Pangaea
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I just did the Cardas Rewire and got the upgraded cart. The Fluid Dampner looked interesting.
technics 1200?
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ssportclay
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The tecnoarm should mount and sound fine on your technics 1200 as long as you don't care about using the dust cover. The tail stub on the tecnoarm is so long that it interferes with it. For this reason you might want to consider an Origin Live model or something else with a more conventional,(Rega), tail stub.
| Originally Posted by juzmister /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well a big bump from the depths here...I've been happily using my Techics sl1200 for a few months and think it's time for some upgrades! I'm debating chucking a tecnoarm on there with a new cartridge, but don't know if I can get better value from upgrading the cable on the arm...What is the consensus? |
The tecnoarm should mount and sound fine on your technics 1200 as long as you don't care about using the dust cover. The tail stub on the tecnoarm is so long that it interferes with it. For this reason you might want to consider an Origin Live model or something else with a more conventional,(Rega), tail stub.
searchenabler
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Don't bother with wire upgrade or the dampening padel. Neither thing addresses the problematic resonances of the SL-1200's arm. Just replace the arm with a good RB-300 based arm and your quality will be increased substantially and this resonance problem will be addressed.
-Chris
| Originally Posted by juzmister /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well a big bump from the depths here...I've been happily using my Techics sl1200 for a few months and think it's time for some upgrades! I'm debating chucking a tecnoarm on there with a new cartridge, but don't know if I can get better value from upgrading the cable on the arm...What is the consensus? |
Don't bother with wire upgrade or the dampening padel. Neither thing addresses the problematic resonances of the SL-1200's arm. Just replace the arm with a good RB-300 based arm and your quality will be increased substantially and this resonance problem will be addressed.
-Chris
memepool
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You could just get the hole on the mounting plate further forward to accomodate the Tecnoarm's counterweight stub though. That way it would just mean you'd have to play without the lid on but this is better anyway as the lid is pretty resonant.
http://www.audioorigami.co.uk/ is another option for bespoke Rega arm upgrades. They even do a gold plated one !
| Originally Posted by ssportclay /img/forum/go_quote.gif The tecnoarm should mount and sound fine on your technics 1200 as long as you don't care about using the dust cover. The tail stub on the tecnoarm is so long that it interferes with it. For this reason you might want to consider an Origin Live model or something else with a more conventional,(Rega), tail stub. |
You could just get the hole on the mounting plate further forward to accomodate the Tecnoarm's counterweight stub though. That way it would just mean you'd have to play without the lid on but this is better anyway as the lid is pretty resonant.
http://www.audioorigami.co.uk/ is another option for bespoke Rega arm upgrades. They even do a gold plated one !
ComfyCan
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There are quite a large number of people who disagree with this statement. I personally do not have the level of experience with other equipment necessary to debate the issue (without parroting the opinions of others--a practice that I dislike). For anyone interested in the opinions of others on this topic (beyond this fine forum), there are a number of reviews of the various upgrades offered by KAB on audiogon and vinyl asylum.
However, it is much more difficult to find people who have had experience with both the KAB mods on a 1200 tonearm, and with a replacement Rega arm.
I suspect that at the end of the day, either approach will give you a very fine sounding turntable. I know I'm in love with mine.
| Originally Posted by searchenabler /img/forum/go_quote.gif Don't bother with wire upgrade or the dampening padel. Neither thing addresses the problematic resonances of the SL-1200's arm. |
There are quite a large number of people who disagree with this statement. I personally do not have the level of experience with other equipment necessary to debate the issue (without parroting the opinions of others--a practice that I dislike). For anyone interested in the opinions of others on this topic (beyond this fine forum), there are a number of reviews of the various upgrades offered by KAB on audiogon and vinyl asylum.
However, it is much more difficult to find people who have had experience with both the KAB mods on a 1200 tonearm, and with a replacement Rega arm.
I suspect that at the end of the day, either approach will give you a very fine sounding turntable. I know I'm in love with mine.
ComfyCan
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I researched the heck out of this before I ordered mine. I don't remember seeing anyone who had this mod that did not believe it was worth it. I did a quick listen to one side of an album I play frequently (The Police: Zenyatta Mondatta) before I put fluid in the trough. It sounded quite good. My old turntable was a Marantz 6100 with an AT440mLa, so this was quite an upgrade whether it had a fluid dampner or not. Anyway, after first listening without fluid in the trough, I then added the fluid (just less than 1/2 full) and played the record again. To my ears, their was greater resolution and a larger soundstage. It was quite noticeable. I am no more immune to the placebo effect than the next guy, so this doesn't necessarily prove anything, but I offer it for whatever it's worth.
If you have the $150 it looks like it would be an easy mod to install yourself.
BTW, are you using the KAB/Ortofon ProS 30 or the ProS 40 cart? (I'm using the Pro S 30, which is supposed to be better if you have a lot of used records because it is not quite as revealing of imperfections--just what I was told--never heard the ProS40).
-comfy
| Originally Posted by Pangaea /img/forum/go_quote.gif I just did the Cardas Rewire and got the upgraded cart. The Fluid Dampner looked interesting. |
I researched the heck out of this before I ordered mine. I don't remember seeing anyone who had this mod that did not believe it was worth it. I did a quick listen to one side of an album I play frequently (The Police: Zenyatta Mondatta) before I put fluid in the trough. It sounded quite good. My old turntable was a Marantz 6100 with an AT440mLa, so this was quite an upgrade whether it had a fluid dampner or not. Anyway, after first listening without fluid in the trough, I then added the fluid (just less than 1/2 full) and played the record again. To my ears, their was greater resolution and a larger soundstage. It was quite noticeable. I am no more immune to the placebo effect than the next guy, so this doesn't necessarily prove anything, but I offer it for whatever it's worth.
If you have the $150 it looks like it would be an easy mod to install yourself.
BTW, are you using the KAB/Ortofon ProS 30 or the ProS 40 cart? (I'm using the Pro S 30, which is supposed to be better if you have a lot of used records because it is not quite as revealing of imperfections--just what I was told--never heard the ProS40).
-comfy
Pangaea
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I have the 40, but I tend to agree with your statement (although I have no exp with the 30) the 40 is very revealing. If the record is not cleaned extensively it crackles quite a bit. Beyond that- the sound is terrific.
I got your PM- however I am not sure you want to replicate my procedure. I do not use anti skate, and as far as the level- I just leveled it off and then set it to 1.5.
Perhaps someone with more experience can give advice on their settings, I know I would be interested.
I got your PM- however I am not sure you want to replicate my procedure. I do not use anti skate, and as far as the level- I just leveled it off and then set it to 1.5.
Perhaps someone with more experience can give advice on their settings, I know I would be interested.
ComfyCan
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Thanks--that's what I do also. I'll probably call Kevin one of these days --if he suggests anything different I'll let you know.
| Originally Posted by Pangaea /img/forum/go_quote.gif I got your PM- however I am not sure you want to replicate my procedure. I do not use anti skate, and as far as the level- I just leveled it off and then set it to 1.5. Perhaps someone with more experience can give advice on their settings, I know I would be interested. |
Thanks--that's what I do also. I'll probably call Kevin one of these days --if he suggests anything different I'll let you know.
Pangaea
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Yes def post what you find. I am pretty much a novice with TTs, so I would hate to give you a false sense of security by stating what I have done. However I will say with the above settings the sound has been quite good.
searchenabler
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The paddle and trough can not have any substantial effect on the arm resonances. It is not a device that is installed in an area of the resonant modal primary junctions of the arm tube, nor is the physical impedance likely correct. The paddle is a tracking dampener - not an arm tube resonance dampener. BTW, I have a highly trusted acquaintance with a SL-1200 that has this KAB dampener and has subjected it to DBT testing using recorded samples in both states. Under this blinded condition, no substantial difference was reported. I'm not saying it would not be audible to you or someone else - but even if it was - I wager it would be a subtle difference if you use a cartridge that tracks superbly to begin with and have your system set up ideally. I can see how the dampener would help on really difficult to track records - if the stylus used was less then ideal in this regard.
With the price of that dampener and a re-wire - you have almost paid for a substantially higher grade RB300 from a cheap source(like those re-badged Michelle Rega arms) and an Origin Live adapter plate! It makes no sense to me to invest so much into that Technics arm unless the mod includes radical physical modification of the head shell and arm tube to remove it's inherent resonant problems.
-Chris
| Originally Posted by ComfyCan /img/forum/go_quote.gif There are quite a large number of people who disagree with this statement. I personally do not have the level of experience with other equipment necessary to debate the issue (without parroting the opinions of others--a practice that I dislike). For anyone interested in the opinions of others on this topic (beyond this fine forum), there are a number of reviews of the various upgrades offered by KAB on audiogon and vinyl asylum. However, it is much more difficult to find people who have had experience with both the KAB mods on a 1200 tonearm, and with a replacement Rega arm. I suspect that at the end of the day, either approach will give you a very fine sounding turntable. I know I'm in love with mine. |
The paddle and trough can not have any substantial effect on the arm resonances. It is not a device that is installed in an area of the resonant modal primary junctions of the arm tube, nor is the physical impedance likely correct. The paddle is a tracking dampener - not an arm tube resonance dampener. BTW, I have a highly trusted acquaintance with a SL-1200 that has this KAB dampener and has subjected it to DBT testing using recorded samples in both states. Under this blinded condition, no substantial difference was reported. I'm not saying it would not be audible to you or someone else - but even if it was - I wager it would be a subtle difference if you use a cartridge that tracks superbly to begin with and have your system set up ideally. I can see how the dampener would help on really difficult to track records - if the stylus used was less then ideal in this regard.
With the price of that dampener and a re-wire - you have almost paid for a substantially higher grade RB300 from a cheap source(like those re-badged Michelle Rega arms) and an Origin Live adapter plate! It makes no sense to me to invest so much into that Technics arm unless the mod includes radical physical modification of the head shell and arm tube to remove it's inherent resonant problems.
-Chris
chadbang
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What is the best way to get an rebadged RB300? I wasnt exactly sure from your post of the exact brand. I always wanted to try this arm, I think it's probably a modern and relatively inexpensive classic, but I certainly wouldn't mind finding it even cheaper.
memepool
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This is exactly what it does. The KAB approach is to drop the mass of the arm by removing the headshell altogether and instead using an Ortofon Concorder style DJ cart which they have modded with a superior stylus.
In effect this reduces the mass of the arm into the low mass category and mates it with a high compliance cart so less energy is being dumped into the arm to start with which sidesteps it's poor resonance characteristic. The damping trough further alleviates matters.
So basically KAB are going back to what was considered cutting edge in the late 1970's when low mass and high compliance were all the rage and ignoring any technical advances since then, which kind of makes sense as that's when the design dates from.
But, and it's a big but, they are taking a path which every other turntable manufacturer has considered a dead end since about 1980 which of course brings it's own problems, namely the fact that very few manufacturers still make this style of 'concorde' high compliance cart per se, and those that do, Stanton and Ortofon, do so only for DJ's.
This means in stock form you can only use a crude conical stylus. KAB address this by making their own mods and using the Ortofon OM series of tips which are still in production but who knows for how long.
So for instance if you follow the KAB path you limit yourself to not using Moving Coil carts, which don't come in this configuration, or the majority of modern medium compliance carts either, of which require the use of a headshell and thus reintroduce the problems of resonance, due to weak structural integrity in the stock 1970s designed Technics tonearm.
Fitting a Rega arm on the other hand allows you to use pretty much all modern carts on the market and gives you a fairly ubiquitous platform which is capable of tracking anything from a basic AT to a Koetsu if you wish.
So it all depends on how far you want to take your Technics in the long run. The KAB approach doubtless gives very good results as the fineline Ortofon stylii are excellent but it does limit your choices and tie you to this design which the rest of the industry has left behind 30 years ago. A bit of a historical blind alley in audiophile terms.
With the Rega on the other hand your horizons are much broader as it's the dominant design in the marketplace today and is therefore supported by all cartridge manfacturers.
| Originally Posted by searchenabler /img/forum/go_quote.gif The paddle is a tracking dampener - not an arm tube resonance dampener.......It makes no sense to me to invest so much into that Technics arm unless the mod includes radical physical modification of the head shell and arm tube to remove it's inherent resonant problems. |
This is exactly what it does. The KAB approach is to drop the mass of the arm by removing the headshell altogether and instead using an Ortofon Concorder style DJ cart which they have modded with a superior stylus.
In effect this reduces the mass of the arm into the low mass category and mates it with a high compliance cart so less energy is being dumped into the arm to start with which sidesteps it's poor resonance characteristic. The damping trough further alleviates matters.
So basically KAB are going back to what was considered cutting edge in the late 1970's when low mass and high compliance were all the rage and ignoring any technical advances since then, which kind of makes sense as that's when the design dates from.
But, and it's a big but, they are taking a path which every other turntable manufacturer has considered a dead end since about 1980 which of course brings it's own problems, namely the fact that very few manufacturers still make this style of 'concorde' high compliance cart per se, and those that do, Stanton and Ortofon, do so only for DJ's.
This means in stock form you can only use a crude conical stylus. KAB address this by making their own mods and using the Ortofon OM series of tips which are still in production but who knows for how long.
So for instance if you follow the KAB path you limit yourself to not using Moving Coil carts, which don't come in this configuration, or the majority of modern medium compliance carts either, of which require the use of a headshell and thus reintroduce the problems of resonance, due to weak structural integrity in the stock 1970s designed Technics tonearm.
Fitting a Rega arm on the other hand allows you to use pretty much all modern carts on the market and gives you a fairly ubiquitous platform which is capable of tracking anything from a basic AT to a Koetsu if you wish.
So it all depends on how far you want to take your Technics in the long run. The KAB approach doubtless gives very good results as the fineline Ortofon stylii are excellent but it does limit your choices and tie you to this design which the rest of the industry has left behind 30 years ago. A bit of a historical blind alley in audiophile terms.
With the Rega on the other hand your horizons are much broader as it's the dominant design in the marketplace today and is therefore supported by all cartridge manfacturers.
searchenabler
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I'de like to see a measurement demonstrating this by any significant amount(I'll consider 6dB drop overall average to be significant).
I have extensive experience in dealing with resonance in a different field, but it still relates to this, and I can not determine how this trough system can any substantial effect on the arm tube resonances. Not even KAB claims it has effect on arm tube resonance, but specifies it to effect tracking dampening issues. Perhaps the use of the odd choice of cartridge type(I could not imagine being forced to use such a limited choice of cartridge) and removal of head shell you specify has some effects here, but the dampening trough system?
-Chris
| Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif The damping trough further alleviates matters. |
I'de like to see a measurement demonstrating this by any significant amount(I'll consider 6dB drop overall average to be significant).
I have extensive experience in dealing with resonance in a different field, but it still relates to this, and I can not determine how this trough system can any substantial effect on the arm tube resonances. Not even KAB claims it has effect on arm tube resonance, but specifies it to effect tracking dampening issues. Perhaps the use of the odd choice of cartridge type(I could not imagine being forced to use such a limited choice of cartridge) and removal of head shell you specify has some effects here, but the dampening trough system?
-Chris
searchenabler
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Here is one of the rebadged OEM units on eBay: REGA RB300 CLASSIC TONEARM - BRAND NEW - eBay (item 330279202033 end time Nov-14-08 19:35:23 PST)
-Chris
| Originally Posted by chadbang /img/forum/go_quote.gif What is the best way to get an rebadged RB300? I wasnt exactly sure from your post of the exact brand. I always wanted to try this arm, I think it's probably a modern and relatively inexpensive classic, but I certainly wouldn't mind finding it even cheaper. |
Here is one of the rebadged OEM units on eBay: REGA RB300 CLASSIC TONEARM - BRAND NEW - eBay (item 330279202033 end time Nov-14-08 19:35:23 PST)
-Chris
memepool
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I'll have a look for some measurements as to the mass of the Technics arm with the headshell removed but as you realise it's the relationship between springiness in the suspenion of these type of high compliance moving magnet carts and the unwanted effects this can have on a tonearm which wasn't orginally designed with ultra low mass in mind which increases the need for the silicon damper.
Pretty good explanation of these issues here
Tonearm/Cartridge Capability
| Originally Posted by searchenabler /img/forum/go_quote.gif Perhaps the use of the odd choice of cartridge type....and removal of head shell you specify has some effects here, but the dampening trough system? |
I'll have a look for some measurements as to the mass of the Technics arm with the headshell removed but as you realise it's the relationship between springiness in the suspenion of these type of high compliance moving magnet carts and the unwanted effects this can have on a tonearm which wasn't orginally designed with ultra low mass in mind which increases the need for the silicon damper.
Pretty good explanation of these issues here
Tonearm/Cartridge Capability
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