[smeggy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spaceconvoy I don't get it - why does the Orpheus sound so special. Maybe this sounds like a stupid question, but why is it $8000? Do they make the drivers out of albino crocodile skin? Seriously though, is it the materials and workmanship you're paying for (maybe it uses some rare metal or complicated manufacturing process) or are you paying for the engineering (some magically precise tuning between all parts of the entire system that took years to perfect)? Why can't it be mass produced?

No doubt it can be mass produced at substantially reduced cost, but then, what's a 'statement' product if it's not ridiculously priced or mass produced?

 

[spaceconvoy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by smeggy No doubt it can be mass produced at substantially reduced cost, but then, what's a 'statement' product if it's not ridiculously priced or mass produced?

I guess a better question is, why doesn't some other company mass-produce one? If a less than scrupulous Chinese company bought an Orpheus system, took it apart piece by piece, and built an exact replica to sell to audiophiles for say, $1000, they'd make a killing. Or would it just not sound the same? Is there some secret material or manufacturing technique that makes it special?

 

[smeggy]

I think it's just easier and a lot less risky to mass produce cheap, crappy mass-market stuff like clip-on's and buds. I'm not sure how many Chinese companies have the technical know-how and engineering capabilities to make somethig on the level of Senn or Stax.

 

[Kirosia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spaceconvoy Is there some secret material or manufacturing technique that makes it special?

Short answer: Yes

Long answer: Magic Pixie Dust

 

[sonance]

Sennheiser isn't even an 'electrostatic' company, per se. They primarily make dynamic headphones. That's the real miracle of the Orpheus - a dynamic headphone company making (arguably) the best electrostatic headphones.
In the speaker world, it would be like Dynaudio or Sonus Faber suddenly making a single statement electrostatic speaker that blows away the best Sound Lab, Quad, ML etc 'stats, when all those other companies make are planars or hybrids.
I think the one company that should realistically be able to respond to the Orpheus challenge is Stax. Electrostats are their bread and butter, and they should be able to look at the Orpheus and understand what makes it so good (and I don't mean that in a reverse-engineer/steal their secrets way.)
Maybe someday AKG or Koss or other companies that have a history with electrostats will revisit this technology, as advances made in the general field and the expansion of the high end headphone market makes it feasible and desirable.
Also, the Orpheus is out of production. Sennheiser needs to make a new currently available statement product.

 

[spritzer]

Making an electrostatic element is no easy task and building a bunch of them at tight tolerances is a lot harder. To make matters worse they used some exotic materials as glass stators and they can't be cheap, but ultimately the Orpheus is priced high because they can. It is limited in production and sought after so they can charge what ever they want.

The magic is that it can make sweet music 97% of the time. The only time I have heard it completely loose it is with some metal and then at its worst it is miles ahead of nearly all headphones. It has some major flaws that lesser amps mask and its comfort level is pretty low compared to say the Stax SR-Sigma Pro but on the whole it is at the very top of sound reproduction.

 

[neilvg]

I find the Headphones very comfortable, but a tad bit on the heavy side.
=====

Here's the way I see it. Sound is a matter of subjective taste. I think Stax believes they are making a product (Omega II) that outperforms the Orpheus, or at least competes with it. The issue here is, signature. The Orpheus, while not carrying the "Senn" sound in terms of how a 650 sounds (Ie: an Orpheus is NOT an awesome upgraded 650), it still has the Senn aesthetic in terms of overall sonic presentation. IE, it is very German.

Stax on the other hand has a darker sonic signature very much in the vain of say, the AT sound, and hence, this may not be the cup of tea for a lot of people (myself included).

Of course, beyond sound signature, the Orpheus just does everything well, but manages not to stand out in any one category while doing it. That is the true magic. Plus, it makes almost everything sound good! Listen to one if you ever get a chance!

Neil

 

[catscratch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by smeggy Catscratch, I guess that's why our Stax experiences really differ. I really dislike the Senn presentation and couldn't wait to get away from it.

Yes, that's it exactly. Different people hear differently. But, I should add, that I really did dislike the Senn presentation at one time and enjoyed the SR-404/SRM-313 a whole lot more. Then, somewhere down the line, my preferences changed, and I've grown to like the Senns over the SR-404. I sill maintain that the SR-404 is far more techically capable than the Senns, and is an amazing deal for the money.

I'm almost afraid to invest in an O2. I'll get it, and then my preferences will change again, and I'll be taking a bath on re-sale

It's definitely a bit harder to find sonic nirvana in a somewhat reasonably-priced rig if your definition of sonic nirvana keeps changing.

 

[Carl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg Dan - Deal! We'll agree. (but saying the same thing in different words is so much fun!) LOL. Anyway, can that equalizer thing be used with other Electrostats, or is it only really geared toward specific Stax headphones. IE, will it modify, improve the HE90 sound? Also, I've heard of a diffuse field equalizer, is this what this is?

The Sennheiser stats are already diffuse field equalised as part of their design. I believe the two Omegas are likewise.

You'll need to ask someone else the specifics, as I'm not a 100% on what it entails, but DFE is something like trying to mirror the frequency balance sound from speakers have after they've diffused in the room, rather than just offering a flat frequency curve, so as to give a more speaker like presentation. It's basically a branch of psychoacoustics.

Stax's various DFE units aren't compatible with the Senns, as they are matched to the frequency curves of specific headphones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg Here's the way I see it. Sound is a matter of subjective taste. I think Stax believes they are making a product (Omega II) that outperforms the Orpheus, or at least competes with it.

The Original SR-Omega was Stax's response to the Orpheus. I don't think you'll find too many people who think the Omega was overall better.

 

[smeggy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl The Original SR-Omega was Stax's response to the Orpheus. I don't think you'll find too many people who think the Omega was overall better.

That may be true, but the Stax was only, what, one third of the Orpheus price at the time? If stax really wanted to I'm sure they could come up with something that rivals the 'O' in all aspects including price, but for a small (much smaller than Sennheiser) company I don't think they can really risk it. They already went bust once. I feel Stax are perfectly capable of doing this if only they were bigger.

 

[dannyandelyse]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl The Sennheiser stats are already diffuse field equalised as part of their design. I believe the two Omegas are likewise. You'll need to ask someone else the specifics, as I'm not a 100% on what it entails, but DFE is something like trying to mirror the frequency balance sound from speakers have after they've diffused in the room, rather than just offering a flat frequency curve, so as to give a more speaker like presentation. It's basically a branch of psychoacoustics. Stax's various DFE units aren't compatible with the Senns, as they are matched to the frequency curves of specific headphones. The Original SR-Omega was Stax's response to the Orpheus. I don't think you'll find too many people who think the Omega was overall better.

You are spot on. The Far field diffuser works well with all lamda model phones.

 

[catscratch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl The Original SR-Omega was Stax's response to the Orpheus. I don't think you'll find too many people who think the Omega was overall better.

From Headwize:

http://headwize.com/projects/showfil...ilmore_prj.htm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Gilmore Stax Omega and tube amp (approx. $10,000 a pair). With the re-organization of Stax, this system is no longer available. The amplifier in this system is an all tube DC-coupled unit. When it was available, it was absolutely the best thing in the world!

I think this is referring to the SR-Omega/SRM-T2 combo. I also remember Darth Nut's review of the Omega II and the original Omega, in which he prefers both over the Orpheus.

So, there are some who don't prefer the big O. Personally, I absolutely loved the Big O when I heard it, and it was the best thing yet to my ears. But, I never heard either of the Omegas.

 

[Carl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by smeggy That may be true, but the Stax was only, what, one third of the Orpheus price at the time? If stax really wanted to I'm sure they could come up with something that rivals the 'O' in all aspects including price, but for a small (much smaller than Sennheiser) company I don't think they can really risk it. They already went bust once. I feel Stax are perfectly capable of doing this if only they were bigger.

The SR-Ω was 180,000円 and the SRM-T2 was 460,000円. That works out to 640,000円 (US$5500). The Orpheus was around 15000 euro. So yes, around three times the price.

However, the SR-Ω alone cost about 4000-5000 euro in Europe thanks to the German Stax distributers criminal markup. I think it's safe to say that if the Orphues was released in Asia instead of Europe the price would have been much less.


Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch From Headwize: http://headwize.com/projects/showfil...ilmore_prj.htm

Well, Mr Gilmore has strong opinions on things...

From a design point of view (not a sound point of view) the T2 is one of the most amazing amps ever designed. I don't thing there has been another headphone amp that was quite so overdesigned and overbuilt.

Quote:

I think this is referring to the SR-Omega/SRM-T2 combo.

It is, yes.

Quote:

I also remember Darth Nut's review of the Omega II and the original Omega, in which he prefers both over the Orpheus. So, there are some who don't prefer the big O. Personally, I absolutely loved the Big O when I heard it, and it was the best thing yet to my ears. But, I never heard either of the Omegas.

Did he ever use the HE90s with his T2? Now that would have been an interesting combo.

 

[senny-ftw]

darth senneyerdynamic RS-695c

Seriously though my HD555s seem to have some extra warmth vs the 595s, the 595s are tighter, the 600s have even more clarity and the vocals are more forward. A combination of all the positive qualities would be great!

 

[nextcube]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl The SR-Ω was 180,000Yen and the SRM-T2 was 460,000Yen. That works out to 640,000Yen (US$5500). The Orpheus was around 15000 euro. So yes, around three times the price. However, the SR-Ω alone cost about 4000-5000 euro in Europe thanks to the German Stax distributers criminal markup. I think it's safe to say that if the Orphues was released in Asia instead of Europe the price would have been much less.

Unfortunately, those #@%! distributer markups is something all highend products seem to suffer from. However, even the Sennheiser system should be regarded as extremely overpriced, and for a long time they didn't sell at all, so HUGE discounts were obviously given.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl The Original SR-Omega was Stax's response to the Orpheus. I don't think you'll find too many people who think the Omega was overall better.

Well, I'll have to disagree. I've read the few old magazine reviews around comparing the HE90s with the SR-Omegas, they all preferred the sound of SR-Omegas and concluded that not only did SR-Omegas rival the HE90s they surpassed them. Stax Mr. Gilmore isn't the only one with this opinion.

Secondly, I own a pair of Stax SR-Omega headphones, and I too prefer their overall performance over Sennheiser HE90s.

I've never heard the SRM-T2 amp, so I've no experience in this regard. However, should the amp ever surface, I'm sure that it would be worth buying. I'm still waiting...

On the other hand, I've heard the Orpheus amp and remember the reviews when it was released. Reviewers deemed built quality and performance poor and not up to par even with the SR-Lambda Signature System! Even standard technical measurements showed that the Orpheus had a few obvious problems with distortion and signal clipping.

If you find a used pair of Stax SR-Omegas, don't hesitate to buy them! IMO they are at least worth their original retail price. If some disagree, well that's just their loss.