cords I have used tend to
do some of the good things regarding 3D soundstage and detail
retreval but can do some tonal shifting sounding either warm/rich
or bright/lean overall. I really can't say the VDs are either, they just sound nuetral which is very good (unless you are trying to
change your system sound tonally)
* AC cables I have owned or tried in my system last 4yrs:
-HT Pro AC11
-Silver Audio Powerburst
-Shunyata Sidewinder
-Shunyata Mamba
-Synergistic AC master coupler
-AZ Tsunami
-Analysis Plus Power Oval
-Zu Mother
-Zu Birth
-Absolute Power Cord
DarkAngel:
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You can check my profile button for equipment and see pictures of them at my website button below. Currently using PS Audio High Current Ultimate Outlet for my amps and Monster HTS2000 for front end gear. To answer what I think is your next question, yes
AC cords do improve sound even when used with power conditioner. Careful audition should be used when choosing power conditioner/surge protector since many restrict dynamics and soften sound, unless you unplug gear though I would always use some type of surge protection. (even then I would still use one!) If I was going to upgrade here I would replace the Monster HTS2000 with used PS Audio P300 for front end gear, @$750 at Audiogon currently.
Although the AC cords I have owned have all retailed for @$300 or less there is no contest, the VD Reference AC cords are in another league altogether as far as degree of improvement.
Other cords listed do certain things well and definitely improve sound over stock AC cord (which is why I have tried so many)
As we have stated here several times you must keep AC cord costs in balance with system value since at a certain point money is more effectively spent on upgrading gear.
JohnActon:
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I just wanted to say that you are all bastards!
Everything was fine; I was probably just going to get another PS Audio Mini-lab cable for my CD player (or maybe a Synergistic AC Coupler), but then....
I read this thread. Dammit, thanks to you guys, it looks like I'll be calling Virtual Dynamics to see what's what. Do you think they are still running any sales? I'm looking at the Audition, but it's pretty expensive. I'd love to try the Reference, but that's TOO expensive. Maybe they have some outlandish sale going.
Hmmmm.... If I like the sound of the VD going to my player, I'll probably have to upgrade the Mini-lab cables going to my amp and Ultimate Outlet.
You guys are killing me!
DarkAngel:
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Mark
You may be interested to know that my VD Signature Cryo IC has now become my main system IC. After long and careful comparisons with HT ProSilway II, HG Silver Lace etc the VD Sig
finally showed its mettle and pulled ahead.
The main strong point, like the VD Reference AC cords, is the ability to expand the perceived 3D soundstage better than any other IC I have tried in my system. The VD "dynamic filtering" must really be removing mechanical vibrations because I got a similar effect the first time I tried bearing isolation in my system. The bass is also deeper without being muddy or boomy, very good detailing of bass region.
My initial concern with treble extension has been "somewhat" relieved, although not quite as extended as ProSilway II it is close enough when taken as a whole it becomes the superior IC. I'm afraid to try VD speaker cables, where does it end?
May be time to trim my cable collection, to make room for some more VDs
JohnActon:
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BTW, my Reference Power cables arrived today. You guys are right, and I totally agree with Mark and DarkAngel that these things are a fricking nightmare to install. Holy ****, I've never seen anything like these when it comes to being stiff and unwieldy. I felt like Crocodile Hunter behind my rack trying to man-handle these things into place. My CD player weighs 35 pounds so there was no real problem there, but the rest of my equipment is all fairly lightweight - the VD cables kept wanting to either push them all over the place or pop out of the power receptacle. I finally got it taken care of, but the one cord still doesn't seem like it's completely in all the way. What an ordeal.
They are extremely cool looking, however, and seem to imply visually that they mean business.
JohnActon:
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DarkAngel, hmmmm.... that's interesting to hear you say that your UO was softening the top-end, even if slightly. I'm going to have to play around with mine. At any rate, like Mark, I feel more secure with some kind of power protection, and as I live in an apartment, I enjoy the increased transparency of power conditioning. If I find that the UO DOES soften the treble, and to an unacceptable degree, than maybe I'll look at a used Power Plant.
I've let the VD Reference AC cables cook for the last few days, and even though I realize that they may not be fully burned-in, I couldn't wait any longer to listen (critically). Here are my brief impressions: these cables sound excellent (especially in light of their current sale price). The soundstage is more expansive and more importantly, the musical images seem to be both more coherent, and more focused, within the soundstage. Sounds that used to seem like they were originating from the "speakers" now seem to be disassociated more from them. The central images float behind the plane of the speakers and are rendered with excellent palpability and solidity. Very convincing.
The bass was a little bloated at first, but this has worn off. There is great extension, but no extra muddiness. The midrange is infused with a kind of glow that gives voices and instruments greater realism, and due to the lowered noise floor (at least that's what it sounds like to me), the References seem to render images a little more cleanly. The treble, for me, may be the best part. Cymbals sound more realistic - a little bit of haze I hadn't realized was there previously is gone. Cymbals seem to shimmer more - there's no additional brightness, but I can better hear the stick hitting the metal at the beginning and I can better hear the decay of the cymbal at the end. Sibilance is reproduced more cleanly. There seems to be more extension and air, while paradoxically, glare is reduced. More detail, less harshness.
Needless to say, I'm extremely pleased. In fact, I'm so pleased, I just called Brett and ordered an additional Reference (at the sale price, I couldn't pass it up). The only problem I'm facing is that of which component on which to install it, the Stax 006t amp or the Ultimate Outlet.
hokiefritz:
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Just chiming in.
I have the Virtual Dynamics Power 3 hooked up to my Sugden Headmaster and have noticed a small improvement in detail and imaging. I think. I have it plugged into a $20 ratshack surge protector though.
I would plug it straight into the wall but available space is tight and I'd have to rearrange my room because of the cord. The size of these cords is a huge PITA. Perhaps it's time for a fancy power conditioner...
Fifty bucks for a big fat pain in the ass cord that impacts the sound of your system in a positive way is a pretty good deal. It might be hard for some to believe it could make a difference, but it's a relatively cheap test and if you don't like 'em you could use them as a weapon against an intruder.
DarkAngel:
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Oh no, I did it again!
Well boys just ordered 2 VD Power Two Cryo AC cords with the new Flexi-twist connectors........these will go on my two Musical Fidelity XAS100 amps.
Currently using Zu Mothers here which are a very fast detailed AC cord, be interesting to compare the two.
Hirsch
It is long past time that you ordered some more VD cables besides those Power Threes........how much longer can you resist
markl:
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1. Someone else said it best when they advised that power cords should be one of the last tweaks in a system you already love. The idea is to add that extra layer of icing on the cake, not to "transform" from a Bose into a Nautilus.
2. It makes little sense to attach a fancy powercord to a low-cost, mass-produced component that has many cost/performance compromises. Although I'm no electrical engineer, it seem obvious to me that adding "clean power" to "dirty" "noisy" or "cheap" components will do little to erradicate the nasties in the system.
My components, a Melos Maestro and a heavily-modified Sony SCD-333ES each have very tricked-out, beefy, well-engineered and thoughtfully constructed power supplies. No, they're not cost no object designs, but they're plenty good, good enough to really allow a good power cable to shine. In fact, the Sony also has Bybee filters at the AC Mains to further reduce distortion in power supply. These components also have higher quality parts in the signal path, components that reject "nasties" and let a clean signal pass.
OK, bottom line, think about your component. Even if it has a removable IC, how good are the parts in there? Good enough to let a POWER CABLE make them sing? If you have your doubts, money should be spent upgrading that component before you swap its power cable!
3. Your Headphone Listening Style (http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showt...listening+style ), will also determine the degree to which you will notice the power cord's effects. Affects like these are best appreciated by people who close their eyes and focus solely on the music. That said, I still think that the astonishing level of change I've experienced in my system would be readily obvious to even a casual listen.
4. Power conditioners are good. Monster makes some effective and low-cost solutions. I've recently scaled back from an HTS5000 to the new HTS1100 in anticipation of getting these cables. Again, VD reco'd sticking them straight into the wall. Well, the 1100 has fewer stages of filtartation than the HTS5000 yet it still has the surge protection. So, long story short, these results were obtained with the cables plugged into the conditioner, despite a reco that they go straight to the wall for maximum effect.
In my history of "tweaks", I would rank the degree of change wrought by the Power 3 in my system thusly:
1. Power 3
2. Getting my Modwright mods for my SCD-333ES (that's a BIG difference)
3. Upgrading to fancy interconnects
4. Swapping tubes
5. Adding a power conditioner
6. Vibrapods (very little, if any noticeable effect)
However, it should be noted that without that existing foundation of tweaks, the Power 3 would not have had as dramatic and noticeable impact, so it's sort of an arbitrary ranking in a way.
Since that post I upgraded my power 3's to Signature Cryos which are fabulous, thank you very much.
As for how much one should spend on Power cables vs. ICs, given the fundamentally larger effects of adding the VD power cords, I would advise spendfing at least as much on the power cord as you would on ICs.
But again, you wouldn't add a $1000 cable from your portable mp3 player to your Altoids amp, nor should you over-spend on power cables.
Damn, that was a LOT of work, and I'm only up to page 12. I need a break. If folks think this is worth-while I'll take it up again tomorrow and tackle the next 12 pages... Then the next twelve...
Mark