[nsx_23]

How do you find a scooter for getting around? I'm considering buying a Honda scooter as my first bike (Honda CT110), but my friend advised me against it and told me to buy a "proper" 250cc bike instead, especially since I'll step up to something like a Honda CBR or R1 later on when I graduate.

I know they're not supposed to be uber fast, but something that will hit at least 80kph is kinda necessary here in Melbourne.

 

[Wmcmanus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cash68 /img/forum/go_quote.gif From my experience the better the person knows how a car works, the better the driver. I haven't met someone who can outdrive me, and still be ignorant of changing an axle/swapping suspensions.

You need to meet more people.

Anyway, I do kind of see your point, but not everyone builds everything they own or use, nor even has the faintest interest in doing so. How many people at Head-Fi build their own amps? What about headphones and sources? Do I respect Kevin Gilmore's amp designing skills? Sure, how couldn't I? Does he also have good listening skills? I'd imagine he does, although he doesn't seem to post much about that.

If the premise is that a track car, or any exotic car for that matter, whether purpose built for racing or not, should only be owned and driven by those who are capable of (and interested in) building them, tuning them, modifying them, replacing various parts in them, etc., then no, I simply can't agree with that. You don't have to be a die hard gear head to enjoy motorsports by participating in it at whatever level you're comfortable with.

That being said, yes, I'm sure the guys who tinker with their cars (like some of the guys at the AtomClub I know) get infinitely more pleasure out of the whole experience of ownership and use of their cars. They simply have a much greater appreciation for it. Same is true of a mechanical engineer who owns a high end headphone amplifier and can understand the ins and outs of the design, which tubes to use, what the implications are of various parts that are selected, etc. But that doesn't prevent someone else who doesn't have that kind of understanding (or interest) from getting immense enjoyment from the music that such an amp produces.

But from what I've read in many of your posts, you seem to have an issue with people who work behinds desks (by they lawyers, accountants, financial analysts, or marketing types, you know, MBAs and such). That's Ok, you're entitled to your oft expressed opinions.

 

[Wmcmanus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nsx_23 /img/forum/go_quote.gif How do you find a scooter for getting around? I'm considering buying a Honda scooter as my first bike (Honda CT110), but my friend advised me against it and told me to buy a "proper" 250cc bike instead, especially since I'll step up to something like a Honda CBR or R1 later on when I graduate. I know they're not supposed to be uber fast, but something that will hit at least 80kph is kinda necessary here in Melbourne.

I think your friend gave you good advice. Most scooters are pretty boring to ride as compared to a bike. For one, you're not changing gears, so that takes away a lot of the visceral feel. It would be like driving an automatic Z06 or something at that level. Doesn't make a lot of sense if you're interested in the "sport" of riding.

Another drawback to scooters is the upright (lady like) riding position on most of them. That, and you can't really corner very hard or even lean into corners much, or you'll scrape the undercarriage. Plus the wheels are much smaller than bikes use, so you don't have nearly as much control when you pick up the speed or have to make an emergency stop or turn.

There are some 250cc to 600cc "maxi" scooters in the market now that are essentially much the same (except the smaller wheels and the fact that they're automatic) as some of the larger "cruiser" bikes. These maxi scooters are relatively affordable, provide a great ride, and can cruise along at 100 mph with no problem. A lot of the older crowd in the US and Canada (the guys who work desk jobs, probably!) have gone this route and quite enjoy them.

Still not the same as a bike, but the typical owner is an older guy who is not really interested in power or speed or bragging rights, and they like the ride and believe it represents a good value. Different strokes. It wouldn't be my choice by any means if I lived in a place that had open highways.

But here in Cayman with the 40 mph speed limit, my 125cc Vespa is more than adequate. Trust me, there are a lot of crappy scooters on the road here that look like they're about to fall apart, but Vespas have some serious stealth (in relative terms) and my riding position is as far back as I can go (effectively sitting where my passenger should be, at least when I'm riding alone). So this gives me that nice, casual lean in riding position which provides a much greater sense of control.

I also use the passenger foot pags for my feet and the overall feel of the scooter, given its weight and my riding position is quite bike-like. I'm just not shifting gears and am restricted in terms of cornering, small-ish wheels, etc. It gets up well over 60 mph and doesn't struggle at all as far as power goes, so that's more than enough for the driving conditions on a small Island. But still, it's not the same as a bike. For here, it was the right choice, but in the US I'd definitely get a bike.

 

[nsx_23]

Yep, what I found was that most scooters I've been looking at (Honda Lead was another one) just wern't that comfortable for me.

I checked out some second hand Yamaha Viragos, and the cruiser position felt sort of weird. The "sports" position seemed to be the most comfortable one for me (ie I can imagine doing long trips like that).

This little fellow seemed pretty cool though, and wasn't expensive either: http://www.yamaha-motor.com.au/motor...p?modelcatid=8

But then, I'm restricted to 250cc or less on my learners. There's been heaps of cheap, chinese made scooters and bikes flooding into the market lately because more and more people are looking at scooters/bikes to get around in due to high fuel prices, but I'm keen to stick with a more proven brand (Yamaha, Kawasaki, Honda, etc) so that servicing and sourcing parts isn't a bitch. Also, something 2nd hand means that I can learn how about basic bike mechanics as well. The Sachs Express 150 would've been perfect for me if the importer didn't fold

The CT150 seems to be getting quiet popular with people since they're cheap, and easily available on the 2nd hand market because Australia post uses them, and regularly sell them after a few months of use. I was in the city today, and the number of "postie bikes" (thats what we call them) was ming boggling. To those inner city folks, it'll be fine, but to people like me who live away from the actual "city", something that only does 80km/hr seems very inadequate. Heck, my route to uni involves a 80km/hr road.

I'm absolutely bewildered at the amount of choice I have when it comes to motorcycles compared to cars, and opinions seem to vary heaps as well. Hyosung was on the radar, as some of their nicer sports bikes (ie more than 250cc) can be restricted so that they're learner approved (Road authorities here have this new thing where bike manufacturers can have fast sports bikes sold to Learners with limits on them, which can then be removed after 1 year and passing the full license test).

 

[Wmcmanus]

Whatever you decide, please don't skimp on protective gear. As uncomfortable as it can be, especially in the heat, wearing full leathers is a must if you're going to be driving at speed (and should probably always be worn in any event because even at 20 mph a bike crash can be deadly). Proper riding gloves and boots are essential as well.

Get a helmet that fits properly and is appropriately rated! Most people buy helmets that are too big, often more than one size too big. Not good if ever it is really needed. There are some knowledgeable people at some of the bike shops. If you're trying on helmets, and their main concern is sales rather than safety and they're letting you do your own fitting, chances are that's not the place to buy.

 

[nsx_23]

Oh yeah, you bet I won't skimp on safety gear.

The friend I've been speaking to says that he usually rides in something like this: Draggin Jeans - Manufacturer of motorcycle jeans and clothing, Kevlar lined jeans, jackets and cargo pants. According to him, they're still protective, and are more comfortable for riding in 40+ degree days (which we get here quiet a bit during summer). Having said that, I see myself riding more on the weekends for fun and just taking the Echo/Yaris most of the time for commuting (which isn't what I'd call heavy on fuel).

Either way, the good thing with helmets is that the ones on sale here must pass certain tests before being put on sale like bicycle helmets, so at least there is some sort of safety net. But either way, I'm going to ride with full leathers as much as possible. I'm out to enjoy riding, not to end up in hospital with severe skin abrasions and other nasty injuries (My sister worked in emergency for a while, and some of the cases she was were pretty damn scary).

The learner school where I'll be going has a full kit for sale for about $800AUD, and probably is what I'll get. Not the best in the world, but not rubbish either is what I want.

 

[DNA Doc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cash68 /img/forum/go_quote.gif From my experience the better the person knows how a car works, the better the driver. I haven't met someone who can outdrive me, and still be ignorant of changing an axle/swapping suspensions.

When I wrote "conversely, there are some excellent drivers who are not interested at all in building the car, wouldn't even know how, and would rather just write the check," the "wouldn't even know how" part was incidental. We were actually writing of those who did the work vs those who just pay for the work to be done. Knowing how a car works is not at all the same as wanting to build the car. Period.

Let me be very clear - I think it's a very good idea for people interested in performance driving to understand their car, to understand how automobiles work in general, and to understand the consequences of tuning decisions. (And I do).

Having written that, I think it's also true that there are many many people who spend far too much time toying with their car trying to get that last 1/10th, when in reality they should be improving their driving ability. There is a lot to learn about performance driving theory and technique that is absolutely automobile-independent (i.e., it is true and important regardless of what car you may be in). I still try to get time with instructors every time I'm at the track, and that time has made more of a difference to my driving than any tweaks to my suspension or any other modification to my cars ever did.

Finally, regarding your assertion "I haven't met someone who can outdrive me, and still be ignorant of changing an axle/swapping suspensions,", I invite you to come out my way, and I'll introduce you to a few people who will almost definitely turn yours into a false statement.

 

[cash68]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif You need to meet more people. Anyway, I do kind of see your point, but not everyone builds everything they own or use, nor even has the faintest interest in doing so. How many people at Head-Fi build their own amps? What about headphones and sources? Do I respect Kevin Gilmore's amp designing skills? Sure, how couldn't I? Does he also have good listening skills? I'd imagine he does, although he doesn't seem to post much about that. If the premise is that a track car, or any exotic car for that matter, whether purpose built for racing or not, should only be owned and driven by those who are capable of (and interested in) building them, tuning them, modifying them, replacing various parts in them, etc., then no, I simply can't agree with that. You don't have to be a die hard gear head to enjoy motorsports by participating in it at whatever level you're comfortable with. That being said, yes, I'm sure the guys who tinker with their cars (like some of the guys at the AtomClub I know) get infinitely more pleasure out of the whole experience of ownership and use of their cars. They simply have a much greater appreciation for it. Same is true of a mechanical engineer who owns a high end headphone amplifier and can understand the ins and outs of the design, which tubes to use, what the implications are of various parts that are selected, etc. But that doesn't prevent someone else who doesn't have that kind of understanding (or interest) from getting immense enjoyment from the music that such an amp produces. But from what I've read in many of your posts, you seem to have an issue with people who work behinds desks (by they lawyers, accountants, financial analysts, or marketing types, you know, MBAs and such). That's Ok, you're entitled to your oft expressed opinions.

Allow me to elaborate: Let's say I am driving in a racing simulator, like gran turismo. Now, I'm braking in, hitting the apex, gassing out, trying to maintain a smooth line, avoiding any heavy handedness while driving the car. Now... I can do this for any car, and simple react to the road, and drive decently. But if I am driving a FWD car, I can improve my performance by saying to my brain, "You are driving a FWD car. It is like your old neon, only slightly different. The dynamics will be similar", and when I go around a corner, or hit the gas, my brain can almost... "see" the suspension working, the power being applied to the front wheels, the braking balance and weight of the car shifting. If I am driving an AWD car, same thing, I can convince my brain it is like my SVX, only slightly different, and I will see improved times.

It is of my belief that without the fundamental knowledge of how a car is put together, what makes it work, how things are attached, installed, etc, you won't reach you true potential as a driver. As a driver, if you know your car intimately through wrenching on it yourself, it seems that this knowledge would only aid you in driving. Now, am I saying that a gear head will always out drive someone who's just driving a track car they purchased straight up? No. But I'm saying two people with relatively equal machines, track experience and knowledge, but only one of them works on stuff themselves.... I'd put the money on that guy.

Another example would be initial D. I realize it's just a cartoon (I normally hate Anime, but that series captured me), but there's a part in it where the main guy reaches his potential as a driver, but was largely ignorant of everything about his car. To break through that barrier, he began working on everything himself, with the help of his friends.

 

[cash68]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNA Doc /img/forum/go_quote.gif When I wrote "conversely, there are some excellent drivers who are not interested at all in building the car, wouldn't even know how, and would rather just write the check," the "wouldn't even know how" part was incidental. We were actually writing of those who did the work vs those who just pay for the work to be done. Knowing how a car works is not at all the same as wanting to build the car. Period. Let me be very clear - I think it's a very good idea for people interested in performance driving to understand their car, to understand how automobiles work in general, and to understand the consequences of tuning decisions. (And I do). Having written that, I think it's also true that there are many many people who spend far too much time toying with their car trying to get that last 1/10th, when in reality they should be improving their driving ability. There is a lot to learn about performance driving theory and technique that is absolutely automobile-independent (i.e., it is true and important regardless of what car you may be in). I still try to get time with instructors every time I'm at the track, and that time has made more of a difference to my driving than any tweaks to my suspension or any other modification to my cars ever did. Finally, regarding your assertion "I haven't met someone who can outdrive me, and still be ignorant of changing an axle/swapping suspensions,", I invite you to come out my way, and I'll introduce you to a few people who will almost definitely turn yours into a false statement.

I agree with you. 100%. The #1 factor is definitely tuning the loose nut behind the wheel. But part of that experience, and understanding, is getting to know automotive systems, interactions of dampers, springs, rollbars, grip, response, braking, fade, shifting, etc. Learning how to drive is very important, I'm not dismissing that. I'm just saying that the intimate knowledge of a vehicle can ADD to the driving knowledge.

 

[Rednamalas1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nsx_23 /img/forum/go_quote.gif How do you find a scooter for getting around? I'm considering buying a Honda scooter as my first bike (Honda CT110), but my friend advised me against it and told me to buy a "proper" 250cc bike instead, especially since I'll step up to something like a Honda CBR or R1 later on when I graduate. I know they're not supposed to be uber fast, but something that will hit at least 80kph is kinda necessary here in Melbourne.

I own a monster and my gf owns 250cc Vespa. Even coming off from a litre bike, I find the vespa to be fun and punchy, and good enough for those odd dry days around the city. While I wouldn't use them for daily commute (same with my bike, actually) They're quite useful for getting around.



Then again, a litre bike does feel fun in entirely different way.

 

[Al4x]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif Whatever you decide, please don't skimp on protective gear. As uncomfortable as it can be, especially in the heat, wearing full leathers is a must if you're going to be driving at speed (and should probably always be worn in any event because even at 20 mph a bike crash can be deadly). Proper riding gloves and boots are essential as well. Get a helmet that fits properly and is appropriately rated! Most people buy helmets that are too big, often more than one size too big. Not good if ever it is really needed. There are some knowledgeable people at some of the bike shops. If you're trying on helmets, and their main concern is sales rather than safety and they're letting you do your own fitting, chances are that's not the place to buy.

thats another big reason why i prefer a car, not having to have all that safety gear

 

[nsx_23]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rednamalas1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I own a monster and my gf owns 250cc Vespa. Even coming off from a litre bike, I find the vespa to be fun and punchy, and good enough for those odd dry days around the city. While I wouldn't use them for daily commute (same with my bike, actually) They're quite useful for getting around. Then again, a litre bike does feel fun in entirely different way.

Yes, a Ducati 996 will be my eventual bike

But what other 250cc options should I look at?

 

[Rednamalas1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nsx_23 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, a Ducati 996 will be my eventual bike But what other 250cc options should I look at?

Don't deal with 996 anymore. I was riding my friend's 996 for about 4 months (while he was away) and it's a horrible bike, especially considering that I'm not the best rider out there. Peaky power, finicky handling and noobishness doesn't mix well in a bike. And 1098s even harder to handle than 996. Don't do it unless you have spare limbs

.

 

[nsx_23]

Or looking for a quick way to go through the pearly gates

But anyway, entry level 250cc bikes. I'm willing to look at 2nd hand stuff as well, so recommendations? I think I'm going to stick with Japanese bikes for now.

 

[Rednamalas1]

I would suggest grabbing a softer-handling cruiser to get a feel of the bikes that you can afford to beat around - I tried 250cc Honda rebel, and they were pretty good for the price. Then if you feel confident enough, then you could move onto a 600cc touring bike or sports bike.

I doubt I can dig up all the potential of my Monster (due to my lack of riding skills), and I don't think I'll go crazy for a 1098