[Calanctus]

Quote:

Originally posted by TimSchirmer about this layering.... it really wouldn't suprise me if sony tweaked the recordings to give a slight advantage to SACD. You guys can fuss about this all you want, I'll be kicking back, and listening to my vinyl

Sony is far from the only one to release hybrid SACDs. Do you also suspect (for example) Telarc, Hyperion, and the San Francisco Symphony orchestra of playing along in the grand conspiracy??

 

[geom_tol]

Markl wrote:
"There is no format war. Why? because manufacturers are releasing universal players that will play both SACDs and DVD-A discs. Going forward, all or almost all SACD/DVD-A players will be universal and able to play both formats. "

Is this really true? Are the formats so similar that they can use the same laser/clock/dac/filter etc?

I'm sure IC's are/will be made that can do it. But they will be compromised if they have to do different things depending on which format is being played.

Anyone know?

 

[kelly]

Since the dual layer Telarcs are some of the best recordings I have ever heard even on the redbook layer, I can't give much credibility to the conspiracy theory.

 

[Pepzhez]

There was an initial controversy in that Sony at first required that Sony and Sony only would do the mastering for the redbook layer of any hybrid SACD. This was of course a simple downsampling of the DSD master. Engineers howled and Sony changed their minds: that requirement is no more. Any label is now free to make their own redbook-layer master, but they of course have to pay for the costs of doing so. Sony still retains market advantage here: they will downsample DSD-to-16-bit-PCM for free, so it's not difficult to see the choice most labels will make - pay a mastering engineer for a dedicated 44.1 kHz master in addition to a DSD master or just pay for one and have the other tossed in for nothing.

The ABKCO Stones reissues are a good case in point. The redbook layer on all of these is a Sony downsampled-DSD freebie. To my ears, the redbook layer on these sounds quite good, but I'm willing to bet that ABKCO could've ended up with improved redbook sonic quality should they have spent the money on achieving it.

As always, $$$ is the bottom line and we'll see few dual layer SACD releases which showcase the expense and care of two seperate dedicated mastering jobs.

 

[kelly]

I believed I'd read somewhere on AA that a couple of people had AB'd the Telarc single layer redbook CDs to the redbook layer of the hybrid SACD and found them identical.

I wouldn't put any corner-cutting past Sony but it seems you at least have Telarc as a reference.

 

[SumB]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl Is Sony/Phillips an actual business with business interests trying to survive in a free-market arena? Yup, they sure are! Frankly, who *cares* what their motivations are for introducing sound reproduction formats that are superior?

Superior to what? Not vinyl, and while it may have the edge over redbook from a sonic standpoint, it has its inferiorities as well. Who knows, with redbook technology developing at such a rapid rate will SACD be able to keep pace?

Quote:

We WIN! Music-lovers WIN! We have lost NOTHING because of the new formats!

Copy protection, watermarking, 5-$10 premium per title, high frequency distortion, dismal hardware and software selection.

That's choice, monetary reasons, user rights, and flawed design.

Exhorbant licensing fees are really keeping the audiophile manufacturers at bay. You just can't turn a profit unless you move 200,000 units or have a $30,000 asking price. Sony essentially corners both ends of the market this way.

Quote:

I suppose you were the type that objected to the introduction of speakers-- "hey my tin ear horn Victrola is good enough!" Objected to the introduction of stereo-- "another channel? what for????" Time marches on and new technologies are developed that help music-nuts like us get even MORE out music.

We receive less from these new technologies (digital), save for convenience. From where I sit i won't be buying into another format until vinyl has met its match, and the selection of hardware and software is diverse. Anything less is a step backwards IMO.

Remember, these are the folks who nearly succeded in their hell bent campaign to stamp out vinyl records in their entirety, with the promise of "perfect sound forever" - 50 year shelf life not withstanding... Now it's expected of us to draw a blank, put aside this atrocity, and buy into the hype again "because there's so much more to hear."

Laughable.

BTW, I thought you'd get a kick out of this

Portable record player for LP's and 45's

 

[Phreon]

...The day when we all have high speed bandwidth to our houses and an audio compression scheme that surpasses CD quality emerges. We're closer than you think.

Sony/Time Warner/Clear Channel's iron fisted control over the music industry has left us in sonic wasteland and they just don't get it. There's a huge backlash brewing and no new format will save their souls. Even the average Joe Sixpack is getting tired of the record companies whining about how they're loosing money to MP3 downloads, even though they've posted record profits every year for the past decade. If you do the math, the so called "loss" these companies are refering to almost perfectly correlates to the demise of cassette singles and the poor sales of (overpriced) CD singles.

Lets all show the record companies what we think about their effort to shove crippled formats like SACD down our throats (remember what happened to DAT?) by purchasing Darla 24™ 24-bit/96kHz audio cards

(Frequency Response: 20Hz - 22kHz, ±0.5dB; 10Hz - 44kHz, ±1.5dB
Input Stage Dynamic Range: 113dB
Output Stage Dynamic Range: 116dB
Input + Output Stage Dynamic Range: >108dB
THD+n: <0.003%, 20Hz - 22kHz, A-weighted )

for our computers, recording our favorite vinyl, saving it in a high bitrate format like MP3 VBR 320 or Ogg Vorbis and sharing freely with our friends.

If you study the behavior of the recording industry, you'll realize they do NOTHING for the good of the consumer. Every move they make, no matter how benign it may seem, is solely motivated by their desire to screw everyone in the chain, from the artist to the consumer, out of as much cash as they possibly can. CD prices are going to drop when? Think of flying pigs.

Why do you think Jimmy Buffet (I admint, somewhat of a goon) told the recording companies to screw off and started his own small venture? He doesn't sell multi platinum albums anymore, so he's treated like crap by the big boys. There's still a niche for him and countless other artists who have a small following.

Why did Prince (a freak yes, but talented none the less) show up to interviews with "Slave" written across his forehead?

If you're not a sure fire guaranteed mega platinum star by your first album, the record company owns your damn soul for life and you're screwed.


We'll never see vinyl return to mainstream popularity, but SACD is just another stage in the RIAA's plan to foward their equivalent of a musical apocalypse. Now is the time when people can tell them to screw off or become musical sheeple.

Phreon

 

[markl]

Wow, so many great posts! Thanks everyone for contributing to this thread. I'm going to upset some people, but I'm going to be selective again in my replies. It would be utterly impossible to fully reply to everything here now, I'm way way behind...

Perpzhez said:
Quote:

First of all, markl, I don't believe we disagree on everything (we are both Scott Walker fans, I see)

And it's not often you run into one of those! Do you have the latest HDCD re-masters of his early work? They're just fantastic.

Quote:

Guess that takes care of that, no need to argue this point then. How did you compare? What did you compare? What was your method? This standalone statement is utterly devoid of substance.

Sorry, I recently (couple months ago) compared the XA777ES against some Krell CDP that was in my local high-end shop. It was hooked up to some very fancy tube gear and very very expensive speakers that I can't remember the brand. Anyway, I brought my Laura Nyro "Angel in the Dark" SACD and the Redbook version, along with Mingus "Ah-Um" on Redbook and SACD and Miles "KOB" in both formats.

Compared to the very expensive Krell CDP, the Redbook versions of the discs I brought sound at least as good and possibly better on the XA777ES. This was confirmed by the dealer as we listened together. The SACD versions were clearly superior to the Redbook on both players.

To the best of my research, the XA777ES is supposed to sound significantly better in both formats than the old 777ES that you have.

kelly said:

Quote:

The only thing worse than propoganda is propoganda that so obviously condescends. I'm certain that I'm not the only one wondering whether my patience with Head-Fi will last long enough to see credit-taking for hand delivering the audience to SACD if the first signs of moderate success ever arrive.

Wait-- so if I take credit single-handedly for the success of SACD, you'll go away?

In that case, if SACD succeeds, it's all due to me!

Quote:

Only fools buy hardware with the express purpose of waiting to see whether or not software they want will arrive. I

This from someone who bought a $3K SACDP and then spent almost that much having it upgraded? What does that make you? King of fools rushing in??? You're always complaining about how few titles there are? What gives???

Quote:

Only the audiophile market need be concerned with this at all, frankly. For the average consumer, there is nothing about SACD or DVD-A to drive them. I know some of you say the cheaper DVD players from Sony are great and they may well be great for their price/performance but I wonder this: Who buys those? What kind of associated equipment does that person have? Are these really the people who are going to want a new format just because it sounds better? I'd say not. The average guy may end up with some SACDs by accident jsut as he undoubtedly owns a handful of HDCDs whether he likes it or not. Sure, sneak them onto some CDs people were going to buy anyway and start including the feature standard on DVD players and one way or another people are buying the new formats some of the time. Minor victories.

I think you're being way too cynical about this. I think people can tell the difference, and people are willing to pay for that difference. Again, they're already paying for Redbook CD re-masters that offer only incremental improvements in sound quality, where a release in the new formats is a whole new ballgame.

Also, do not discount how widespread home theater rigs have become. There are *a lot* of people out there that can take advantage of the multi-channel versions of the new formats. These people have a large disposable income and are likely to be willing to embrace music that supports the expensive surround systems they already own.

Quote:

The FCC is having to force HDTV down his throat and HDTV is something even your half blind grandmother can look at and say wow. Why don't people care?

HDTV is a whole nother thread. To paraphrase your argument-- where is the "software" for HDTV? Where's the programming? You can't get HDTV through your cable. You have to go back up on the roof and futz with your antique antenna-- if your home even has one.

The new audio formats are not equivalent to HDTV, IMO, and I don't buy this analogy.

Perpzhez said:
Quote:

Back to reality. Again, if the redbook layer of a hybrid SACD sounds superior through one of his (Van Alstine's) DACs than the SACD layer sounds through one of the most highly regarded SACD players out there, then, well, we must really stop and think.

Can you find Redbook DACs and CDPs that sound better on CDs than even the best SACDP/DVD-A player? Well given that you have about 100X the number of Redbook players to choose from currently, I should certainly hope so. I have stated numerous times so far that this is so. But when you have a 1:1 comparison in terms of choices (and more and more hi-end manufacturers are releasing SACDPs/DVD-A players) this temporary advantage will not last.

Quote:

Onwards, then. Note to loyal consumers on this thread: Sony is not infallible and Kelly is absolutely right stating that it is not OUR duty to show early-adoptee "faith" in their technology. Too many posts in this thread imply (or state overtly) that it is incumbent upon us to do so,

I've said this numerous times in numerous threads and I'll say it again here (and I know this is controversial

), if you sit on the sidelines and wait for the "other guy" to support the new formats, you can probably kiss them goodbye. If you ever had a desire for something better than Redbook CD, in a way, it *is* your responsibility to support the new formats. IMO, no one on this site is an "average" consumer. As lovers of audio and fidelity, we are in the early adopter group for new technologies like SACD/DVD-A. If we drop the ball, we've no one but ourselves to blame if they go away. This is Field of Dreams in reverse: "if we come, they will build it". I know this whole line of thinking irritates some people, but you can't argue that this is not in fact my true and honest opinion.

I need a break and I'm nowhere near done responding! Talk soon...

Mark

 

[RickG]

Quote:

Originally posted by SumB BTW, I thought you'd get a kick out of this Portable record player for LP's and 45's

Hey, I have one those little jewels. They're great for taking to record conventions, flea markets, and such to sample the goods.

 

[markl]

I got a good chuckle out of that picture. Proved me wrong, much to my amazement. Surely it must skip like crazy as you're walking around??

Do you need 10 D-batteries to keep it going? Is there a headphone jack or does it play back in mono?

Mark

 

[RickG]

It's strange. I've been to the record convention in Austin which is held twice a year (largest in the country). You see tons of people carrying these things around in backpacks and satchels. That's how I found out about them.

 

[bkelly]

Mark,

What a lengthy and worthwhile thread this is. As you know I do not own a SACD or DVD-A p;layer at this time. If I hadn't just bought a brand new CD player within days of being exposed to SACD I would have purchased one but with some of the same reservations people have here regarding the availabilty of SACD's and the "universatiluity" of the machies with other formats. I have also since heard, contrary to one of your earliest posts, that the Sony does a poor job on Redbook CD's. I don't know, I never tried it myself.

I will say in strong support of the SACD format that there is no way to get that much of an audio improvement for that kind of money no matter what you spend it on. These players are just barely more expensicve than premium quality Redbook players. You could never get that much improvement by spending the same amount of money upgrading amplifiers, cables, speakers or whatever you can think of. I think I am right in saying that you could triple the cost of a SACD player on whatever you wanted and still not get an equal benifit.

SACD is way ahead of anything out there. I was with one one Nashville's top session bass players when we audioned the Sony and both of us were shocked at how good it was. Both of us looked at each other and said the same thing, "Man, that sounds just like the analog master" and this was in Circuit City no less. My first thought was that it sopunded so realistic that the record buying public who is used to the sound of commercial recodings might not like it. I still wonder about that.

Well, that's my two cents.






Best
Brian

 

[markl]

Hi Brian,
Just so other people are aware, bkelly is one of Nashville's session players, so his comments come from a musician as well an an "audiophile".

Mark

 

[kelly]

Mark
As I've explained before both privately and publicly, my interest was in obtaining a high end redbook source. I did not have the means to acquire the Wadia 270/27ix that I had wanted to purchase. My options then came down to one of the Cary models, a used Wadia 861 or a Meridian 588. With much reading, research and quite a leap of faith, I became interested in Dan Wrights mods and purchased his fully modified redbook-only Perpetual Technologies P3A DAC which I liked quite a bit. I did AB comparisons with the XA777ES and read more reviews of Dans other mods and eventually decided that I would return the DAC, buy a player and have Dan mod it. Dan Wright's "signature work" that he is most proud of is currently the XA777ES. He considers it the equal of the Linn Sondek CD12 in redbook performance and claims others agree with him. Some people have compared it to the dCS Elgar DAC which while I have not hard myself, I still find this encouraging. All of this relates to redbook performance. This is my measuring stick. SACD was NOT a primary feature I sought out.

I am, however, interested in SACD. On the XA777ES, I did find the SACD versions of all of the hybrid discs I've bough preferable to the redbook layer. Dan claims the SACD performance of his modified player surpasses the redbook playback. I am interested in current, existing SACD titles as I stated clearly in my post. There are some out currently that I do not yet own and would like to. The ones I've bought so far have already brought me a lot of pleasure. Of course, being without my only ability to play SACDs for some time, I tend to have a greater fondness for the hybrid discs.

Satellite and DSS are two mediums that are currently delivering HDTV in addition to standard broadcast television. I don't really care that you're not an evangelist for HDTV. I'd bet fans of the format are happier that you aren't.

As for my finding your views (and the way you express them) "irritating", as you put it, I don't really think this is news to anyone.

 

[bkelly]

Mark,

Thanks for the kind words but in truth I am not currently working as a full time session player although, for some reason, I have been doing more recording lately than I have done in years. Truth be told the music industry is in such a rut that I don't know if anyone is working at it full time right now. My best friends are taking any kind of crazy thing that comes along just to keep their incomes up. Me, I'd rather dedicate my time to playing mainstream jazz guitar for almost nothing rather than try to make a living in the studios.

I have been involved in remastering several CD releases lately and I have enjoyed that and I would like to do more of that but who knows.

I should tell you a story of one of the earliest recordings I ever made. I was actually 17 years old at the time. I primarilly got the job because I had the hippest/latest equipment available and as a result my sound was new and fresh, at least that's the way the producers saw it. After cutting the tracks I went into the control room to listen to it played back and when I heard my guitar playing (rythym in this case, nothing fancy) coming back through the monitors in the control room I thought to myself "man, my guitar sounds as good or better than anyone's I have ever heard". For months after that I went around town feeling like a king. I knew it was only a matter of time before that record came out and everybody realized that "I was the man". Guess what? That record came out and I went down and got a copy to play for my friends on the home stereo and I was just waiting for them to fall down with amazement when I heard this weak, craoking, tiny little guitar noise erupting from the stereo and and I realizede my hopes of instant studio stardom were over. The souind onm that recording was so far from what it had sounded like at the studio I wasn't even sure it was me. I thought something had gone wrong but I also noticed that everything sounded weird. By that time I was pretty busy with this stuff and I talked to the producers and the engineers and they explained about how the sound alwasy loses something everytime you move to another format and by the time it hits the record it's way off. Despite what audiophiles think, LP's are not even close to the real thing. Not even the best of them They may be impressive in your home stero system but compared to the real thing, only a reasonble facsimile.

However,with digital recording (now that they gotten that worked out) and now with SACD I think we are closer than I ever thought we would get.

We are no longer a bunch of audiophiles standing in front of a copy of Mona Lisa and discussing the "copy" quality of the Mona Lisa. Now we are standing in front of the real Mona Lisa. Stand there long enough and you feel a breeze through your hair and the smell of farm animals. Hell, I think I just saw Mona Lisa winking at me or was I just delerious from the sound of an SACD.

Got to run.






Best
Brian