[analogsurviver]

  That chart is accurate. Even the upper harmonics on acoustic instruments don't reach beyond 15 or 16kHz. The exception is cymbals and triangles, but the upper harmonics aren't audible anyway because they are masked by much louder lower frequencies. Naturally, synthesizers can produce very high frequencies, but in practice, they usually stick in the same range as real instruments.

Sorry, cymbals never did sound real to me on CD. IIRC, you mentioned that you do not like "pressure" these high overtones produce - but I crave for it. For me, it means it is (close to) real. CD sounding like McDonalds compared to some slow food decent quality (not necessary expensive ) restaurant.. It simply lacks certain je ne sais quoi to be believable to me.
 
I agree synthesizer are used mainly up to 20 kHz and not beyond; they usually explore world below 16 hz.
 
Violin can also go beyond 20 kHz - rarely, but can.

 

[RRod]

  Sorry, cymbals never did sound real to me on CD. IIRC, you mentioned that you do not like "pressure" these high overtones produce - but I crave for it. For me, it means it is (close to) real. CD sounding like McDonalds compared to some slow food decent quality (not necessary expensive ) restaurant.. It simply lacks certain je ne sais quoi to be believable to me.
 
I agree synthesizer are used mainly up to 20 kHz and not beyond; they usually explore world below 16 hz.
 
Violin can also go beyond 20 kHz - rarely, but can.

 
That's just it: they don't produce much pressure at all, at least not enough to be decipherable from the much louder and actually audible lower frequencies that are blasting our ears at the same time.
 
As an example for all: here's some spectrographs from one of my hi-res files (original 24/96, down-up-sampled 16/44.1, difference):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwmVtb5IwniEOWdMNDZfVWlGaEE/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwmVtb5IwniEYTZFdUlSTGRac3c/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwmVtb5IwniEMzNzYmNrdXB3OXc/view?usp=sharing
 
Here's the flac file of the difference:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwmVtb5IwniEd3d3cHpGQ0tYb0E/view?usp=sharing
 
Note for yourself, avid reader, how high you have to turn up your speakers before you are aware of the high frequency pressure, if you ever actually can detect it at all. Then imagine turning on the actual music part of it with the volume set to that level. I take no responsibility for any machinery or organic matter blowing up*.
 
*seriously, test at your own risk

 

[analogsurviver]

   
That's just it: they don't produce much pressure at all, at least not enough to be decipherable from the much louder and actually audible lower frequencies that are blasting our ears at the same time.
 
As an example for all: here's some spectrographs from one of my hi-res files (original 24/96, down-up-sampled 16/44.1, difference):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwmVtb5IwniEOWdMNDZfVWlGaEE/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwmVtb5IwniEYTZFdUlSTGRac3c/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwmVtb5IwniEMzNzYmNrdXB3OXc/view?usp=sharing
 
Here's the flac file of the difference:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwmVtb5IwniEd3d3cHpGQ0tYb0E/view?usp=sharing
 
Note for yourself, avid reader, how high you have to turn up your speakers before you are aware of the high frequency pressure, if you ever actually can detect it at all. Then imagine turning on the actual music part of it with the volume set to that level. I take no responsibility for any machinery or organic matter blowing up*.
 
*seriously, test at your own risk

I listen at realistic volumes of live music- if the equipment allows - and not above it. I would never say "listen to this file from second x to second y at + 20 dB or something in that direction.

 

[RRod]

  I listen at realistic volumes of live music- if the equipment allows - and not above it. I would never say "listen to this file from second x to second y at + 20 dB or something in that direction.

 
I didn't say you did. The warning is for the general reader, who might not pick up on these frequencies at normal levels.

 

[analogsurviver]

  You don't need to compare the two natively. Take your DSD file, convert it down to 16/44.1, then convert it back to DSD. Compare this file to the original. Both are DSD in the same format, eliminating your concern.

 

  You don't need to compare the two natively. Take your DSD file, convert it down to 16/44.1, then convert it back to DSD. Compare this file to the original. Both are DSD in the same format, eliminating your concern.

True - but you STILL can not use Foobar ABX - it will convert both DSD files to PCM as adjusted in Foobar.
 
It has been said before that conversion between DSD and PCM is NOT a lossless process. It does help converting lowly PCM (redbook included) to at least DSD128, as there FAR less sharp filtering can be used - but going from DSD to PCM brings the worse of both worlds, some conversion loss and requirement to use brick filtering.

 

[castleofargh]

 
Sorry, cymbals never did sound real to me on CD. IIRC, you mentioned that you do not like "pressure" these high overtones produce - but I crave for it. For me, it means it is (close to) real. CD sounding like McDonalds compared to some slow food decent quality (not necessary expensive ) restaurant.. It simply lacks certain je ne sais quoi to be believable to me.

I agree synthesizer are used mainly up to 20 kHz and not beyond; they usually explore world below 16 hz.

Violin can also go beyond 20 kHz - rarely, but can.

That's just it: they don't produce much pressure at all, at least not enough to be decipherable from the much louder and actually audible lower frequencies that are blasting our ears at the same time.

As an example for all: here's some spectrographs from one of my hi-res files (original 24/96, down-up-sampled 16/44.1, difference):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwmVtb5IwniEOWdMNDZfVWlGaEE/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwmVtb5IwniEYTZFdUlSTGRac3c/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwmVtb5IwniEMzNzYmNrdXB3OXc/view?usp=sharing

Here's the flac file of the difference:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwmVtb5IwniEd3d3cHpGQ0tYb0E/view?usp=sharing

Note for yourself, avid reader, how high you have to turn up your speakers before you are aware of the high frequency pressure, if you ever actually can detect it at all. Then imagine turning on the actual music part of it with the volume set to that level. I take no responsibility for any machinery or organic matter blowing up*.

*seriously, test at your own risk

very bad idea to try hearing high frequencies by turning up the volume!it's a very good way to get permanent damage while still not hearing much.

 

[RRod]

very bad idea to try hearing high frequencies by turning up the volume!it's a very good way to get permanent damage while still not hearing much.

 
Yes, luckily everything in the file is about -80dBrms or lower. This isn't the keys example, thankfully. Just some actual real music.

 

[limpidglitch]

  Sorry, cymbals never did sound real to me on CD. IIRC, you mentioned that you do not like "pressure" these high overtones produce - but I crave for it. For me, it means it is (close to) real. CD sounding like McDonalds compared to some slow food decent quality (not necessary expensive ) restaurant.. It simply lacks certain je ne sais quoi to be believable to me.
 
I agree synthesizer are used mainly up to 20 kHz and not beyond; they usually explore world below 16 hz.
 
Violin can also go beyond 20 kHz - rarely, but can.

What about the reproduction of such high frequencies. How high does your speakers go?
None of my speakers or headphones go past 20k or so. Electronics and microphones are good to about 40k, I've checked that as well.

 

[Dobrescu George]

very bad idea to try hearing high frequencies by turning up the volume!it's a very good way to get permanent damage while still not hearing much.

+1
 
it is one of the worst things to listen to high freq at high volumes.. it can destroy hearing very very fast, and create a lot of other problems...
 
say, i am on the side that belives that anything above 20khz should not only be considered useless, but also dangerous. Because, if you listen very loud, with some speakers, and say you really have recorded something above 20khz, if that comes out of the speaker with the loud music, it can pretty much destroy your hearing...

 

[analogsurviver]

 
What about the reproduction of such high frequencies. How high does your speakers go?
None of my speakers or headphones go past 20k or so. Electronics and microphones are good to about 40k, I've checked that as well.

Answered that one before: approx 35 kHz
 
http://audio-heritage.jp/TECHNICS/speaker/sb-rx50.html
 
http://kenrockwell.com/audio/stax/sr-lambda-pro.htm#spex
 
There are numerous measurements for Lambda Pro - and Technics just released a speaker based on the above design, which is good to cool 100 kHz at around 1400 EUR a pair. Review with measurements appear in German Stereoplay 02/2015.
 
BTW - I have yet to hear a speaker that sounds closer to Lambda Pro than refurbished/modified/PROPERLY positioned SB-RX 50

 

[bigshot]

Piezoelectric super tweeters are capable of much higher than 20kHz. They're usually rated to 30kHz, but some go even further than that. (not that it really matters above 20kHz)

 

[analogsurviver]

  Piezoelectric super tweeters are capable of much higher than 20kHz. (not that it really matters above 20kHz)

But are notoriously known for peaky and uneven response - and are because of that avoided in recent designs. For the importance of above 20 kHz response in tweeters, please see the link a few posts above - the very fact that tweeters that to 20 kHz measured practically the same and sounded significantly different lead to the development of what is now known as Earthworks microphones that can reach 50 kHz - "flat".
 
One of the most articulate tweeters today are ribbons from RAAL http://www.raalribbon.com/

 

[bigshot]

They are mostly peaky above the range of human hearing. A low pass filter takes care of that neatly.

 

[analogsurviver]

  They are mostly peaky above the range of human hearing. A low pass filter takes care of that neatly.

Trouble is - one does not want to filter the speaker. After going to the trouble of getting the microphone and recorder to work well to 50 - 100 kHz, with amplifiers exceeding this many times - would you throw almost everything away because of a cheap piezo tweeter ?
 
Now RAAL tweeters are anything but cheap ( I do NOT own anything from them - yet ) - but they are worth it. 

 

[limpidglitch]

  But are notoriously known for peaky and uneven response - and are because of that avoided in recent designs. For the importance of above 20 kHz response in tweeters, please see the link a few posts above - the very fact that tweeters that to 20 kHz measured practically the same and sounded significantly different lead to the development of what is now known as Earthworks microphones that can reach 50 kHz - "flat".
 
One of the most articulate tweeters today are ribbons from RAAL http://www.raalribbon.com/

 
I browsed that article, but I failed to see how it explains anything.
It was a lot of 'it seems', 'I think' and 'I believe', and the science he tries to weave into his theories only confirms that anything above about 20k is immaterial.