[CJG888]

With a baby on the way, it looks like the days of listening to classical music via loudspeakers at near-concert hall levels are over (at least for a few years!). Those (few) occasions when I will be able to listen will, inevitably, be late at night, and the use of headphones will be mandatory.
 
After rejecting cans for many years, I have recently re-discovered the joys of headphone listening (following a move to China), and have assembled the following desktop system:
 
QLS QA350 Mod. V2 / Little Dot DAC_1 / Little Dot Mk. III (NOS CV4010 driver tubes) / HD600
 
Whilst being far from what I would call a high-end setup, it is capable of providing a more than enjoyable listening experience. Additionally, I sometimes use a Stax Lambda Basic system with my Opera Consonance Reference 2.3 CD player in the living room. The Opera CD 2.3 is a Chinese market-only upsampling design with a tube output stage (single ended), and a balance solid-state alternative.
 
Back in Europe, my system consists of SME 10A / Ortofon Jubilee / Musical Fidelity X-LP2 monoblock phono stage (main source) and Meridian 506.24 / Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista DAC into Krell KAV-500i and Martin-Logan Vantages.
 
On return from China, the new high-end headphone setup will be integrated into this system (running off the "tape out" of the Krell). For the next two years, the source will be the Opera Consonance (either SE or balanced output).
 
As headphones are likely to become my principal transducers in the next years, I would like to build a modest high-end setup, to cost around USD 3,000 (preferably including any import duties to China!). As I am currently resident in Shanghai, ideally I would like to take advantage of the ready supply of high-end gear from brands unknown in the West, often offered at very attractive prices. The cans themselves will be imported, as the Chinese seem much better at building headphone amps than the phones themselves!
 
My current listening experiences (via the Opera CD 2.3):
 
Stax Lambda Basic: good articulation and transparency, excellent midrange, large soundstage, good imaging, BUT rolled off treble, muddy bass, sound "slow" for electrostatics (at least when compared with the ML Vantages!)
 
LD Mk. III / HD600: better dynamics, good midrange, fair soundstage, very neutral BUT some loss of transparency, somewhat grainy treble, a little "dark" sounding. Better with jazz and chamber than full-scale orchestral. Not resolving enough, like looking through a slightly dirty lens.
 
Listening tastes are primarily orchestral (Shostakovich, Schnittke, Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Mahler), Opera (mostly Wagner!), and 50s and 60s acoustic Jazz (Blue Note / Impulse). Scale, soundstage and transparency are the key criteria.
 
Consequently, the following options spring to mind:
 
(i) Stick with electrostatics:
 
Stax Lambda SR-507 with Woo Audio GES (or another amp - anything interesting here in China?) And yes, I know that the Woo, despite its name, will have to be imported from the States

. Is the Lambda still competitive with top-flight dynamics like the HD800 these days? Which of the (expensive!) GES upgrades are worth the money?
 
 
(ii) Go dynamic (single ended):
 
HD800 (that bit is easy - clearly the best dynamic I have heard, and built like an Audi), with, perhaps, a WA2 or WA6SE (which would suit better?), or something local, e.g. a Darkvoice 337SE (possibly with some nice NOS tubes).
 
Does the HD800, in your opinion, need a cable upgrade (e.g. Cardas)?
 
 
(iii) Go dynamic (balanced):
 
HD800 / Cardas balanced cable / Audio-GD Phoenix or Little Dot Mk. VI or VIII SE (which LD is better for the HD800?)
 
Here in Shanghai, I have a balanced source. In Europe, all my sources are single-ended. Is there any benefit in using a balanced HP amp and cans on the end of a single-ended source?
 
 
(iv) Be unconventional:
 
Second-hand AKG K1000 (how easy are they to find, and what should I pay), hooked up to a good Chinese tube-powered speaker amp (I presume 8-10WPC should be adequate). For now, I could use the speaker outputs of my MF A1000, or would this be overkill, like putting a V8 in a Polo.....
 
I presume attaching a K1000 to the speaker outputs of the Krell would not be a very good idea..... Plus, it could possibly sound a wee bit bright!
 
If a new amp is required, I would probably look for a good SET design (possibly 300B or 2A3). Would these sound "tight" enough? Would a PP 5881 or EL34 be more suitable? SINOVT / Raphaelite seem to have some interesting (and properly-built) products.
 
 
Thank you very much in advance for any ideas or advice.
 
 

 

[Uncle Erik]

First, why not play some classical and jazz for the baby? Start 'em young.

My favorite for classical and jazz is the HD-800. I don't think you can go wrong with them. As for an amp, consider the new Eddie Curren Super 7. One with a HD-800 should get you in right around $3,000. I haven't heard the Super 7 yet, but own two of Craig's amps - I wouldn't buy another brand save for the amps I build for myself.

The K-1000 is a serious contender, too. I love mine to pieces and it's wonderful. I prefer to run it from a 2A3 amp; there's terrific synergy. Though ou could run it off the Krell - it was designed for speaker amps. My concern would be having one around a child. They're a bit on the delicate side and spare parts are no longer available. The HD-800 should be in production for years, so it can be repaired if knocked off a table.

And since you're getting into Head-Fi, you might want to have a few pairs around. :evil: Some great inexpensive headphones are the AKG K-501 and K-240DF and the Beyerdynamic DT48. I love all three with classical and jazz. The DT48 is a bit polarizing, but I think it really nails vocals, piano and small chamber pieces. Used ones turn up for $75-$100; I think it's worth hearing one. Don't expect it to hit pipe organ pedal tones, but you might be floored with some Oscar Peterson.

 

[CJG888]

Thank you - looks like a very interesting option.
 
I guess I am inclined to go for the HD800s, anyway

. From what I have read on other threads, the stock cable is of good quality, and won't need changing.
 
Just as a possible cost-saving measure, I wonder if the Opera Consonance Cyber 20 would be an option (I would, of course, replace all the valves with NOS Mullards from back home in England! Good vintage EL84s are, thankfully, cheap). I have always been a fan of the "EL84 sound" (valve-like transparency, but with speed and "punch"), Would it be a good match for the HD800s?
 
Certainly, the Cyber 20 is one of the few Chinese HP amps with output transformers, and I have read that the HD800 doesn't like OTLs. Is this true, or just paranoia? Plus I have a good source for Opera Consonance gear here in Shanghai.
 
As for going balanced, I don't see the point if my analog rig back in Germany is resolutely single ended!

 

[CJG888]

BTW, does this look like a good match for K1000s (if I were to go that route), or do they need a bit more power?
 
http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=116
 
 

 

[NamelessPFG]

I'd think that if you really like the electrostatic sound, then the only sensible upgrade from Stax would be...better Stax. There's just something endearing about their atmospheric, detailed presentation that I can't see any dynamic headphone offering, though I'm just going by even older SR-Lambdas with rebuilt drivers here and absolutely no experience with dynamic flagships like HD 800s. (Sorry, don't have the wallet to try their even higher-end offerings...yet.)
 
The HD 800 is quite renowned for its soundstage, though. I'm not sure how it manages to top even Stax's flagships there in the eyes of some reviewers, but it may be worth considering for that alone. Classical music loves a great soundstage.

 

[Uncle Erik]

The HD-800 does well with the Eddie Current Zana Deux, which is an OTL, but hardly a typical one. That combo has been my listening rig for a couple of years. The Zana is outside your budget at $2,200, but I do recommend it highly and it can be ordered in 220V. It makes a fine preamp, too, so maybe if you sold your preamp and used a Zana you could swing it.

As for output transformers, I'm a bit picky. A good pair will run $200 and over. Which reminds me, Pete Millet designed an amp speciically for the K-1000. You can find the plans at pmillett.com. If you're not interested in DIY, you can always find a local guitar amp builder or RSGB member to do a custom build. It uses nice Sowter output transformers (sowter.co.uk) as well. Yet another unbuilt project I have in parts. But once the shop comes together, I'll have it together quickly.

But be careful with output transformers when it comes to high-end headphones. Good ones are not inexpensive and you do not want the cheap ones. Brands I like are Electra-Print, Sowter and Lundahl. There are a few other good brands, but these are ones I'm familiar with. If you can find someone who can solder or are willing to take it up, you can have a great amp at a good price.

 

[brat]

Go with some good dynamics (HD-800, DT-880 600 ohm, k701, к1000, Т1).
Electrostats have 2 major flaws which are very important to classical music: they can't achieve the dynamic range of the good dynamics and they have congested headstage.
I appreciate the delicacy, the speed and the accuracy of my omegas but even the neglected k701 sounds better with classical.

 

[CJG888]

Looks like the HD800s it is, then.
 
Unfortunately, it appears I have rather less financial leeway than originally anticipated

, and I resent the import duty charged here in China - so I will probalbly do the following:
 
- Stick with the HD600s for now, possibly treating them to a Cardas recable

,
 
- Get a good Chinese HP amp that, whilst not state of the art, will do the HD800s justice when I get them (it seems there is nothing here to compare with Eddie Current or Woo, and import duty to Germany is much less than to China) - either Opera Consonance Cyber 20 or Matrix M-Stage (any views on these?),
 
- Pick up a pair of HD800s as funds allow (and when I'm on business in Germany),
 
- On return to Europe in 2014, order either a Woo WA6SE or an Eddie Current Zana Deux (preferably the latter!). I fear the Super 7 will be too "warm" for me,,,,
 
Does this sound sensible?
 
 
 

 

[Leonardo Drummond]

 
My 2 cents...
 
I spent some time (albeit little) with the HD800 and currently own a K1000.
 
It's quite difficult to chose between one over the other, because they achieve very different things, and to me it's a matter of taste. 
 
The K1000, soundstage-wise, sounds like a pair of near-field monitors strapped to your head, it's a similar kind of stage, only a bit smaller and more intimate. It's sounds more like a pair of speakers than the HD800s, which sound kind of as if you were in the middle of the room with the musicians surrounding you. I don't think one is better than the other, it's just about preference. Also, while the K1000s seem to be quite mid-centric, the Sennheisers are more well balanced but somewhat happy at the top end.
 
However, I think the AKGs are MUCH harder to pair with an amplifier than the Senns. The thing is that they have some flaws that have to be addressed with some proper amplification that works well with those specific flaws. It's not very difficult to make them sound like crap, tonally speaking. The mids can be way overblown and they can sound hard, rough and, in the treble, very metallic. More than with anything else I've ever heard, it's all about synergy. I don't have that sort of experience with the HD800, but judging by what I read, it's not that hard to make them sound good.
 
I think that if you have the time, money and effort necessary to go looking for something that pairs well with the AKGs, you will be rewarded, it's unlike anything else out there and gives you some of the best aspects of both worlds, headphones and speakers. It's a rather demanding journey though, so if you don't have what it takes, just go for the HD800, which will surely be amazing as well – just different, and more like other headphones.

 

[gurus]

I used a Krell 300i to drive when I had the K1000 and that to me was the best sound I got out of them. Better than the SRPP tube amp designed specially for them. Closest experience to regular speakers in a HP. So your Krell would be a great choice.

 

[CJG888]

I have taken the plunge, and ordered a Cyber 20 (should get here tomorrow), new for RMB2800. I will re-tube this with NOS valves (Mullard ECC82 and a matched pair of Russian Philips EL84). This will first be used with the HD600s (currently recabled with a decent quality Chinese cable: ZY 005), later I will upgrade to the HD800s, when funds allow.
 
I will wait with the big amp (Woo or Eddie Current), until I am back in Europe, and the import duty is more reasonable.
 
Thanks for all the advice.
 
Re. DT-48s, I am currently looking at a pair of 200 Ohm models for EUR100 shipped to the UK (I will pick them up when I come over next). They lok quite old, and have separate cables coming from each driver.
 
- Is the 200 Ohm version the one to go for?
- How old are they likely to be? I have noticed that they have been fitted with a Neutrik mini-jack, so they probably originally came with a DIN plug. The lead is coiled. Is it likely that they are in good condition, or will they need to be refurbished (is it like picking up an old valve amp?). Cosmetics are so-so (look OK, but the badge with the logo is missing on at least one side (see pictures).
 

 
- Should they really be recabled? If so, how do I do this?
 
I presume EUR 100 is a fair price, including shipping.....

 

[Shahrose]

I love both of the dynamics you've mentioned CJG888, but of the two, slightly prefer the HD800 for its superior technical ability (more detailed, nuanced, layered). BTW, both are excellent choices for comfort as I've found nothing better than these two.
 
Their soundstage is very different so it's difficult to compare. The HD800s are wider, more surrounding and let you hear deeper into the recording. The K1000 are more speaker-like because of their completely open nature and present a more pushed back frontal soundstage. Their presentation is more like an actual live performance, but isn't as layered or grand as the HD800 can be. However, both are very enjoyable and I frequently switch between the two (these two are my favourite cans).
 
Surprisingly, I think the K1000 (bass heavy version) have a punchier and more prominent bass response, but one that only extends to around 30Hz (at which point it's noticeably rolled off). The HD800s go as low as anyone can hear, but their whole lower range is less prominent, as they err towards the lean/cool side of the spectrum. The AKGs also have a different treble which is somewhat hotter in the upper regions while the Senns can get a bit zealous around the 6-8KHz mark (mid-treble). In their stock forms, the AKGs may have a more natural tone.
 
In regards to amping, the HD800 require much less power, but are pickier in terms of voicing. Both headphones benefit from high-end ancillaries, but the HD800 moreso IME.
 
You asked about K1000 pricing, and I urge others to chime in, but I've seen the K1000s go anywhere from $1000-1400. Incidentally, the HD800s have a similar price range on the used market.

 

[Audiogalore]

I have both the K1000 and the HD800;  if you like Jazz and classical and like the speaker sound it is no brainer. The K1000 paired with a great source and a class "A" amp like a Pass Lab First Watt or a Woo 5 will be the ultimate sound.
 
Enjoy music!

 

[Maxvla]

My vote for spacious, accurate soundstage, balanced spectrum, and revealing, but not harsh in any way - treble, is a decent source, low or no noise headphone amp (such as the Woo Audio WA6) and Ultimate Ears Reference Monitor. This combo will set you back about $1800 + source (in my case a Bifrost for $350). You can find better, but it's going to cost you a very large amount more, imo.

The bonus to this is that the UERM aren't as affected by amping, so you can feel free to take them along on a bus or plane and put them directly through your phone or iPod and have most of the quality as you do at home. These also provide isolation, something you will soon learn to love with kids on the way.

You can read my impressions of dozens of combinations at the link in my signature from the show last weekend.

 

[n3rdling]

I haven't heard the UERM but I have a hard time believing an IEM will come close to the K1000 or HD800 in soundstage.  If I were to go with an IEM I wouldn't bother amping them or at the very least go with a more proper amplifier for them like a Pico or Mini3.  I think you'll be very happy with the K1000 or HD800, both are nice but I'd probably EQ the treble a bit.