[RGA]

Many years ago I came across a salesperson that once told me about his 10 to 1 theory of headphones. Take a GOOD set of headphones and for every dollar you spend on them, you would need to spend roughly $10.00 to get as good a sound from good speakers. So you would need to spend $3000.00 on GOOD speakers to rival GOOD $300.00 Cans. Obviously he said the sound is not the same for there are certain inherent advantages with speakers and headphones. But, for what headphones do best, speakers require 10 times the financial outlay to match.

I must admit that since purchasing the HD600s I must agree. Inexpensive speakers seem to have so many more problems than I had previously not noticed. Headphones act as a reference point to speaker shopping.

I have a feeling that this applies to headphone amps as well. I can’t wait to start shopping for one.

 

[DanG]

I strongly doubt that you can really say that if you spend $200 the HD 600, that there is no good speaker under say $2000 that can compare.

Even if the 600 can compete with, say, $1000 Bose speakers, choosing one of the best values in headphones and comparing with one of the worst values among speakers is not fair. How about comparing the $100 MDR-V600 with my $235 Axiom Millenia M3Ti? My speakers definitely beat the V600.

Just ask Flumpus if he thinks the HD 600 is better than his Concertinos.

 

[RGA]

Remember I said Good headphones to Good Speakers. Also, I said their are inherent qualities in speakers that headphones can't compete with. For example: Depth of soundstage...realistic imaging...etc.

What headphones can garner is accuracy, lower distortion, a different kind of soundstage, controlled bass response...many floorstanding speakers at 2k don't do much justice to bass. Most Standmounts don't even try.

Remember, they don't have to build big drivers and boxes and huge shipping costs etc.

 

[jude]

I don't agree with the "10 to 1" generalization. I can say, however, that I've heard a bazillion different hi-fi systems in almost every price category, and, to my ears, my current main headphone system provides me with the sonic enjoyment of just about any of them.

Where no headphone rig can match a very good to excellent speakered hi-fi rig is the tactility of bass and great soundstage (and these are big sacrifices). But I still haven't heard a speakered system at any price give me infinitesimal, microscopic details served to me by main headphone rig -- mind you, the transducers are resting on my ears, avoiding listening room issues (standing waves, varying reflectivity/absorption of the myriad surfaces in any room, etc.).

I can only imagine what a Stax Omega 2 rig would provide. If I can ever see the HeadRoom caravan, I won't have to imagine.

For me, headphone listening is a matter of necessity. I work in a smaller office setting, so speaker listening is out of the question. And much of my listening at home is during the late night hours, so, again, speaker listening is out of the question. And there is also a certain sense of listening intimacy -- just me and my music, with nothing in between -- that comes with good headphone listening.

 

[MacDEF]

The 10:1 ratio is supposed to refer to the cost of the entire audio production *system,* not just headphones vs. speakers. It also refers to the costs of the environment in which the systems are listened.

A very good headphone amp and headphones can be had for $600, with one of the best combos available (HD600 and Max) for less than $2000, cables included (even with Clou upgrades). In order to get a set of speakers that offer comparable sound, good speaker cables, and (most importantly) a preamp/amp that can drive them to their potential, you're talking over $10,000, IMO.

In terms of environment, a headphone system doesn't need it (other than not being placed on the shoulder of the nearest interstate

). Speaker-based systems, on order to sound their best, need appropriate room/acoustics.

Of course, any good speaker system is going to give you things that headphones can't, just as headphones are going to give you things loudspeakers can't -- my $2000 NHT/NAD system can produce accurate bass that headphones never will, just as my $2000 headphone system can provide detail that few loudspeaker-based systems anywhere can reproduce. Once you start talking subjective preferences, this whole debate is pretty meaningless. But if we're just talking high-end reproduction, I think the ratio argument is pretty valid.

While 10:1 is tough, once you include everything else, I'm inclined to buy it, or at least a ratio pretty close.

 

[Duncan]

Hmm...

My Cyrus 751 (Original 1994 version) speakers sound equally as good (if not at times better) than my Senn HD580s, and they are only worth 50% more

I know one system i'd love to have though... the Harrods reference system, the last time i saw that little beauty it was demoing, and was playing organ music REALISTICALLY (and that doesn't happen every day!)... trouble is, that system costs £22,000

although, that is cheap, if you consider that in the early 1990s Tannoy made a pair of speakers (the Westminsters IIRC) that cost £45,000 (or... for the Americans amongst us $64,500!!)

There is just no stopping this hi-fi milarky

 

[Flumpus]

Ya, I'm gonna have to disagree here...

My reasons? Well, first, personal experience. I used to think like this, until I auditioned my speakers (the Concertinos dang mentioned above)... they sounded great! Compared the the Rs-1's, msp's, and my current hd600's, they were much more enjoyable to listen to. I just get a better sound from them (IMO) than from my hd600's. Imaging has a great deal to do with it too...you just can't get the same imaging from headphones.

Now, sure, my senn's have better bass response, but I don't really miss it. One thing I should point out... this was with the mg head dt... I'm planning on trying something much more high end in the near future, and maybe some of this will change. I doubt it though.

Headphones definitely have their place, especially for times when you can't listen to speakers (late at night, portable, etc...)... Even when you're in a different mood headphones sometimes fit the bill. So I'll always have a good headphone setup hangin' around, I just enjoy speakers more, and I didn't spend 10x what I did on my headphones to get my speakers setup either

 

[rickcr42]

I also do not agree with the 10:1 ratio , but I will say it is easier to get it right with headphones than with speakers.Speakers are WAY more environment sensitive and equipment matching is also paramount

Take a great speaker,put it in the wrong room and drive it with improper amplification....................piss poor sound

I have seen folks try to place big ass subwoffers in smal rooms then compound that by placing it in a corner .

what they get ? BOOM_BOOM_BOOM ,BOOMbaboom

We all know that live bass does not sound like that,it is more of an impact,pressure,you FEEL rather than hear it

Quick tip for setting up a sub (I know,off topic AGAIN

)

Put the subwoffer in the spot where you will be SITTING when you actually listen to it.Then walk around the room (with music on of course) and listen for the "sweet spot" , the most realistic bass

PUT THAT SUCKER RIGHT THERE !

Tip #2

play some FM radio,when the anouncer comes on,set the subwoof level control at a point where a male voice does not change with the sub on or sub off.you will still get the low notes,just not overemphasized

But what do I know ? Do what you want,gonna anyway

Rickasaurus

 

[redshifter]

rick, with sub placement a good spl meter is your best friend.

 

[Tim D]

The funny thing about speakers is you really ought to have your own perfect room/house/neighbors for your speaker system. Most college folk and younger usually aren't going to have this. And most older guys probably won't have a significant other giving you an entire room to be mostly sparse and ill-decorated. But boy if you are older, have no significant other/s, live in a lonely house/apartment than you sure are one lucky guy huh...ok maybe not?

Besides that I don't think price/performance differs that much as you can do pretty well in either if you shop smart. Its mostly convenience/privacy for me.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

I've had to think about this issue quite a bit and I'm very encouraged to see the above comments because I think that the 10:1 ration is a bit too high, and the above comments tend to reflect that general opinion.

I, too, think speaker system will generally outperform headphones in imaging and the ability to deliver a visceral experience---which is often simplified by saying "better bass"--- and headphones will generally outperform speakers in terms of resolution. Both have wickedly obnoxious problems amongst the cheap solutions; both have fairly wide distribution of price performance ratio, but I think headphones are worse in this regard; both catagories have bargain products (Grado SR60, PSB speakers).

All things considered, I think that headphones are able to deliver performance parity at a price of somewhere between 5 to 8 times lower. I think you need to show a spread because even if you throw out overpriced products, some products are bargains and some products are priced fairly.

I think, generally that the multiple for headphones is better than with headphone amps. The Sennheiser 600 at $300 is easily as good as a $3000 pair of speakers, but you HAVE to include that amp part of the equation when making the overall generalization and a Maxed Home (which I think is the best price/performance high-end amp) at $1000 should be compared with a $3000 to $5000 amp, IMO. One added complication is that the Headphone amp does have a volume control, so to some extent part of the preamp cost of the speaker system should be factored in.

Although I don't think you can factor it in, I think we have to recognise the natural preferability of speakers. When given the choice, I prefer to listen to speakers (SACRILIGE!). I think this may be a more difficult question: How much more preferable is speaker listening over headphone listening (ignoring the aplication specifics, obviously)? I think this advantage is pretty big....maybe even as high as 5-8:1! I think this occurs because we tend to pschologically accept the experience as more "real" on speakers than we do headphones. For example, I think this may be why there is a tendency to listen to headphones louder than speakers. I think that when we listen to speakers, our subjective experience somehow weighs the amount of horsepower being pumped into the room and partly percieves that in the overall perception of volume. On headphone, we likewise feel the weight of energy in the system, which is small, and tend to percieve headphones as not as loud, even though the actual SPL at your ears is the same.

At any rate I've allways felt I could justify (and I do have to from time to time) a 5:1 to 8:1 price/performance advantage with headphones.

 

[RGA]

Interesting responses.

Indeed, Speaker listening has the party factor that must be added. I'm not suggesting that headphones replace speaker system...and with everything Audio the law of diminishing returns is a very real issue. You may say that the HD600s with a list of $450.00 can match good $4500.00 speakers in all the things that haedphones do well...but obviously headphones can't do at any price, all the things a speaker can do.

One might agree that a $400.00 headphone can match, reasonably closely, most things a 4k speaker can do.

But would one say a 4k headphone can match a 40k speaker?
Then there is the king of headphone VS the kind of speaker. Grado headphones remind me a lot of speakers incorporating metal domes like Paradigm...Compare the Grado to say B&W or better yet Martin Logan and ones percption can change dramatically at how well a headphone competes.

Sennheiser has been said to be a little laid back...but that depends on what you're used to...EX: If I own Castle speakers that Senns will seem a little forward...while Grado will be unlistenable. If I own Klipsh or Cerwin Vega...Sennheiser will seem VERY laid back while Sony may fit the bill.

 

[coolvij]

I *think* the 10:1 ratio is meant to be intrepreted this way:

To MATCH a headphone's performance in a speaker, one must spend 10 times as much.

I think Flumpus has a more enjoyable speaker setup...one that I'd kill for.

However, I don't believe it MATCHES his HD600...they sound very different...

And I do think 10 is a little high....but if you include source, amp, interconnects, and headphones vs. source, preamp, power amp, speaker wire, and speakers....maybe it does work.

 

[Flumpus]

coolvij, very good point. It's very hard to compare listening to speakers and headphones. I guess when it comes right down to it, my hd600's produce a more sonically accurate representation of the music, but if you take into account imaging and the "visceral experience", the speakers are more enjoyable, to me at least.

I really want to try the akg k1000's with the cary amp... I was talkin' to vka last night, and he said the imaging was perfect, better than any speakers because you don't have to mess with placement or the room. This would be awesome

And add that subwoofer mod... Anyway, just my thoughts...

 

[MacDEF]

coolvij, check out my post up there... I agree with you