n4k33n
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I was thinking about a 1200 or a 1210 myself. How are the MK5's different than the MKII? I hear the MKII getting suggested all the time, is it better somehow?
technics 1200?
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ssportclay
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Go to KABUSA.He explains the differences fairly clearly there.The MK5 has added or improved features that a DJ might want but for most people the MK2 is the best value if all you want to do is spin vinyl in a home system.
| Originally Posted by n4k33n /img/forum/go_quote.gif I was thinking about a 1200 or a 1210 myself. How are the MK5's different than the MKII? I hear the MKII getting suggested all the time, is it better somehow? |
Go to KABUSA.He explains the differences fairly clearly there.The MK5 has added or improved features that a DJ might want but for most people the MK2 is the best value if all you want to do is spin vinyl in a home system.
muckshot
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Seeing as the 1200 is a direct drive TT, does that mean that there will be more 'rumble' coming through than a cheaper belt-drive unit ? Does it make sense to buy a 1200 for a non-DJ?
I made the stupid mistake of buying a cheap direct drive technics unit to replace a comparable belt driven model and have been regretting it ever since.
I made the stupid mistake of buying a cheap direct drive technics unit to replace a comparable belt driven model and have been regretting it ever since.
memepool
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It's not that simple. In most cases "rumble" on a direct drive is actually acoustic feedback rather than motor noise. This is due to the fact that most of the cheaper direct drives sold have poorly designed plastic plinths which resonate audibly so even though the motor itself may measure very well the deck as a whole won't perform so well. Cheap belt drives suffer from the same problems until you get upto Rega standards where it's much less apparent but still a potential issue.
The answer is to place the deck either on it's own wall shelf or if you are lucky enough to have a concrete or stone floor then on a heavy piece of furniture or spiked hi-fi rack.
The Technics 1200 is actually a very well built deck at the price level, better constructed than the Rega / Pro-Ject competition. If acoustic feedback is an issue then you probably don't have it set up to perform at it's full potential.
| Originally Posted by muckshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif Seeing as the 1200 is a direct drive TT, does that mean that there will be more 'rumble' coming through than a cheaper belt-drive unit ? Does it make sense to buy a 1200 for a non-DJ? I made the stupid mistake of buying a cheap direct drive technics unit to replace a comparable belt driven model and have been regretting it ever since. |
It's not that simple. In most cases "rumble" on a direct drive is actually acoustic feedback rather than motor noise. This is due to the fact that most of the cheaper direct drives sold have poorly designed plastic plinths which resonate audibly so even though the motor itself may measure very well the deck as a whole won't perform so well. Cheap belt drives suffer from the same problems until you get upto Rega standards where it's much less apparent but still a potential issue.
The answer is to place the deck either on it's own wall shelf or if you are lucky enough to have a concrete or stone floor then on a heavy piece of furniture or spiked hi-fi rack.
The Technics 1200 is actually a very well built deck at the price level, better constructed than the Rega / Pro-Ject competition. If acoustic feedback is an issue then you probably don't have it set up to perform at it's full potential.
muckshot
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Sorry to be misleading, I don't own a 1200, mine is a SL-D35 DD unit but I'm looking to get a new TT as this one is is at the end of its life. Thanks for the great answer though, I've had my eye on a 1200 mainly due to the fact that it's such a charming unit to operate, although I'd been weary up until now as I thought it was really meant specifically for DJs rather than the typical home user. So essentially you're saying that set up properly as you described, a 1200 should not be more "audible" (in terms of audible feedback et all) than a comparably priced belt-driven unit?
Btw, does the 1200 need to be grounded?
| Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's not that simple. In most cases "rumble" on a direct drive is actually acoustic feedback rather than motor noise. This is due to the fact that most of the cheaper direct drives sold have poorly designed plastic plinths which resonate audibly so even though the motor itself may measure very well the deck as a whole won't perform so well. Cheap belt drives suffer from the same problems until you get upto Rega standards where it's much less apparent but still a potential issue. The answer is to place the deck either on it's own wall shelf or if you are lucky enough to have a concrete or stone floor then on a heavy piece of furniture or spiked hi-fi rack. The Technics 1200 is actually a very well built deck at the price level, better constructed than the Rega / Pro-Ject competition. If acoustic feedback is an issue then you probably don't have it set up to perform at it's full potential. |
Sorry to be misleading, I don't own a 1200, mine is a SL-D35 DD unit but I'm looking to get a new TT as this one is is at the end of its life. Thanks for the great answer though, I've had my eye on a 1200 mainly due to the fact that it's such a charming unit to operate, although I'd been weary up until now as I thought it was really meant specifically for DJs rather than the typical home user. So essentially you're saying that set up properly as you described, a 1200 should not be more "audible" (in terms of audible feedback et all) than a comparably priced belt-driven unit?
Btw, does the 1200 need to be grounded?
memepool
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yes all turntables need to be grounded and should have a ground wire coming out with the phono leads.
Your present Technics should be good enough as a starter deck, perhaps it needs servicing?
If you want to get a new one the 1200 is certainly much better and was never orginally designed for DJ scratch mixing (it more or less invented this market), but was intended as mid range Hi-Fi deck build to bombproof 1970s standards.
Check out the upgrades mentioned above especially the Origin Live tonearm modification. This lifts it into a wholey different league and is the main reason for renewed interest from audiophiles. See here Technics SL-1200 MkII turntable - [English]
If you are not interested in upgrading it though then you may be better of with a similarly priced belt drive like a Rega as these are just plug and play although as I mentioned in this pricerange what you mount the deck on will have a huge influence on it's sound as they are all a bit lightweight.
| Originally Posted by muckshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif Btw, does the 1200 need to be grounded? |
yes all turntables need to be grounded and should have a ground wire coming out with the phono leads.
Your present Technics should be good enough as a starter deck, perhaps it needs servicing?
If you want to get a new one the 1200 is certainly much better and was never orginally designed for DJ scratch mixing (it more or less invented this market), but was intended as mid range Hi-Fi deck build to bombproof 1970s standards.
Check out the upgrades mentioned above especially the Origin Live tonearm modification. This lifts it into a wholey different league and is the main reason for renewed interest from audiophiles. See here Technics SL-1200 MkII turntable - [English]
If you are not interested in upgrading it though then you may be better of with a similarly priced belt drive like a Rega as these are just plug and play although as I mentioned in this pricerange what you mount the deck on will have a huge influence on it's sound as they are all a bit lightweight.
What arm lengths do the custom armboards from Soundsupports and Origin support? If they can support 9 and 10.5" would any of you experienced upgraders have a preference? I am looking at this one.
muckshot
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OK, wasn't clear on that--- strangely enough my phono pre-amp (NAD PP1) doesn't have a ground so I figured maybe I was missing something. The entry level Creek does, and I'm pretty certain the PP2 also has one, so not sure what's going on there...
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Very likely, but as luck would have it, my needle is also in desperate need of replacement and the PP1 just died (my shoddy DIY repair job was a miserable failure, ha) so perhaps I'll just update the whole rig and be done with it. Messed around with a 1200 at a local record shop today and it really is a fantastic piece of hardware.
Thanks again for the link and your input, I'm thinking that putting an investment down on the gear might spur me into action on the vinyl front--- best thing is that seeing as my old TT is still more or less functional, I can use it to play all the dirt cheap used vinyl that is in less than "optimal" condition without worrying that it will mean the end of days for my player. That's where the fun starts in my mind
| Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif yes all turntables need to be grounded and should have a ground wire coming out with the phono leads. |
OK, wasn't clear on that--- strangely enough my phono pre-amp (NAD PP1) doesn't have a ground so I figured maybe I was missing something. The entry level Creek does, and I'm pretty certain the PP2 also has one, so not sure what's going on there...
Quote:
| Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your present Technics should be good enough as a starter deck, perhaps it needs servicing? |
Very likely, but as luck would have it, my needle is also in desperate need of replacement and the PP1 just died (my shoddy DIY repair job was a miserable failure, ha) so perhaps I'll just update the whole rig and be done with it. Messed around with a 1200 at a local record shop today and it really is a fantastic piece of hardware.
Thanks again for the link and your input, I'm thinking that putting an investment down on the gear might spur me into action on the vinyl front--- best thing is that seeing as my old TT is still more or less functional, I can use it to play all the dirt cheap used vinyl that is in less than "optimal" condition without worrying that it will mean the end of days for my player. That's where the fun starts in my mind
memepool
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I think the ground on the PP1 may be via one of the screws on the outer casing of the unit if you look closely for a little earth symbol. Attaching it to any of the screws on the casing of your main amp for instance should also work fine.Certainly if your deck isn't properly ground it would be very noisy.
Phono stages are very simple circuits so I'm sure you could find somebody here to help you fix it. The Nad is a good budget piece of kit and certainly worth it . You could probably send it back to NAD for repair as well. You won't really get that much better performance than the PP1 from the PP2 or Cambridge Audio or any other stages at this price.
When you are buying a new record playing system it's certainly worth spending the lion's share of you budget on the deck itself for the most bang for buck.
If your current Technics is working ok and the noise problem is just the phonostage then I'd be tempted to fix this and buy a nicer cart like one of the Denon HOMC ones ( DL-110/160) before shelling out loads on a whole new deck. If you are still not liking the sound after that then the Denon carts will be just as good a match on the SL1200.
Quote:
I have heard good and interesting things about Jelco arms which are still made to this day in Japan but are quite traditional looking. Headfier Mattigol has one so you could PM him for more info.
It looks better made than the stock Technics arm although the KABUSA damper might level the playing field a bit. Certainly the longer tube is a desireable feature but does make mounting a bit more difficult and may not fit easily with the lid on the 1200. Also the mass is high at 18g so you would really need to go for an MC cart. One of the Denon's would be ideal.
Origin Live only offer a Rega mounting pattern as that's what OL arms use. soundsupports offer both an SME and Rega pre-cut but I have bought blank plates in the past from them, so you should have no problems if you email them.
If you can obtain the mounting pattern for the Jelco and ask nicely, they will perhaps even cut it for you but they use a fairly lightweight aluminium so drilling it with a normal Black & Decker yourself is no problem.
Needle Doctor also have a good range of tonearms including the basic Origin Live version of the Rega RB250 for under 300USD and some nice looking Italian unipivots from Bluenote around the 8-900 mark. The Roksan Nima is another well regarded unipivot in this pricerange.
My personal choice though would be the Roksan Tabriz which I think is a little livelier sounding to the Rega bringing a bit more to the music. Roksan arms use the Rega mounting pattern so no issues with cutting a mounting plate either.
| Originally Posted by muckshot OK, wasn't clear on that--- strangely enough my phono pre-amp (NAD PP1) doesn't have a ground so I figured maybe I was missing something. The entry level Creek does, and I'm pretty certain the PP2 also has one, so not sure what's going on there... |
I think the ground on the PP1 may be via one of the screws on the outer casing of the unit if you look closely for a little earth symbol. Attaching it to any of the screws on the casing of your main amp for instance should also work fine.Certainly if your deck isn't properly ground it would be very noisy.
Phono stages are very simple circuits so I'm sure you could find somebody here to help you fix it. The Nad is a good budget piece of kit and certainly worth it . You could probably send it back to NAD for repair as well. You won't really get that much better performance than the PP1 from the PP2 or Cambridge Audio or any other stages at this price.
When you are buying a new record playing system it's certainly worth spending the lion's share of you budget on the deck itself for the most bang for buck.
If your current Technics is working ok and the noise problem is just the phonostage then I'd be tempted to fix this and buy a nicer cart like one of the Denon HOMC ones ( DL-110/160) before shelling out loads on a whole new deck. If you are still not liking the sound after that then the Denon carts will be just as good a match on the SL1200.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by CanMad /img/forum/go_quote.gif What arm lengths do the custom armboards from Soundsupports and Origin support? If they can support 9 and 10.5" would any of you experienced upgraders have a preference? I am looking at this one. |
I have heard good and interesting things about Jelco arms which are still made to this day in Japan but are quite traditional looking. Headfier Mattigol has one so you could PM him for more info.
It looks better made than the stock Technics arm although the KABUSA damper might level the playing field a bit. Certainly the longer tube is a desireable feature but does make mounting a bit more difficult and may not fit easily with the lid on the 1200. Also the mass is high at 18g so you would really need to go for an MC cart. One of the Denon's would be ideal.
Origin Live only offer a Rega mounting pattern as that's what OL arms use. soundsupports offer both an SME and Rega pre-cut but I have bought blank plates in the past from them, so you should have no problems if you email them.
If you can obtain the mounting pattern for the Jelco and ask nicely, they will perhaps even cut it for you but they use a fairly lightweight aluminium so drilling it with a normal Black & Decker yourself is no problem.
Needle Doctor also have a good range of tonearms including the basic Origin Live version of the Rega RB250 for under 300USD and some nice looking Italian unipivots from Bluenote around the 8-900 mark. The Roksan Nima is another well regarded unipivot in this pricerange.
My personal choice though would be the Roksan Tabriz which I think is a little livelier sounding to the Rega bringing a bit more to the music. Roksan arms use the Rega mounting pattern so no issues with cutting a mounting plate either.
Thanks Memepool, I assumed "SME type connector" meant that it would mount on the soundsupports SME armboard? This arm is custom made by Jelco to their specs, it is supposed to be very good, and the one they recommend for their top tables and carts.
So a nine inch arm is a safer bet for the technics tables?
Thanks for your help.
Cheers
So a nine inch arm is a safer bet for the technics tables?
Thanks for your help.
Cheers
memepool
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Ah ok I read that as SME type connector between the headshell and arm, as it's removable and they mention exotic materials Yamamoto headshells further down, which Japanese MC fans are really into.
But even if the Jelco has an SME pattern base which I am not sure of, it probably wouldn't fit the soundsupports one as that is for standard 9" arms so the geometry would be wrong. SME make arms with different mounting distances though so it's possible Soundsupports already cater for this, you'll need to get hold of a mounting template for the Jeclo and email it to them to be sure.
A 10.5" arm should fit the Technics SL1200 fine, it just means the mounting hole would have to be 1.5" futher away than with a 9" arm. The only other issue as I mentioned is that the lid may not close during play with the arm mounted further back.
But of course you could just ditch the Technics lid and get a bigger one made and there is a guy on the TTVJ forum offering to make bespoke acrylic lids.
| Originally Posted by CanMad /img/forum/go_quote.gif "SME type connector" meant that it would mount on the soundsupports SME armboard? |
Ah ok I read that as SME type connector between the headshell and arm, as it's removable and they mention exotic materials Yamamoto headshells further down, which Japanese MC fans are really into.
But even if the Jelco has an SME pattern base which I am not sure of, it probably wouldn't fit the soundsupports one as that is for standard 9" arms so the geometry would be wrong. SME make arms with different mounting distances though so it's possible Soundsupports already cater for this, you'll need to get hold of a mounting template for the Jeclo and email it to them to be sure.
A 10.5" arm should fit the Technics SL1200 fine, it just means the mounting hole would have to be 1.5" futher away than with a 9" arm. The only other issue as I mentioned is that the lid may not close during play with the arm mounted further back.
But of course you could just ditch the Technics lid and get a bigger one made and there is a guy on the TTVJ forum offering to make bespoke acrylic lids.
juzmister
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Hey, i'm looking at one of these as well!! I'm totally fed up with all belt drive tables...I've heard that the Technics pairs really well with the Denon 103 (have seen some cool mods on the cart as well)...I also have a Wright Sound phono stage with the step-up, do you guys think it would work well?
Cheers.
Cheers.
memepool
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I think you'll need to look at upgrading the tonearm on the SL1200 to get near your present Oracle/Syrinx set up. Check out the Origin Live upgraded Rega tonarms The best dj tonearms for dj decks - technics 1200 deck or else the Michell Tecnoarm J.A.Michell Engineering Tonearms: TecnoArm, TecnoWeight
| Originally Posted by juzmister /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm totally fed up with all belt drive tables...I've heard that the Technics pairs really well with the Denon 103 (have seen some cool mods on the cart as well)...I also have a Wright Sound phono stage with the step-up, do you guys think it would work well? |
I think you'll need to look at upgrading the tonearm on the SL1200 to get near your present Oracle/Syrinx set up. Check out the Origin Live upgraded Rega tonarms The best dj tonearms for dj decks - technics 1200 deck or else the Michell Tecnoarm J.A.Michell Engineering Tonearms: TecnoArm, TecnoWeight
double LL
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Hello Memepool,I have slowed down on my replys a bit but this ongoing hoax about direct drives having more noise than belt drives is just so damn ridiculous.You explain it very accuratley about where the real noise is but the hoax lives on.I have a Marantz direct drive TT330,which I have mentioned on another thread,that is a full auto TT and nothing near a audiophile TT.It plays quietly with no apparent added noise from the motor.I checked out the DUAL website and the rumble specs of their direct drive models are just as low or lower than their idler pulley drives and their belt drives.
| Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's not that simple. In most cases "rumble" on a direct drive is actually acoustic feedback rather than motor noise. This is due to the fact that most of the cheaper direct drives sold have poorly designed plastic plinths which resonate audibly so even though the motor itself may measure very well the deck as a whole won't perform so well. Cheap belt drives suffer from the same problems until you get upto Rega standards where it's much less apparent but still a potential issue. The answer is to place the deck either on it's own wall shelf or if you are lucky enough to have a concrete or stone floor then on a heavy piece of furniture or spiked hi-fi rack. The Technics 1200 is actually a very well built deck at the price level, better constructed than the Rega / Pro-Ject competition. If acoustic feedback is an issue then you probably don't have it set up to perform at it's full potential. |
Hello Memepool,I have slowed down on my replys a bit but this ongoing hoax about direct drives having more noise than belt drives is just so damn ridiculous.You explain it very accuratley about where the real noise is but the hoax lives on.I have a Marantz direct drive TT330,which I have mentioned on another thread,that is a full auto TT and nothing near a audiophile TT.It plays quietly with no apparent added noise from the motor.I checked out the DUAL website and the rumble specs of their direct drive models are just as low or lower than their idler pulley drives and their belt drives.
SK138
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I am extremely happy with Denon DL160 cart. Now..am looking towards other, more expensive, HOMC carts; Dynavector or Benz Micro
Quote:
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| Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...buy a nicer cart like one of the Denon HOMC ones ( DL-110/160) before shelling out loads on a whole new deck.... |
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