[krmathis]

To me it seems to be mostly about supply and demand.
Look some 5-15 years back and most of the major manufacturers had a high-end statement model on the market. Sennheiser HE90, Sony MDR-R10, Sony Qualia 010, Stax SR-007, AKG K1000, Audio-technica ATH-L3000 and Grado PS1 to name some.
But most of these have since then gone out of production without successors, as the manufacturers probably have concentrated on the mass-market headphones (HD650, K701, ...). Until recently that is when they obviously have seen an unfilled demand in the market, and slowly start releasing new statement models again.

They still have reasonable priced mass-market headphones out there, so if you can not afford the top end you get 85-90% of the sound quality for around 1/5 of the price.

 

[Bullseye]

Again with the dumb thing of "good speakers are extremely expensive". Well that is not true, and as he said you can get a very good set of monitor speakers for around $1000.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif Again with the dumb thing of "good speakers are extremely expensive". Well that is not true, and as he said you can get a very good set of monitor speakers for around $1000.

To clarify, I've got a pretty good home theater setup that is less than $3000 and it's pretty darn good, but I mentioned TOP HEADPHONE $$$ vs. TOP LOUDSPEAKER $$$. And here there is a huge difference.

By the way, my home theater speakers cost 2x that of my T1s, but sounds pretty crappy next to the T1s! So bang for your buck, you're still better off with the headphones.

 

[wali]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnmnkh /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, you are talking about speakers' strength compared to headphones. Of course any semi-decent speakers will give you good soundstage, but headphones excel in accuracy and detail of the sound which speakers in similar price just can't reproduce (no, Audioengine A2 just cannot compete with K701 in terms of detail, for example.) Now, remember the 'cost' of having speakers is not stricted to speakers/amp/source, you need to consider..... 1.) noise problem. 2.) room acoustic problem. 3.) space problem. The cost WILL rise if you try to address these problems. With all these points headphones have little/no problems.

I used to believe in that argument, but its not entirely true. speakers have the ability to sound good even with a lot of 'problems' because of their higher volume and their ability to 'magnify' music. speakers are like looking at a large poster from a distance. headphones are like looking at a small picture with a magnifier.

the argument is not headphone vs. speakers because speakers are the more natural of the two compared to live music experience. i was simply hinting at a shift in headphone market where it has gone the way of higher price=it must be good direction and that price right now is $1000+ where as it used to be $500 for dynamic headphones.

 

[wali]

Quote:

Originally Posted by krmathis /img/forum/go_quote.gif To me it seems to be mostly about supply and demand. Look some 5-15 years back and most of the major manufacturers had a high-end statement model on the market. Sennheiser HE90, Sony MDR-R10, Sony Qualia 010, Stax SR-007, AKG K1000, Audio-technica ATH-L3000 and Grado PS1 to name some. But most of these have since then gone out of production without successors, as the manufacturers probably have concentrated on the mass-market headphones (HD650, K701, ...). Until recently that is when they obviously have seen an unfilled demand in the market, and slowly start releasing new statement models again. They still have reasonable priced mass-market headphones out there, so if you can not afford the top end you get 85-90% of the sound quality for around 1/5 of the price.

Those headphones which you mentioned are collectors items for good reason, they were unique and either were innovative or had exceptional build quality.

With HD800 paint coming off, T1 looking like a $100 headphone and others which their only claim to fame being "great sound quality after a few mods and a month of burn-in, balanced cables etc...", these new generation of headphones have no other defining qualities like innovation, craftsmanship or sheer crazy design (AKG1000).

I think high quality headphones have become mainstream and so is headphone hobby.

 

[Redo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wali /img/forum/go_quote.gif I used to believe in that argument, but its not entirely true. speakers have the ability to sound good even with a lot of 'problems' because of their higher volume and their ability to 'magnify' music.

Volume doesn't solve room shape and reflectivity problems at all, it ends up being louder soundwaves fighting each other. This is why my outdoor speakers sound the best of any speakers in my house, while they aren't better speakers, they have near zero reflection problems. This is also the reason why lots of subwoofers test their FR outdoors, it's an easy way to get accurate results without dumping tens of thousands of dollars into an acoustic chamber.

Speakers offer something headphones can never achieve, and I honestly prefer a good speaker setup 90% of the time. But in practice that's a very tall and expensive order, especially if your house doesn't have "speaker friendly" room shapes like mine (which turns it into an impossibility).

 

[pyramid6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wali /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... i was simply hinting at a shift in headphone market where it has gone the way of higher price=it must be good direction and that price right now is $1000+ where as it used to be $500 for dynamic headphones.

Not really.

Denon USA | AH-D5000
Sennheiser USA - High Quality Headphones, HD 650 Around Ear Headphones - Private Audio

Neither are $500.
(I know you can get them for cheaper now.)

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wali /img/forum/go_quote.gif Those headphones which you mentioned are collectors items for good reason, they were unique and either were innovative or had exceptional build quality. With HD800 paint coming off, T1 looking like a $100 headphone and others which their only claim to fame being "great sound quality after a few mods and a month of burn-in, balanced cables etc...", these new generation of headphones have no other defining qualities like innovation, craftsmanship or sheer crazy design (AKG1000). I think high quality headphones have become mainstream and so is headphone hobby.

Obviously you have never physically seen a T1, it in NO WAY looks like a $100 headphone. Have a real look and get hands on with them first and then comment. It is a serious headphone with a construction that one would expect for a $1000+ headphone.

You might want to read some reviews on it on the beyer thread as well by those of us (including Skylab) who actually own them and are totally thrilled with the way it and it's very special construction.

It is one of the best and sturdiest headphones I've ever heard, seen, or held.

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacedonianHero /img/forum/go_quote.gif Obviously you have never physically seen a T1, it in NO WAY looks like a $100 headphone. Have a real look and get hands on with them first and then comment. It is a serious headphone with a construction that one would expect for a $1000+ headphone. You might want to read some reviews on it on the beyer thread as well by those of us (including Skylab) who actually own them and are totally thrilled with the way it and it's very special construction. It is one of the best and sturdiest headphones I've ever heard, seen, or held.

I obviously agree - the T1 in person most certainly do not look like $100 headphones. And they do have some serious driver technology behind them.

Audio has always had "statement" products - in every category - this is not new. And it doesn't mean there are not great headphones for less. I don't see why this is surprising - and it shouldn't be an issue. I for one am GLAD that headphone manufacturers are willing to make statement headphones - surely that will result in their whole lines being improved, at some point.

 

[loopfreak]

For 1000 $ adam a7 with room treatment but they haven't got that exclusive factor which is crucial in this case !

 

[Wmcmanus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wali /img/forum/go_quote.gif Those headphones which you mentioned are collectors items for good reason, they were unique and either were innovative or had exceptional build quality. With HD800 paint coming off, T1 looking like a $100 headphone and others which their only claim to fame being "great sound quality after a few mods and a month of burn-in, balanced cables etc...", these new generation of headphones have no other defining qualities like innovation, craftsmanship or sheer crazy design (AKG1000).

You don't think the HD800 or T1 have any defining qualities like innovation or craftsmanship?

I guess you're a tough customer and should simply vote "no" by choosing not to spend your hard earned dollars on such products.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif I obviously agree - the T1 in person most certainly do not look like $100 headphones. And they do have some serious driver technology behind them. Audio has always had "statement" products - in every category - this is not new. And it doesn't mean there are not great headphones for less. I don't see why this is surprising - and it shouldn't be an issue. I for one am GLAD that headphone manufacturers are willing to make statement headphones - surely that will result in their whole lines being improved, at some point.

I agree with these observations and am likewise glad that we're now seeing the likes of the HD800 and T1, thus I'm voting "yes" to the efforts put forth by Sennheiser and Beyerdynamik when I buy their flagship products.

I could buy a car instead of a motorcycle, but it won't give me the same driving experience. Yes, I would expect that cars will be, on average, more expensive than motorcylces, and certainly the best cars will be considerably more expensive than the best motorcycles. But I'm not at all surprised that a top of the line Ducati costs more than a basic, no frills, economy car. I'll be happy to pay a premium price the for best in style, speed, and overall handling (braking, suspension, etc.) that modern engineering can provide. It's a real pleasure to ride in style and to know that you have that raw performance at your disposal, and as boring as can be to drive a run of the mill economy car.

Likewise, I'm hearing things with the HD800 (and I suspect the same will be true of the T1, although mine haven't arrived yet) that I'd never be able to hear with a $1,000 to $1,400 pair of studio monitors. The presentation of music is simply different with speakers than it is with headphones (each have their own merits and limitations), but I'd prefer outstanding headphones any day over mediocre speakers.

 

[nonsupremous]

There are speakers out there that cost 1M dollars EACH. Can't even imagine what kind of system it takes to get a tiny piece of sound out of them!!

I wonder what a Million dollar headphone would sound like????

 

[Wmcmanus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nonsupremous /img/forum/go_quote.gif I wonder what a Million dollar headphone would sound like????

That, I agree, would be overpriced.

 

[nonsupremous]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif That, I agree, would be overpriced.

LOL.

 

[hawat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nonsupremous /img/forum/go_quote.gif There are speakers out there that cost 1M dollars EACH. Can't even imagine what kind of system it takes to get a tiny piece of sound out of them!! I wonder what a Million dollar headphone would sound like????

They will probably sound like regular headphones but they will surely look like this but with true diamonds instead.