The Closed-Back Headphone Thread (Plus Comparisons & Reviews)

Oct 13, 2020 at 12:30 PM Post #496 of 6,831
It seems from your personal experience that all these AT HPs besides the ADX5000, are mediocre or almost garbage (meme) :)

Pretty eager to know your experience with good or great HPs.

Forgot to actually answer to your observation. AWAS are fine as they are honestly, like a different take on the already flawed ESW10 sound signature, I welcome that. It's just that there's no reason to get them now when I know for sure I can get them for their true value in 3 years' time. Overpriced? Basically, yes.
 
Oct 13, 2020 at 12:39 PM Post #497 of 6,831
To each their own, of course.

On the other hand, I now believe there's an upgrade path from R70x; so far none of the flagships I have listened to failed to impress me in proportion to their price. There's Focal Clear that's been slipping away from me though.
Amp matching with ADX5000 is gonna be a pain however, I can feel it.

I made a thread a while back (to be fair I was quite tipsy at the time) where I sang the praises of the R70X as I feel they punch well above their weight. I've since picked up a few more things that can be more "fun" but they are still my go-to all-rounders.
 
Oct 13, 2020 at 12:43 PM Post #498 of 6,831
I made a thread a while back (to be fair I was quite tipsy at the time) where I sang the praises of the R70X as I feel they punch well above their weight. I've since picked up a few more things that can be more "fun" but they are still my go-to all-rounders.

R70x makes market evaluation a bit wonky. They are priced around 300 and punch way above their head. And the range from 400 to 1000 is barren as it is. Anything mid-fi is a sidegrade/taste-based choice from R70x. If you want better you have to sell your kidneys for a flagship. Weird isn't it.
 
Oct 13, 2020 at 12:56 PM Post #499 of 6,831
The journey continues... just arrived.!

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Oct 13, 2020 at 1:01 PM Post #500 of 6,831
R70x makes market evaluation a bit wonky. They are priced around 300 and punch way above their head. And the range from 400 to 1000 is barren as it is. Anything mid-fi is a sidegrade/taste-based choice from R70x. If you want better you have to sell your kidneys for a flagship. Weird isn't it.

The Denon AH-D7200 have come the closest to unseating them, but it really is a preference thing. They are 'sweeter' (forgive me, I do not often have reason to describe sound signatures) with more low end (without getting boomy or overwhelmed by bloom, at least to my ears), and are just beautiful in appearance and construction next to the R70X's almost painfully utilitarian design. I think the R70X is still more technically capable, though they can get 'overwhelmed' and start to break up at high volumes the Denons do not flinch at.

Some of my other headphones do certain things better -- the Koss ESP-950 for example is the detail king, but the bass, while accurate, is weak, and the construction laughable. The Hyland Audio Jupiter 1 is amazing in it's own right and gets a lot of head time, easily my favorite open back after the R70X, but it's not near so accurate and can get boomy in the bass depending on the recording.

In the end I am spoiled by my speakers -- it is hard to touch 100Hz up 16x48 inch electrostatic panels and a pair of 12 woofers, even in a partially treated, far from ideal room. Truth is I only really mess with headphones because I want to be considerate of my neighbors but still listen to what I want when I want.
 
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Oct 13, 2020 at 1:21 PM Post #501 of 6,831
Today I had an opportunity to listen to the new AT flagship line at Scheherezade in Seoul.

All listening was done from a Hugo Chord TT2 they had.
Genres: female singer-songwriters, technical brutal death, bluegrass, gyaru pop, classical, EDM, atmospheric black, yuki kajiura, gothic/death doom, tribal ambient, folk rock.

ADX5000 >> AWAS >> AWKT >>>>> AP2000Ti >>>>> WP900

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Without further ado,

ADX5000

These are a proper high-end model. I'd even say they can put up a fair fight with the venerable HD800s when it comes to their technical ability. The size of the soundstage is not HD800s-big, but imaging is comparable, i.e. world class. Probably nobody knows for sure how psychoacoustics of soundstage work, but HD800s ends up presenting itself demanding immediate attention to how enormously over-competent its soundstage is, which in my case tends to detract from the immersion of listening. ADX5000 are simply said very precise in their handling of soundstage in that they give you all the accuracy that's needed to portray music, but stop at that exact threshold where more becomes less.
Transient response for these is excellent, they handle complex, layered music and challenging passages without making the listener think it could have been better.
Now these are really, really bright. Upper mids are not as underlined as usual for AT but they still are the centrepiece. I'm a fan of the AT in-house sound, so I have no complaints about that. But these also have lots of treble. I'd say overall it's more treble than say DT1990 but it's smoothed over a wider range so it doesn't end up as annoying.If I were asked to describe, I'd say 'unnecessarily prominent'. I get it that treble is needed for the illusion of clarity (a crutch ADX5000 doesn't need), sparkle (which is useful for select few genres really) and air. ADX5000 are incredibly airy, the violins have both body and air and sound frankly amazing, but it's still an overshoot in my opinion.
The bass is pretty good extension-wise, but there's not much of it. In general I divide bass into the visceral, the rubber and the boom. I'd say the rubber is a hair more prominent but overall it's very balanced. Quantity-wise, these lie somewhere in-between R70x and AD1000x. At around HD800s level, maybe a wee bit less.
In the end, a warm amp or EQing is needed, and classical, acoustic and vocals take precedence over other genres even though nothing really sounds ugly from these.
These retail for $2000 which I think is pretty fair comparing to other flagship models.

AWAS

Remember ESW10? AWAS sounds like an attempt to make a full-sized ESW10. These are very euphoric, with those mids. I haven't ever listened to W5000, but AWAS is nothing like W3000. W1000x might be closer, except those were kinda bad in multiple aspects, and AWAS doesn't have any objectively glaring issues. Technical ability of this pair is at around the level of DT1990 I'd say. Good mid-fi, but mid-fi nonetheless.
Bass is worse than the Beyers, in amount and in quality, but mids are better. I don't mean better = forward, by the way even though AWAS is a mid-centric pair. DT1990 isn't a headphone with very good mids, people just tend to not notice the fact for some reason.
Treble is again a bit of a miss. Usually, mid-centric ATs have a treble roll-off which actually does help to make them not too fatiguing, but with AWAS they went the ADX5000 route and added a whole bunch of it. I don't know what their thinking was because that treble fails at 'creating air' (not enough resolution) but still is annoying to listen to on some tracks.
I didn't think to pay attention to the soundstage, because in my mind you don't buy euphoric wooden ATs for the soundstage, but it was small-ish with adequate imaging coming from memory.
If you're a sucker for the fun-tastic, euphoric wooden AT sound, get these and just as with ADX5000, run them off a warm amp or EQ. ESW10 with better technical ability and wonkier FR.
These retail for $1400 which is way overpriced. I expect these to drop to $600-700 for used in about 3 years in Japan. Their true value is around $550, roughly the same as DT 1990, just the FR caters to a different taste.

AWKT

These are a disappointment. These have atypically recessed mids and even more treble than ADX5000 and AWAS.
On ADX5000 the violin has body and air around them. On AWAS the violin is very anime-esque, euphoric, but no air. On AWKT it just kinda rings in an ugly sort of manner while still having less body than on ADX5000.
tl;dr: everything that these do right ADX5000 does better, and everything these don't do right ADX5000 does more or less right except the treble. AWKT's treble is horrible however, and ADX5000's is just annoying.
Given that these retail for $1900 I don't see any reason for them to exist when ADX5000 is around.

AP2000Ti

It sounds like an attempt to make roughly what A2000x/z did well and blend it into a neutral-ish FR and a semi-portable form-factor. The fact is there that it's kinda rich to ride the subway with these on in 2020 but I digress.
The FR is pretty neutral (my standard is R70x). Imaging is adequate for mid-fi, soundstage is small, smaller than AWAS, on par with ESW10.
The thing that kills this pair is that something is terribly wrong with transients. For as long as the music is calm enough, you hear nothing criminally bad, but at the first notice of dense, layered passages these just fail miserably somehow. The music becomes an incoherent mess of decays running over subsequent attacks.
Bad, weird issues with transients, don't buy unless you can get away with paying literally not more than $350 for these. Mind you, these are still better than MSR7b. I feel like ES10 had less issues even though the sound tasted like metal on the tongue.

WP900

A wooden AT with a V-shaped FR. I don't feel like continuing.

Conclusion(s)

А. ADX5000 is a proper flagship.
B. ADX5000 treble is troublesome at times.
C. Use a warm amp with ADX5000.
D. ADX5000 is fairly priced in comparison to other flagships.
E. AWAS is made for those who miss that sweet euphoric AT sound.
F. AWAS treble is more troublesome than ADX5000.
G. Use a warm amp or EQ with AWAS.
H. AWAS true value is the same as DT1990. Waiting a couple of years is probably a smart idea.
I. AWKT is redundant because of its own issues and ADX5000.
J. AP2000Ti is very problematic. Better forget it exists.
K. WP900 is literally a meme.

Have a nice day!
Thanks for your impressions - it's nice to see contrarian views on a particular topic. :)

With that said, I actually prefer the ATH-AWKT to the ATH-AWAS. I was genuinely surprised that I'd pick the former, given my penchant for a more exciting signature; typically, with a stronger bass presence, to boot. Plus, I'm someone who's usually treble-shy, but I found the highs on the ATH-AWKT to be within the range of acceptability; brilliant, in fact.
 
Oct 13, 2020 at 1:41 PM Post #502 of 6,831
Thanks for your impressions - it's nice to see contrarian views on a particular topic. :)

With that said, I actually prefer the ATH-AWKT to the ATH-AWAS. I was genuinely surprised that I'd pick the former, given my penchant for a more exciting signature; typically, with a stronger bass presence, to boot. Plus, I'm someone who's usually treble-shy, but I found the highs on the ATH-AWKT to be within the range of acceptability; brilliant, in fact.

Yeah, it's a matter of taste. I disliked the idea a woodie with comparatively recessed mids. Technical ability-wise AWKT is more value per dollar than AWAS I'd say, because the latter is a mid-ranger really. I'd give a kidney for an AWAS with mellower treble and technicality of a flagship to be honest. The mythical summit-fi ESW10 :joy:
 
Oct 13, 2020 at 1:49 PM Post #503 of 6,831
I have almost no experience listening to stuff that came out after around 2013. Had to take a chunky respite from this hobby because reasons. Been looking to get back right into the sin from not so long ago. I think I even had a head fi account, but it's unrecoverable now.
I must note that I'm aware that what was hi-fi in 2012 is mid-fi now.


From what I can remember listening to for long enough to form a stable opinion:
AT: AD700, AD900, AD1000, AD1000x, AD2000, A1000x, A2000x, A1000z, W1000x, ESW9, ESW10 (still have them, need to repair tho), ES10, M50 (OG), MSR7b, R70x (my daily driver rn), W3000.
Senn: HD555>595, 600, 650, 660s, HD800, HD800s.
Beyer: 770/880/990,1770/1990, T5p, T90, T1, T1.2
HFM: HE4, HE6, old stuff basically.
AKG: K701
Grado: ancient stuff, PS2000e
Audeze: LCD2. Been meaning to listen to LCD4 for the longest time.
Final: different stuff, what they have in shops in Seoul.
Meze Empyrean
Sony MDR-Z1R
Shure 1840

That's stuff I remember listening to. Feel free to ask whatever
Thanks, that's quite a lot of experience you have with Audio Technica. I´ve tried the AWKT, AP2000ti, WP900, and the MSR7b (which is my preferred one so far). The first two were returned and the WP900 (meme) is on the contest to be a keeper for portable purposes.

The only ones you have there which I'm interested in are the MDR-Z1R, mostly because are referenced as V-Shaped and are supposed to be one of the most comfortable HPs all around.

While writing this message, I already heard 6 songs on the D9200, and the sound so far is "stunning".! My only concern was about comfort, people claiming about a hot spot with the headband... already feeling it, maybe psychosis). :)

Is good to see people from the other side of the fence making their case. Questioning always makes better decisions.!
 
Oct 13, 2020 at 1:49 PM Post #504 of 6,831
Yeah, it's a matter of taste. I disliked the idea a woodie with comparatively recessed mids. Technical ability-wise AWKT is more value per dollar than AWAS I'd say, because the latter is a mid-ranger really. I'd give a kidney for an AWAS with mellower treble and technicality of a flagship to be honest. The mythical summit-fi ESW10 :joy:
Interesting observations. I was just switching between my Veritie Closed and AWKT to compare the mids with a vinyl rip of Van Halen II. I don't share your sense of the mids as being recessed. The mids are definitely not "lush" in the way the ZMF are but I find the AWKT's mids extremely detailed and texture, and not in any sense lacking. I also don't sense the treble as "horrible" but treble tends to be a divisive frequency of many headphones.

I've yet to hear the ADX5000, as open backs are not my priority, but I've no doubt they're excellent and would indeed fancy a pair.
 
Oct 13, 2020 at 1:56 PM Post #505 of 6,831
I am always interested in others' audio preferences, especially those with entrenched tastes. I have always been someone who simply demanded gear exceeds a certain minimal threshold in technical ability; barring being bass light, I can accept many different flavors in sound. Neutrality, for example, has never been my goal. In many ways, this makes things tough on me as a consumer. I think it would have helped my wallet over the years if I had a specific sound signature I was after (again, beyond disliking decidedly bass-shy stuff).
 
Oct 13, 2020 at 2:05 PM Post #506 of 6,831
Thanks, that's quite a lot of experience you have with Audio Technica. I´ve tried the AWKT, AP2000ti, WP900, and the MSR7b (which is my preferred one so far). The first two were returned and the WP900 (meme) is on the contest to be a keeper for portable purposes.

The only ones you have there which I'm interested in are the MDR-Z1R, mostly because are referenced as V-Shaped and are supposed to be one of the most comfortable HPs all around.

While writing this message, I already heard 6 songs on the D9200, and the sound so far is "stunning".! My only concern was about comfort, people claiming about a hot spot with the headband... already feeling it, maybe psychosis). :)

Is good to see people from the other side of the fence making their case. Questioning always makes better decisions.!
Thankfully, I've never had any concerns with the AH-D9200's headband. I can use this headphone for a couple of hours (without a break), and I don't notice any issues arising from the top of my head. The pads, however, do cause some slight discomfort (as is the case with almost every headphone, though).
 
Oct 13, 2020 at 2:19 PM Post #507 of 6,831
Interesting observations. I was just switching between my Veritie Closed and AWKT to compare the mids with a vinyl rip of Van Halen II. I don't share your sense of the mids as being recessed. The mids are definitely not "lush" in the way the ZMF are but I find the AWKT's mids extremely detailed and texture, and not in any sense lacking. I also don't sense the treble as "horrible" but treble tends to be a divisive frequency of many headphones.

I've yet to hear the ADX5000, as open backs are not my priority, but I've no doubt they're excellent and would indeed fancy a pair.

My understanding of FR-to-taste conversion goes like this:
200Hz-1kHz is the fundamental frequency range for most instruments, vocals included. These are the body of the sound. In case of distorted guitars I like to call it 'the roil'.
3kHz is the sensitivity peak that's responsible for things like texture, crunch, most of timbral characteristics etc. This is where the traditional AT sound makes its stand. Note that technically, this is still in the extreme upper mid region, or at least the effects of this peak mask lower lying frequencies very strongly.
7-9kHz is the edge frequency. Or false detail, if you will. The Beyer treble peak zone. This range gets boosted in cheap headphones to mask poor technical ability. I always EQ this range down when doing critical listening to evaluate true detalisation at other frequencies.
15kHz is the air. I noticed that headphones with strong treble roll-off tend to sound muffled and lifeless (OR dark and romantic to other ears).


When I say AWKT has comparatively recessed mids I mean that the tuning in the 3kHz region is not as raised as I'm accustomed to or alternatively is being masked by something happening at 1-2kHz or 5kHz which I tend to dislike if boosted.


I think, in the end, people with stable sound signature tastes have a combination of their individual ear canal resonance frequency map multiplied by their genre/instrument/timbre preferences. It's one hell of a hard comfort zone to get out from. At the same time, people like yours faithfully--with dare I say wide musical tastes--have more incentives to sidegrade often because different instruments/genres play off different sensitivity peaks (e.g. distorted guitar is ¬400/3000/9000 and female vocals is ¬600/3000/15000 although mishandling of the 9kHz peak can cause sibilation or unpleasant, fatiguing character).
There are a few objective aspects, though. Handling of transients is pretty binary: fast decay for some music, slow decay for some. Soundstage size I believe has a sort of happy optimal point when it's big enough to be able to enclose and portray everything but not too big because that starts to detract from the actual music. Good imaging and instrument separation are unconditional boons.
 
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Oct 13, 2020 at 2:24 PM Post #508 of 6,831
Thanks, that's quite a lot of experience you have with Audio Technica. I´ve tried the AWKT, AP2000ti, WP900, and the MSR7b (which is my preferred one so far). The first two were returned and the WP900 (meme) is on the contest to be a keeper for portable purposes.

The only ones you have there which I'm interested in are the MDR-Z1R, mostly because are referenced as V-Shaped and are supposed to be one of the most comfortable HPs all around.

While writing this message, I already heard 6 songs on the D9200, and the sound so far is "stunning".! My only concern was about comfort, people claiming about a hot spot with the headband... already feeling it, maybe psychosis). :)

Is good to see people from the other side of the fence making their case. Questioning always makes better decisions.!
Congratulations, the Denon's arrived :wink: Precisely, the comfort is the aspect of the Denon's that worries me more. Try to adjust the headband one point more to don't have issues and please comment how you notice the pads (heat, sweat...). Thanks and enjoy.

I'm also deciding between Z1R or AH-D9200 because I returned the T1 rev 3 because of comfort problems.
 

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