[AppleheadMay]

I know nada about vintage amps so I have no idea which are good or bad.

The requirements would be:
A solid state receiver, thus with built in tuner.
Very good headphone output.
Preferably enough speaker power.
Wooden housing or side panels.
A lot of knobs and buttons, meters and blue and red lights, something that looks like a brothel.
Japanese brand and good quality, 230V.

Any suggestions are welcome.
If these things cost a lot a trade with someone that wants one of my headphone amps is possible.

I will also need some small speakers to go with it and was thinking of these pure malt speakers.
 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Of course, more ideas on matching speakers are welcome as well.

 

[moodyrn]

There's an epic 300+ page thread I started in the headphone amp section, dealing only with vintage receivers/amps. Both tubes and solid state are discussed with the majority of the discussions being solid state though.

 

[AppleheadMay]

Thanks for the tip, I'll look into the thread but 300+ pages will take me a while.
Meanwhile, anyone who wants to give me some tips here is welcome of course.
I must say I know nothing about these things, like what are the good ones, how much cash are we talking about etc ...
I wouldn't want to spend too much money on it but can't give any indication untill I know what price range a good one falls in. On the other hand, I only want to buy one and only once and not upgrade afterwards anymore.
If we are talking about a nice amount of cash I wouldn't mind trading for one of my headphone amps with someone as well. But I have no clue of costs at the moment.

 

[moodyrn]

Well it depends on if you're looking for budget, midfi, ot totl. Lower end receivers/amps don't typically sound like lower end gear(well of course some of them do). There have been people reporting some of their budget pieces are on par with 1000.00 solid state headphone amps. Headfi user Frank I sold his concerto after getting his feet wet with a pioneer sx650 which is third from the bottom of the sx line. That can be had for around 35.00 or even lower. The totls in the pioneer sx line consists of sx1010, 1250, 1280, and 1980. The 1010 is the sweet spot, and something I have personally owned. It can be had for 300-400.00 with the 1980 fetching around 1800-2500.00 depending on condition. Of course you have everything in between such as 7xx,8xx,9xx, and 10xx.
 
Those are just some of pioneer's receivers, their integrated amps are also well regarded. Marantz may be the most popular brand overall, and the 2230 is a very popular entry level to great sound with people even loving models below it such as the 2215, and 2220. I have a 2325 which usually go for 500-1500.00 depending on condition, but I could go on for hours really. There are so many from a ton of manufacturers from that day which is why the thread is so huge. Some, including myself have decided we're done with modern "dedicated" headphone amps(on the solid state side) because you can get similar or better sound for much, much less money. Now this may be hard to believe, but once you get your feet wet with a good condition or refurbished vintage piece, you'll understand. They just don't build them like that anymore. But just check out the thread, there's a ton of very good info on pretty much every significant amp/receiver from that era.
 
But it can be hit or miss. The best way is to buy locally. Some buy off ebay, and ends up getting not what they paid for. But even if you come across something that needs to be repair, It's still worth it imo.

 

[Pudu]

I know next to nothing ... but that's never stopped me before.

I don't think many of these vintage receivers will leave you wanting for power. I believe Pioneer threw down the gauntlet with the sx-1010 in '75 and things got bigger and louder from there. The question is which sound suits you. I've only listened briefly to Marantz and now Pioneer - so this is all from what I've read. As I understand Marantz and Sansui tend towards the warmer side of things, Pioneer towards brighter, and the others I have no idea. And I have no idea how wide the spectrum is.

The big trick is locating a unit in good working order. They weigh a ton (~23kg + ) so shipping is not to be taken lightly - especially if you will want to return it if it's condition isn't as advertised. The difference between crap and a good machine is impossible to tell short of turning it on and having a listen, and ebay seems flooded with overpriced questionable looking stuff. A local purchase is your best bet. Also they suffer from all things collectable - many units are priced far higher than you'd expect because of the cachet in owning those models. They go anywhere from $50 - 300 for something that's been sitting in someone's basement and will likely need a bit of work to get cleaned up and sounding good, up to $1600 and more (at least there's a Pioneer SX-1980 that's been listed in Canada here for the last month at that price, and it hasn't even been recapped/serviced as far as I can tell from the ad). Many people buy them as a project - to clean and rebuild themselves - so they can end up for a very nice unit for significantly less than if you just want to buy one, plunk it on your shelf and plug it in. Think about doubling the price to have it recapped (if needed) and brought up to speed depending on the condition - likely not worth it for the low end models but probably a good investment if you want to do it with one of the highly coveted TOTL ones.

Many of the models came in 110v and 220v versions ( just sporting a different model number or face plate colour) or even dual voltage. They all have plenty of knobs, switches, lights, and some even have meters ..ahem. Pick the one that most turns you on, negotiate a fair price, and remember to practice safe listening .... uh, what I mean is these things have a lot of juice. Don't blow your driver unexpectedly. Everyone should always protect their cans.

The models that get lots of talk are the Marantz 22xx with 2275 and 2285 being towards the top of the line. The 22x5 were from the later seventies I think and the 22x0 were earlier in that decade (please correct me, anyone who knows what they are talking about). The later models were technically 'better' but that doesn't necessarily translate into 'sound' better. There are also b models so the 2285 is noticeably different than 2285b - especially when it comes to price and availability. Sansui top dogs are the 8080 and the 9090 (I think). Pioneer favs are sx-1980, 1280, 1250, 1050, 950, 980 - many people claim to prefer the -50 sound to the -80 sound, though I'm not sure how much difference there is. Many models, for example the 9090db, incorporated Dolby technology, in particular Dolby fm - which is fairly useless now and difficult to repair I believe.

The trick comes in biding your time and finding one that is in great condition and doesn't cost too much. I don't know what the market is like where mayonnaise tastes good on frites, but the lads in the US get better deals than we here in Canada. Again, this is all gleaned from recent reading. Hopefully someone will come along and correct all the misinformation I have spewed herein. And spend the time in the real thread, if only for the glorious eye candy.


Edit: Listen to moodyrn, I wouldn't have typed this if he had been a few minutes quicker

Also for perspective there's a sx-1010 here that claims to have everything cleaned, all caps checked and replaced where needed, etc. It's listed for $600 but hasn't moved in the last few weeks.

 

[obobskivich]

The biggest problem with vintage, ime, is availability. We can talk about our dream receivers all day long, but it comes down to what is actually available that you can source (and then if you can afford it).

I know that Technics has a large fanbase, and there's vintagetechnics.co.uk that lists most of the Technics products from the 1970s to at least the 1990s - with information where available. I'm not aware of similar databases for other brands; I know Kenwood is usually under-represented online (at least in my experience of trying to find information for my various Kenwood/TRIO products).

Anyways, for what you're describing, I'm envisioning McIntosh, Technics, Marantz, and Sansui. Something like this, right:


Or are you looking for a different look? (That's a late 1970s model; as you move into the 1980s you get into black anodized or plastic faceplates and a more "digital" look - there's LOTS of nice Yamaha models you can look at (even some current production ones) that fit into that schema). Something like this:


I agree with most of what Pudu said (okay, so I skimmed, sue me) - good working order, heavy, etc. I think Technics still holds the title of "biggest, meanest" receiver ever built (the one I used an image of, the SA-1000; that's 330wpc), but I may be mistaken. Regardless, lots of these units have absolutely ridiculous power amplifiers in them (that Yamaha M80 stack is something like 250-400wpc, I don't remember the exact values, it also does Auto Class A operation)); some of them are fairly pedestrian though - featuring maybe a 20-30W amplifier. Often you'll hear people say those watts are "louder" or "more real" - this is a slippery slope. In lots of cases, older equipment has more honest ratings (its a lot easier to get 2x100W out of a box that can only draw 1800W from the wall, than it is to get 11x150W out of the same), but there's also the question of sensitivity and gain (there's a great AK post on this: http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=58829) - I have an old Technics that has a "1-10" volume control, and it's absolutely ear-splitting at like 3 or 4. Compared to newer equipment with digital log scales that go from -85 to +15, and usually run at around -20 to be "loud ish" that makes the Technics seem "a lot louder." But you have to consider, on that log scale, the digital unit has 100x left to go up to 0 dB (we'll assume we're talking about a quality modern unit that lives up to its ratings as well, and yes they do exist, they just tend to cost a lot).

Finally, what I'd hate to see anyone do, is pick up an old department store machine that really should've been recycled, just because of "vintage hype" - while a lot of old units are absolute maulers and can easily sit at the table with the biggest, meanest outboard amplifiers you can source from NAD, Parasound, Rotel, and CI Audio (or wherever), there's also lots of junk. Just like today. So whatever you find, it's worth doing at least a cursory search before you pull the trigger on it.

Here's a great agon example of a machine:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/marantz-vintage-receiver-2275-shipping-included-with-as

As far as the 230v requirement - I would almost say it's best to consider 110v and 100v units as well, and get a transformer if you need it. Probably means a wider range of options.

If you're really married to that 1970s look, that's absolutely fine. But I would stress that there's lots of fantastic 1980s machines out there as well, and plug Yamaha's current receivers/integrateds (Which have remained more or less untouched since the early 1990s, and even then they were getting dated), like this:
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/hifi-components/amps/a-s1000_black__u/?mode=model (afaik the only difference to the "up model" is balanced connections)

I've got no idea on those speakers - I remember them being advertised here in the 'states briefly, they were relatively expensive, and then they vanished into thin air. My guess is they're probably more expense than they're worth. In the world of vintage speakers, assuming they're in good shape, I like Sansui and Technics speakers. There's always Klipsch (and they still build all of their vintage kit brand new to order: http://www.klipsch.com/heritage-speakers) as well, but I'd be careful that you don't over-pay just because you're looking at a set that PWK actually touched or something like that (unless that matters to you). If you're buying modern speakers, that's a'whole'nother story. Apart from the Klipsch Heritage set, the only "vintage looking" speakers I'm aware of are the Bose 901 (which, like the Klipsch speakers, have been in continuous production for something like 50 years); you will need an insert loop to use them (and on the note of Bose, their vintage stack (1801/4401) is an absolute monster):

 

[AppleheadMay]

Thanks for the great info everyone, you got me on my way with brands and models.
The 70ies look is indeed my taste and Pioneer is a brand I would surely consider while Marantz has always been a favorite and something my friend/dealer would love to work on.
As for speakers I really want to go for a small bookshelf type that has a bit of a retro look.
I can get these Pioneer Pure Malt speakers for a nice price fom my dealer but will have a listen first, he has themn in stock.
Another pair I can geet cheap are the Sonus Faber Toy speakers made in black leather and about the same size as the Pioneer.
The Klipsh Heritage are almost all floorstanders I saw. And the Bose 901 is pretty wide, I rememebr that one well.
And if these amps are indeed powerful they should be able to drive these low sensitivity bookshelves with ease.
 

 
 
Now I'll be getting into that big thread this weekend, I'm really getting interested.

 

[obobskivich]

The 901 are something like two feet wide if I remember right, and yes, all of those Klipsch speakers are absolutely HUGE (the Khorns are like small fridges). I actually can't find a picture of Khorns with anything in the image for comparison, but from the Klipsch site:
DIMENSIONS: 50 .75 H (128.91 cm) x 31.25 W (79.38 cm) x 28.25 D (71.75 cm)
WEIGHT: 175 lbs unboxed

That's per-each. :eek:

The other models are smaller, but consider what we're talking about relatively.

On the upside, they're super efficient and can handle a relatively large amount of power; this means you can get VERY LOUD. :basshead:

Bookshelves can be nifty, but I'd make two suggestions:
- Consider power handling.
- Consider a (quality) subwoofer.

Basically there's two schools of thought with speakers - the "old school" system where you have massive units (Khorns, 901s, SPX 9000, SB-10000, etc) with huge low-freq drivers and massive boxes, and the "new school" system where you have nice little satellites that will fit inside a normal house, and a subwoofer tucked away somewhere to fill-in for those huge boxes. If you do the "new school" system correctly, you can get amazing results! With vintage equipment in the mix, it can get a bit interesting, but it's not impossible.

I've never heard those fabers, but the fabers I have heard (Guraneri and Cremona) were no slouches; fairly expensive though. The ones you pictured would go nice with L3000s. You might also look at the CM1, RB-81, and maybe the new PM1 (I have not heard this one; looks dapper though! supposed to be a "baby brother" for the 805). Of all of those, the RB-81 is probably my pick (I'm really not a fan of the CM and the 802 didn't leave a strong impression). There's LOTS of nice older Technics/Sansui/etc speakers though; just as with the amps though, ensure that the crossovers checkout.

If you want super small, the Mirage nanosats and OMNI towers are nice (OS3-FS looks like the newest incarnation; OMD towers are nice but probably into the "too big" range), but you will absolutely need a subwoofer. Check this one out though: http://www.miragespeakers.com/bookshelf-speakers/?sku=14035

 

[RexAeterna]

with separates yamaha M-XX series i would try get something bit smaller if you're trying to save money and don't need the extra headroom. the m-45 at 125wpc@8ohms and can drive up to 390w@2ohm nominal load is more then enough power for anything. reason why i say smaller m-xx series if going yamaha and if don't need the extra power either is cause what's awesome about yamaha and their m series power amps all perform sonically the same since yamaha made sure to make it that way but while with bigger models beefing up the power. the m-45 might be considered BOTL but sonically performs as well as the m-80.

the bigger models offer more class A headroom as well but the cross-over distortion on the yamaha's are soooo low already it does not matter so A/B operation is fine. class A will stay on all times though if you use headphones off the speaker outs cause of the higher seen impedance by the amp, so class A will most likely stay on completely.

 

[AppleheadMay]

for now I found these and wonder if anything is worth my attention:
 
Dual 1780

 
Marantz 2250B

 
Marantz 2330

 
Pioneer SX-770

 
Marantz SC-6 + SM-6 + ST-8
 

 

[moodyrn]

The marantz 2330 by a mile, followed by the 2250. I wouldn't waste my time with the dual. The pioneer and other marantz that's shown, isn't from the golden era of vintage. There were a few around 1980-1983 that were good. But I really would stick with gear from the 70's for solid state, and tube gear from the 60's or even 50's.

 

[AppleheadMay]

Thanks Moodyrn. As I'm a Marantz fan anyway I'll try to grab these of Fleabay. Both are listed in Germany and 230V I believe. I bought good stuff from Germany before, most German eBayers are pretty srious folk in my experience.
Here are the links with lots of pics, internals and all, maybe they have been restored, I understand some German but not all of it.
Do you think both are a safe bet?
 
2250B
 
2330

 

[moodyrn]

The 2250 looks clean, and looks to be all original. So I don't know if anything would need to be replaced or not. But the internals do look very good. I would still try to shoot for the 2330. It looks to be at least partially restored. I can't tell to what extend with the pics, but the obvious upgraded is the power supply caps. I will say, replacing those caps in mine did tighten up the bass, and added a bit of extension and impact as well. So if that's the only upgrade, it's a nice one. Also the wood case is a bonus. It looks to need a  little work, but these cases were real wood, with real finishes. So they are very easy to repair, and unless there are deep gorges(which appear not to be the case) it won't even need sanding. You can pay 200.00-250.00 for the case alone, and a new production is even more.
 
The only negative I can think of with my marantz, or pretty much all of the marantz for that matter, is the lack of a -20db button that many brands of vintage gear have. The headphone out of many of the upper tier ones are extremely powerful. Some extremely sensitive cans may hiss a little. My w3000 hisses a little, but not to the point of being annoying. Many vintage receivers/amps offset this with a -20db button which significantly lowers the gain. I was able to use my jh13 with the pioneer I had hiss free with the -20 button engaged. So this may be one thing you may want to think about. But the receiver just sounds lovely. I directly compared my 2325 with a friends darkstar  powering the he6, and had to go back and forth just to decern the difference. We later came to the conclusion that the dark was maybe 5% better, but it was really close. It even held it's own with his hd800 via the liquid fire, but it wasn't quiet as close as with the darkstar/he6 combo, but still held it's own. But the marantz sounds even better as a speaker amp. So it's still more than worth it imo.

 

[moodyrn]

Still, there are outstanding products from many manufactures of that day. Some examples are sansui, yamaha, kenwood, harman kardon just name a few. So deciding on which brand comes down to which sound you like. Like someone else stated, the sansui's and marantz's are going to be warm, with the marantz being the most warm. The pioneers and yamaha's are on the neutral side, with the kenwoods being somewhere in the middle. My favorite has been the kenwood kr9600. But that's because it kind of gives you the best of both worlds with it's ability to match good with both warm and bright headphones and speakers(plus 160 true "conservatively" rated wpc doesn't hurt either). But I would check out the vintage thread, it's massive, but there's some great examples and impressions of some great sounding pieces. There's also a vintage speaker thread which has  some great info as well. I'm a big klipsch fan, but their speaker are pretty big. But the kg4 is about the size of really large bookshelf, and is prefer by some over the heresy. I owned for a while and was really happy with it.

 

[AppleheadMay]

Will check out the Kenwood as well, thanks.
Would a 72 Ohm resistor plug be of any use for sensitive phones instead of the -20dB button?
 
I am reading up on the thread already ... and drooling at the pictures.  
 
The Klipsch are way too big for me since they will be on my desk as a second speaker system together with the XT2s that are driven by my KI Pearl.
I would either go for the Pioneer Malts, Sonus Toys or vintage Infinity Kappa 5 if I can find those.
All of those should be no problem with the power the 2330 or kr9600 deliver.
 
 
Kappa 5 ... I always loved the old big Kappas and Renaissance series.