[UseName]

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Two points... 1. I have a very resolving, high power setup. It's possible that people don't know what I'm referring to (most people seem to be drawing a blank) when I talk about the digital noise because their system doesn't put stuff under a microscope like mine does. I don't hear the same music when I listen to my HeadRoom Desktop setup; it's a sweet setup, but things are much less resolved on it. 2. The digital noise reduction compound is patented. I'm not a patent lawyer, but doesn't there have to be some evidence that it does what it says to get a patent?

Nick_Charles pretty much covered 1 better than I could.

2. Absolutely not! Patent protects the inventor's invention, if the invention is garbage, the garbage is protected. There doesn't have to be proof of it working anywhere. Unfortunately, many people think it means something, so you will always see "Patented Design" on many products, as if it were a feature.

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think people might be misinterpreting the levels that I'm speaking of. The B-52 is an EXTREMELY loud headphone amp, capable of pushing cans quite a bit further than most. I never listen to it at half level unless it is a really quiet recording. If I were to do so, I would have to strain to hear the hiss, and it would only be audible during silent sections. The hiss is very obvious at full blast, but I'd be willing to bet that the B-52's full blast is three or four times as loud as most headphone amps (it certainly is much louder than my HeadRoom Balanced Desktop). Full blast on a B-52 is immediate hearing damage. This is about an audio obsessive. 99% of people probably wouldn't have even noticed the hiss until it was pointed out. But I'm looking for perfection, and I am a firm believer in low level details being the heart of music reproduction.

There is no way the B52 is 3-4x louder than most headamps. You likely have more voltage gain and a louder output lower on the volume control. But, at some point the amp will clip well before you max out the volume control. The amp with less voltage gain will go farther on the volume control before clipping and sound essentially the same loudness at their respective peak power outputs; before clipping.

The hiss you are hearing AT FULL VOLUME sounds like tube rush = the thermal noise of the tubes themselves. This hiss is characteristic of a lot of tube amps because the high voltage gain pushes through the noise floor to become audible at high levels. Put a higher gain input tube in the amp and the hiss will worsen; put a lower gain input tube in the amp and the hiss will decrease. Have you changed tubes recently?

The cd player has an analog output stage that is likely the source of noise. The digital section is very likely quieter than the analog output stage. I doubt very much you are hearing digital noise.

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by UseName /img/forum/go_quote.gif Nick_Charles pretty much covered 1 better than I could. 2. Absolutely not! Patent protects the inventor's invention, if the invention is garbage, the garbage is protected. There doesn't have to be proof of it working anywhere. Unfortunately, many people think it means something, so you will always see "Patented Design" on many products, as if it were a feature.

Digital noise reduction compound?

Ferrite beads will filter out RF noise and dull the top end .... but unfortunately takes much of the high frequency extension with it.

 

[UseName]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover /img/forum/go_quote.gif There is no way the B52 is 3-4x louder than most headamps. You likely have more voltage gain and a louder output lower on the volume control. But, at some point the amp will clip well before you max out the volume control. The amp with less voltage gain will go farther on the volume control before clipping and sound essentially the same loudness at their respective peak power outputs; before clipping. The hiss you are hearing AT FULL VOLUME sounds like tube rush = the thermal noise of the tubes themselves. This hiss is characteristic of a lot of tube amps because the high voltage gain pushes through the noise floor to become audible at high levels. Put a higher gain input tube in the amp and the hiss will worsen; put a lower gain input tube in the amp and the hiss will decrease. Have you changed tubes recently? The cd player has an analog output stage that is likely the source of noise. The digital section is very likely quieter than the analog output stage. I doubt very much you are hearing digital noise.

If this is the case, why would the problem be corrected by changing cords?

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by UseName /img/forum/go_quote.gif If this is the case, why would the problem be corrected by changing cords?

No idea. But, IMO, what he is describing is not digital noise. He should unhook the amp from the cd player IC's and turn the volume full up. If he hears hiss that is tube rush. At this point we cant even be sure where the hiss is coming from.

 

[Vul Kuolun]

The internet is a fantastic place.

You can put up hypothesis worth the next nobel-price in physics while not even owning a DMM. Amazing!

 

[yotacowboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The digital noise reduction compound is patented. I'm not a patent lawyer, but doesn't there have to be some evidence that it does what it says to get a patent?

I'm not a patent attorney, but here's a little info:

Utility patents may be granted to anyone who invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, article of manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof.

Design patents may be granted to anyone who invents a new, original, and ornamental design for an article of manufacture.

The nature and purpose of patents is not necessarily to prove or disprove anything, but to protect intellectual property. The two words that tend to stick out in the legal definition are "novel" and "un-obvious". They don't have much to do with "scientific validity".

and for $hits and giggles, here's one of Shunyata's patents:

United States Patent: 6545213

Kind of interesting - its a similar idea to the VD cables that are so entertainingly lambasted 'round here, but using some specific piezoelectric and ferrous materials in a little different configuration.

as far as the original topic: I'd be interested to hear your opinions on what a PC with a lifted ground would do, or a shield tied to ground at the wall vs. at the player; if you hear any differences.

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover /img/forum/go_quote.gif The hiss you are hearing AT FULL VOLUME sounds like tube rush = the thermal noise of the tubes themselves. This hiss is characteristic of a lot of tube amps because the high voltage gain pushes through the noise floor to become audible at high levels. Put a higher gain input tube in the amp and the hiss will worsen; put a lower gain input tube in the amp and the hiss will decrease. Have you changed tubes recently? The cd player has an analog output stage that is likely the source of noise. The digital section is very likely quieter than the analog output stage. I doubt very much you are hearing digital noise.

That's what I though originally (about the tubes causing the noise) but it only happens with the CD player.

As to my "digital noise" thing... you may be describing what I'm talking about. If I remember what Ray told me, it was that CDs have extremely noisy op-amps. I assume that's digital, but I'm not an engineer. The op-amp issue is what the Shunyata attempts to correct.

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover /img/forum/go_quote.gif Digital noise reduction compound? Ferrite beads will filter out RF noise and dull the top end .... but unfortunately takes much of the high frequency extension with it.

Yep, and this is why Shunyata says they don't use ferrite.

 

[vcoheda]

whatever the source of the noise, it seems that the power cord has lessened it. this aligns with my belief that power cords filter and ICs adjust tone. they don't seem to do anything more or less. but to say that they do nothing is absurd to anyone who has spent a lot of time with different types and levels of gear.

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's what I though originally (about the tubes causing the noise) but it only happens with the CD player. As to my "digital noise" thing... you may be describing what I'm talking about. If I remember what Ray told me, it was that CDs have extremely noisy op-amps. I assume that's digital, but I'm not an engineer. The op-amp issue is what the Shunyata attempts to correct.

The noisy op amps are almost assuredly the cd players ANALOG output stage.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover /img/forum/go_quote.gif The cd player has an analog output stage that is likely the source of noise. The digital section is very likely quieter than the analog output stage. I doubt very much you are hearing digital noise.

Even the final output noise (analog) on a decent CD player is pretty damn low. The Linn isn't the quietest player in the world perhaps but it manages an SNR of about 108db. By comparison an amp can be a lot noisier, the spec for the B-52 states and SNR of 90db, which is actually pretty damn quiet and inaudible in all but extreme situations, but that is 8x the noise level of the CD player, so any noise from the CD player would be easily swamped by the noise from the amp.

 

[sejarzo]

So the thread titled "That night and day thing the cable skeptics fear..." started here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've found it... the holy grail of power cables, one that makes a difference so audible a semi-deaf person could hear it! .... You're going to hear a hissing sound, and it's going to be fairly loud.

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I can't be the only person here who knows about the digital noise thing, am I?

Paused here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Maybe others have this hiss, but it is so quiet unless you crank your amp that they just never noticed it.

And now it's somewhere around here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif 99% of people probably wouldn't have even noticed the hiss until it was pointed out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I wouldn't say there was a night and day change in actual performance during normal listening, although there seemed to be a small amount.

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif Even the final output noise (analog) on a decent CD player is pretty damn low. The Linn isn't the quietest player in the world perhaps but it manages an SNR of about 108db. By comparison an amp can be a lot noisier, the spec for the B-52 states and SNR of 90db, which is actually pretty damn quiet and inaudible in all but extreme situations, but that is 8x the noise level of the CD player, so any noise from the CD player would be easily swamped by the noise from the amp.

I agree. My first guess would be the amp itself. That is why I asked inf he changed tubes recently. If he has ruled this out the cd players output stage is my second guess. I think something is being missed as a phono stage universally has higher gain and more noise than a cd player.

One thing I just thought of is .... where are the cd players IC's located in relation to the power cord .... and were the IC's or past power cord shielded. The IC's from the cd player to the amp could be picking up power supply hum from the other power cord whereas the new power cord has a different path or is shielded.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover /img/forum/go_quote.gif IThe IC's from the cd player to the amp could be picking up power supply hum from the other power cord whereas the new power cord has a different path or is shielded.

Yes, but the OP insists that the problem is Hiss not hum.