[audiosceptic]

I have compared uncompressed WAV's coming off my home network through my SPDIF output on my MB to a Bolder smART DI/O and thought the sound was a huge improvement over a Rega Jupiter CDP. Even the Rega Jupiter connected to the Bolder DAC sounded different and not an improvement. I've discovered the same thing with my current Marantz DV6400 Universal CDP and have decided NOT to put good money into a quality CDP. I believe that a good external DAC is essential in providing quality sound from a computer based source and in my own personal tests is an improvement over CDP's in the ~$1,500 range.

 

[Zoide]

I'd actually consider myself on the comptuers-are-probably-better-than-cdps camp, but I do think that there may be problems when it comes to SACD's and DVD-A's.

Is there a way to play these on a computer?

 

[lan]

SACDs = no.

DVD-A = compromised on computer. no 192khz playback. the signal at 96khz won't be pure on most soundcards since it'll go through kmixer.

 

[Zoide]

Don't you always go through kmixer unless you use the ASIO drivers?

BTW, the Sonica does not support ASIO, right? Does this compromise its sound quality to a large degree? Is there any way of using ASIO with it?

 

[lan]

Well some cards bypass kmixer in directsound/waveout like the RMEs so it's no issue there. Kernel streaming also bypasses kmixer.

How much it compromises the quality depends on the quality of the card to begin with. So you will be able to notice the difference more on better cards.

 

[taylor]

A source is not necessarily confined to either be a sound card or a CDP. Get a card with a good digital output, a decent cd transport, and a good standalone dac, and laugh at the people who think you can't have the best of both worlds.

 

[Orpheus]

Quote:

Anyway, do you believe the best computer sound card, regardless of the computer it is stuck in, can stand up to the best stand-alone CDP?

most of your CDs are now mixed in Protools or Nuendo, which technically would be on a system using a "computer sound card." so, better than a CDP?--of course. but of course, these aren't ordinary 2-channel sound cards... systems start at $5000 for the cheaper ProTools set... and can easily go into 6 figures.

there is no limit to the performance of computer audio. again, the majority of currently recorded music is mixed on a computer. your cd player is just the very last piece in a long signal chain--all the important stuff has already been done.

 

[darkclouds]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orpheus most of your CDs are now mixed in Protools or Nuendo, which technically would be on a system using a "computer sound card." so, better than a CDP?--of course. but of course, these aren't ordinary 2-channel sound cards... systems start at $5000 for the cheaper ProTools set... and can easily go into 6 figures. there is no limit to the performance of computer audio. again, the majority of currently recorded music is mixed on a computer. your cd player is just the very last piece in a long signal chain--all the important stuff has already been done.

So, by your logic, the best sounding setup would be to use pro audio gear along with pro studio monitors? I mean, that's what's used to make the cds right?

 

[cjr888]

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkclouds So, by your logic, the best sounding setup would be to use pro audio gear along with pro studio monitors? I mean, that's what's used to make the cds right?

Question isn't directed at me, and not sure if its stated with a bit of negative tone or not, but...

In my mind....almost yes.

The 'general' pro audio world? No. But I could say the exact same thing as the 'consumer' or 'audiophile' world. There's a mass market for every consumer type. The pro audio world is riddled with crappy components in the same manner that the home consumer world is.

But there are loudspeakers and headphones and amplifiers marketed for professionals that meet the audiophile's requirements as well, though not always, as some parameters vary occasionally. For example a nearfield monitor isn't going to satisfy me if I'm looking for a home audio system for a large room. Extra connections, and professional connections might make my integration more annoying, but that doesn't equate to being wrong.

As for a source -- I would absolutely, absolutely love to have a professional setup -- a solid system, a solid card, and more than anything -- software, software, software, software.

If all audiophiles had the same preferences and sound tastes, there would be no audiophile market. Regardless of system matching, there wouldn't be people buying Jadis gear and others buying Krell. Why? Different tastes.

I think we can accept that there's a high end in any market if you look hard enough, and most people haven't heard the top of the line in the professional world, which would include PC/HD/Software sources. Why? Most of us are consumers.

But people play with cables, people play with different DAC implementations, some people like SETs, some people like transformer distortion, some people like vinyl, some people like crisp and clear, and on and on and on.....why? To tweak the sound to their liking.

The pro audio world is more about aiming for truth in the studio, though they have to cater to crappy car and boombox speakers and good systems as well. They listen on those as well. They have to modify recordings for whatever their need is as well as their liking and their values. Soften the sound? Present more detail? Make it louder? Clean up boomy bass? They tweak a recording to their requirement or their liking or both.....at source....at output they want the truth.

I think of the same thing on my preferences.

What do I want? A wonderful ICEPower based amplifier that will let anything I feed it through. What do I want feeding that? A PC source where through software I can tweak anything. Simulate a triode, simulate a transformer, upsample/downsample, equalize, play with the soundstage and presentation, play with dynamics, dither, crossovers, simulate filters, simulate tube gear -- I geat one box to play around with my sound...as source.

To me, those would be professional values translated into my own consumer need. And yes there's a market for it at that level and at prices and capabilities that meet or exceed a lot of the best 'audiophile' components.

This strays away from my software slant, but one toy I always wanted to buy that other people might find interesting is the HEDD192 http://www.cranesong.com/hedd192.html

 

[Hajime]

cjr888,

Would you mind sending me a few other examples of higher end pro gear through a private message? I find it interesting but I don't want to divert from this thread.

 

[stuartr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrith I still stand by my statement that the weak link of any audio system based on CD is the CD itself (which, even when brand new, cannot always be read without errors at 1x speed...so those $4000 CD players are sending BAD DATA to your $4000 amp and $20000 speakers / $1000 headphones). This fact makes the computer a MUCH better transport mechanism (especially when taking into account the convenience of music stored on a hard disk), in my humble opinion. I agree with the idea that the ultimate source is probably an external DAC, or, if you absolutely must have a transport that doesn't involve computers, a CD player (like the Meridian one mentioned a few posts up) with a giant hard drive that is set up in such a way that it rips the CD to the hard drive using a lossless format before playing it, like us computer users are already doing.

I think that computer based audio is only going to improve and certainly has the potential to equal the best stand alone players. I will offer two observations, but I admit as to not knowing or caring too much about this. I am extremely happy with my sources, and I don't see the need to upgrade, no matter how good computer audio gets.
1. It seems to me that sound-card based sources might currently be limited by real estate and components. Using my own ridiculous cdp as an example -- you have 35 lbs worth of op amps, huge power supplies, 8 dacs, etc. etc. If you could incorporate the incredible analog stage and power compents of the top-end cdp's into today's soundcards, I think you would have an amazing combination. Meridian seems to be sort of going this route with their cd rom transports.
2. I am not so sure about Scrith's statement that the CD is the limiting factor. Obviously the recording quality of the cd is often a huge factor, but I don't believe that perfect error correction necessarily equates better sound. These errors are so quickly blown by, that I doubt they have dramatic effect on the sound quality unless they are extensive. Why do I think this? Well, turntables. Turntables are a great example of something that will never give you a perfectly error free signal, yet the information that gets through is arguably superior to CD. Even if you disagree, if you have heard a good turntable, you cannot but admit that it sounds excellent, even if every once in awhile you are greeted with a hearty "pop". The point of this argument is that it is not just about the information that the component receives, but about how that component translates that information into sound. While my ipod mini may have a completely error free output (I don't know if it does, but you get the idea), it does not sound as good as my Cary 306/200, which must nefariously be hitting me with thousands of unnoticed errors in the bitstream. As I believe darkclouds said earlier -- I don't think cd players or any other truly complex system is the sum of its parts. It takes on its own life. Personally, I see no reason why computer audio cannot achieve this -- I just don't think it has gotten around to doing the cost no object R&D that they need to do to make this trickle down. Let's face it, the kind of quality in the 306/200, Meridian, Wadia, Audio Aero or DCS players would not be possible if not for the 20 years of research that came before them. Give it some time.

 

[Mastergill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orpheus most of your CDs are now mixed in Protools or Nuendo, which technically would be on a system using a "computer sound card." so, better than a CDP?--of course. but of course, these aren't ordinary 2-channel sound cards... systems start at $5000 for the cheaper ProTools set... and can easily go into 6 figures. there is no limit to the performance of computer audio. again, the majority of currently recorded music is mixed on a computer. your cd player is just the very last piece in a long signal chain--all the important stuff has already been done.

That's true but they don't use PT or any DAW for the superior sound quality, it's just much much cheaper and convenient than a big studio that will cost you $500k with a SSL or Neve like console.
There's the same sort of discussion on pro rec. forum, mixing in the box (computer) vs. using outboard gear...no way you cannot have the same quality with computer than with true dedicated gear.

A $5k cdp will always sound better than a $500 sound card like a $500k console + digital or analog tape machine will always sound better than the most tweaked $50k Protools rig.

A computer is a multi-task machine running with an OS that is not aimed only for audio (when it does not crash!), it cannot compete with a high-end cdp.

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkclouds How much does it cost to build a $4k speaker? I'm talking about parts wise. Compare that to the parts necessary for a computer, including monitor and peripherals. We're not dealing with a bunch of computer geeks here. The upcharge to make their profit margins will have to increase quite a bit over a stand alone cdp.

Have you seen what OEM manufacturers charge for computers? A computer with enough power for upsampling can be had for less than $500 retail. Then add in the costs of all the upgrades for audiophile use.


Quote:

How would you go about setting up a computer system as a main source for your speaker setup? Again, we're taking in the usual expected setup parameters.

Hmmm. Computer ---> Soundcard ---> Interconnect ---> Amp ---> Speakers. Not too difficult there.

You can get really fancy too, like setting up a VFD display with an IR remote so you can control it like a CD player. Or perhaps a small monitor extended from the computer right at your listening position. (there are even wireless touchscreen tablet monitors) Or for the folks that have a TV right between their speakers for the hybrid home theater, 2 channel setup (yes, most people in the world do not have a dedicated 2 channel listening room) they can use their TV as a monitor.
Computers come in all shapes and sizes as well. You can have all of the noisy storage in another room with a small fanless "client" computer networked to it. The installation possiblities are far more flexible than a huge box with a spinning disc inside.

Quote:

By the way, how many people do you know that would drop 1k on a soundcard vs 1k on a cdp? I know alot more who would drop the 1k on a cdp. Most of the people that are currently using their comp for music really aren't into audiophile. They are simply using their comp due to convenience. My guess is, most of them are using a creative lab based card. I know tons of people who are like that. And I can guarantee you that none of them would even spend $500 on a soundcard. I'm not saying that there are no interest for such a product out there; it's just that the demand for such a product is too low.

I thought this thread was directed at Head-fi folks and not the iPod luvin masses (no offense, portable folks,

)?

There is more than a little chance that a $1K sound card will sound a lot better than a $1K CDP. Of course we need to factor the cost of the computer itself. You can easily build a tiny music only computer for less than $500 with retail prices. With more DIY and buying a really cheap case, it falls to less than 2/3 of that price.

-Ed

 

[Orpheus]

(mastergill) yeah... you're right.

but there are "sound cards" that do equal the best CD players out there. and i mean THE best. there's just so much you can do with technology. after a while, you can keep pumping money into a product, but it just won't get any better. and a computer with a good AES/EBU input card with top-notch ADC's or DAC's is pretty much the same thing as a CD player. all the best "sound cards" anyway are all breakout boxes... even stock ProTools systems. so, either you got a link via Firewire or AES/EBU or whatever, it's still an interface + DAC/ADC.

hey, mastergill, you see the new Mix magazine?--SSL came out with an analog console that controls ProTools (or Nuendo or Logic.) pretty cool. costs $80k for a 24 channel 8 bus i think. and that's just the console. then you add the real protools system on top of that.

 

[Mastergill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orpheus but there are "sound cards" that do equal the best CD players out there. and i mean THE best. there's just so much you can do with technology. after a while, you can keep pumping money into a product, but it just won't get any better. and a computer with a good AES/EBU input card with top-notch ADC's or DAC's is pretty much the same thing as a CD player. all the best "sound cards" anyway are all breakout boxes... even stock ProTools systems. so, either you got a link via Firewire or AES/EBU or whatever, it's still an interface + DAC/ADC. hey, mastergill, you see the new Mix magazine?--SSL came out with an analog console that controls ProTools (or Nuendo or Logic.) pretty cool. costs $80k for a 24 channel 8 bus i think. and that's just the console. then you add the real protools system on top of that.

OK, Orpheus, but by "sound cards" you mean "external sound cards" right?.
Using computer as a data storage is ok (but still not the perfection for me, call me old school but i don't trust hard drive, i love having my stuff printed on tape...analog or digital...or real CD) you can still use the best outboard DAC and compete with top-notch cdp...but as Markl stated in the beginning of this thread it's about "in-board" sound card, inside the computer.

About the $80k SSL yeah, cool, but some guys say it's too much expensive for what it does. Me, i would buy Forssell all tubes channel strip replacement for Sony console...or check eBay, there's some amazing deal for good old analog console ( I saw some killer 24 channel Studer at $7k !! in very good shape! )