subs: cylinders vs. boxes
Sep 16, 2003 at 7:04 AM Post #16 of 27
gerg
Hsu does offer a 30 day guarantee but that doesn't matter much to me since I won't have the opportunity to compare them directly. I am fairly confident that both companies make good products.

I don't really understand the ins and outs of the high pass and low pass filters. Care to go into that any? Or look at the product info on SVS and Hsu web sites and see what you make of them?
 
Sep 16, 2003 at 3:36 PM Post #17 of 27
I have 2 SVS 20-39 PC Plus.
And I can not imagine having anything else.
Well... Except maybe something higher end by SVS.

I truely love them.
 
Sep 16, 2003 at 3:43 PM Post #18 of 27
Quote:

Originally posted by Ph34rful
I have 2 SVS 20-39 PC Plus.
And I can not imagine having anything else.
Well... Except maybe something higher end by SVS.

I truely love them.


I'm really leaning toward the 16-46 right now. Are there any disadvantages at all with this sub? Anything you don't like?
 
Sep 18, 2003 at 3:07 PM Post #19 of 27
Here is what SVS says in their FAQ

(The FAQ is huge--this is just the piece on my question.) Please speak up if you agree or disagree with what they have to say.

4) What's best for me? Cylinder or Box SVS?

Like so many things in life... it depends. Some folks like the cutting-edge, unique and understated elegance of our Cylinder Subwoofers, others value the more traditional but likewise slick simplicity of our newer box designs. In fact, aesthetics ... how you want your sub to look ... is probably the most significant consideration in your decision here. Still, there are some other "pro's and con's" to consider, and even the question of "looks" isn't as straightforward as it might seem at first. How you weigh these issues is clearly a personal call. A note for some who consider it important, all our enclosures, cylinder and box, are made in the USA exclusively for SVS. When so many accept the fallacy that "Made in America" can't be done affordably, we're pretty proud of that.

Executive summary?? In short, cylinders tend to cost less, are noticeably taller, but at the same time lighter and easier to move. Boxes tend to have considerably more "heft" (requiring more "grunt" to place them), have nice flat tops you can put things on, yet cost a bit more than the closest performing cylinder equivalent. Want further discussion on this eternal question??? Read on.

Cylinder Subwoofers: The original SVS designs were all cylinder-based for some very good reasons. First and foremost it's a very efficient audio enclosure from a number of perspectives. The internal pressures of an SVS can be intense! Ever wonder why cylinders are used to contain compressed gasses?? They can't stretch easily, and tend to resist forms of wall distortion that boxes must combat. In short a box wall must be many times thicker and heavier to equal the strength of a simple cylinder. This affects several things in turn...

Weight: For a equal level of performance and enclosure space (the key to getting deep and powerfully clean bass) a cylinder will be lighter, and that means easier to move around your room, or from house to house as you go through life. One example. Our PB1-ISD weighs in around 78 pounds. The 25-31PCi is virtually identical in performance, but weighs in a relatively svelte 55 pounds. Now, 23 pounds might not sound like much, until you haul one up to the top floor of a dorm room, or nudge one into a tight spot in a basement. Most our cylinders you can sling on your shoulder, most our box subs are decidedly "two-person lift" entities. Now we know that for some customers weight is good, it connotes quality and value. If you fall into this camp, then the relative light weight of a PCi isn't an advantage. In practical terms most folks will find 55 pounds quite enough!

Floor space: Because our cylinders go "up, not out" they can contain prodigious amounts of internal volume that would make for a huge box "foot-print". While a round cylinder base-plate can't snug into the very corner of a room like a box can, our cylinder subs still tend to take up less floor space than a box equivalent.

Finish/looks: Except for our hand-crafted SS subwoofers, all our cylinder subs are finished in a tough knit velvet like black fabric we sourced from a high-end Architectural supply company. Its light scattering properties means even our tallest Cylinder Subs practically disappear in a dark home theater corner. We've had reports of spouses that didn't even notice a surreptitious SVS upgrade until it was pointed out to them. We've sold countless thousands of them and know that most folks love their look.

Some don't. They prefer the harder, more conventional edges of a box and the hard pebble finish of our box sub's poly-finish. While the boxes are a similar shade of black, the fact they are not fabric covered enclosures is a plus, and we're not one's to argue. We developed high-performance SVS box subs precisely because folks asked for a more traditional design as an option.

Cost: Because the cylinder design is so efficient and relatively easy to manufacture, an equivalent box subwoofer will tend to cost more. Not much, but for some folks every audio budget dollar counts. To use the PB1-ISD as an example, it performs virtually the same as a 25-31PCi subwoofer (with the optional, no-cost 22Hz tune we offer). The PCi is $549, the PB1-ISD costs $599. Now, you might light Cuban cigars with $50 bills, but if per chance you don't, at least you understand that a box design can cost a bit more up front. Shipping naturally adds costs too, and depending on where you live you can expect a 25-31PCi to cost roughly $15-$25 less to ship than its PB1-ISD cousin. Our larger box subs will also cost more to ship (though all will be quickly calculated based on your location before you place an order so you can check). Our UPS shipping rates are still amazingly low no matter how price sensitive you are.

Box Subwoofers: So cylinders have it "all over" boxes, right? Not hardly. Even though we engineer audio solutions for demanding buyers, there is nothing quite perfect (to our way of thinking). Cylinders have their advantages, and so too do their box brethren.

Size: While their designs are similar in nature (using common woofers, amps, ports etc) SVS box subs tend to strike some folks as less visually obtrusive. All while taking up more floor space. Why?? Box subs tend to be able to tuck tightly into a corner (you still need a few inches for the rear firing ports to breathe) and are naturally much shorter to boot. A PB1-ISD is a mere 20" tall including its integral base-plate, while even our shortest cylinder sub is a little over 35" tall.

Performance: If enclosure volume in about the same, there are no significant disadvantages, in terms of raw performance, due to a box shape versus a cylinder. But (there has to be a "but" right??)... boxes do lend themselves to multi-driver configurations that are simply not practical in a cylinder design. The PB1-ISD has single woofer so as you might expect, it's virtually identical to a 22Hz tuned version of our 25-31PCi subwoofer (especially since it shares all the same parts as the PCi subs). If you are with us so far then, you already know that when we release a PB1-Plus later this year (Powered Box, with one "Plus" woofer and three way porting) you can expect it to perform much like a 25-31PC-Plus.

More performance considerations. You need look no further than our killer B4-Plus to understand that SVS is already pushing the limits of box design to a new level too. FOUR of our Plus woofers in a massive "box" cabinet means performance that would take several of our best cylinder subs to match. Just keep in mind this is a custom-built, 26" high x 32" wide x 25" deep 190 pound bruiser that costs $2,495, not including an amp. Keep in mind too that even one of our CS-Ultra cylinders can leave some other $3,000 18" woofer box subs in the dust. So a sense of perspective is important.

Another example?? What about a "PB2-Plus"?? This is our Powered Box, two driver subwoofer set to debut in the first quarter of 2003. It'll include a massive amp that would simply be too much for nearly any single woofer, even the vaunted TV-12 "Ultra" driver. Will the PB2-Plus also be big and heavy?? You bet; but in terms of sheer power it'll outperform any other single powered sub in the SVS line up (if not the world), simply by virtue of its dual woofer configuration and sufficiently robust built-in power. Box subs allow multiple woofer designs more easily but weight, cost and size go up accordingly. Two 16" cylinder SVS's can often fit in a room where one large box SVS like the forthcoming PB2-Plus might not.

Cost: Any single woofer box sub from SVS we'll offer will tend to cost about 10% more than its closest performing cylinder equivalent due to more costly enclosure construction. Yet considering even the lowest cost SVS box subs, like the PB1-ISD already outperforms most subs costing from $200 to $1,500 more than ours, we don't think that's much of a premium.

Finish: Some folks like boxes, others hate them due to their relative commonality in the speaker world. Regardless of how you feel about that, the tough cured-poly finish of most the SVS box subs is simple, tough and attractive. Some might lament the lack of a "piano gloss" finish in our offerings, but in our experience what looks good in a magazine ad is typically a pain-in-the-butt to live with in the practical world of finger prints, scratches, dust, and "drink rings". You'll suffer none of that with our black finished subs (more care should be given to those offerings available in natural wood veneer like the B4-Plus, of course). Vacuum of your house-dust on occasion and you are done.

Practicality: There is not much more practical than a simple box. You can put it in a corner, put a plant on it, put a lamp on it, put Granny's picture on it (as long as you understand Granny might be moving around a bit during the pod-race scene in Star Wars: The Phantom Menace). A sub like our PB1-ISD will be impervious to your kids' peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, it'll be immune to the most vicious house cat (though to be fair, we've not had one owner report any defeating our tough cylinder subwoofer fabric either). Plants, your best friend's bottle of beer, and that 50 lb. bust of Beethoven are all very bad things to put on top of our cylinder subs by comparison. Their tops must be un-obstructed as their top-firing ports are protected by a relatively light-weight mesh grill. If this matters to you, the box SVS's gain another point in their favor.
 
Sep 18, 2003 at 3:19 PM Post #20 of 27
Quote:

Originally posted by kelly
I'm really leaning toward the 16-46 right now. Are there any disadvantages at all with this sub? Anything you don't like?


Not in my opinion. I absolutely love mine.
 
Sep 18, 2003 at 7:15 PM Post #21 of 27
Sorry I went missing. Lots going on right now.

I agree with their comments on tube vs box, although I am suspicious of some of the durability claims.

The SVS looks decent enough, and I give them a lot of credit for putting so much info on their site (although the hype factor is a bit high). The bottom plate approach really is a better way of coupling a downfiring driver. otoh I would have flipped it over to get the most ground plane boost in the lowest range, where the port is the emitter.

I found the response curve, and it looks real enough for this design. It is actually 3 db down by 45 hz, but it hangs in below there for a while, so you can compensate with crossover point and room placement to some extent.

The amp is a neat package, but I am curious about their crossover. I didn't find slopes, and it only has a single knob, so the high pass and low pass are hooked together, maybe. You should check and see if it does have a high pass at all. It would indeed be impressive if they hafe a variable high pass that works both active (for the RCA in/out) and passive (for the speaker in/out).

There are various ways of tackling the crossover. The most flexible is to connect outputs from the preamp to the inputs of of an active crossover, which is a box that sits on the electronics shelf with the other gear for easy tweaking. The active x-over is used to set low pass to the subs, high pass to the satellites, levels, and phase of the subs relative to the sats (plus many have equalization options). From there interconnects go from low-out to the sub amps, and another pair from high out to the sat amps.

The other end of the spectrum is the sub/amp/crossover combination. These are frequently set up with a low pass only, letting the satellites thrash around in full range. This is undesirable, and negates some of the benefits of subwoofers. Some sub amps add a passive crossover (fixed or limited variable) so that the speaker outputs from an amp or receiver go to the sub amp first, then back to the sats. Better than nothing, but less than ideal. The SVS has RCA ins and outs, which may mean the presence of an active high pass. That would be great, but will still have to run interconnects from your pre stage, over to the sub(s) and back to your amp stage. If you are using 2 subs with monoblock amps for the sats located near the subs, not a problem.

All in all, it looks like a lot of subwoofer for the money. I would recommend 2, of course
wink.gif



gerG
 
Sep 18, 2003 at 7:25 PM Post #22 of 27
Oh, one more comment: these are bass reflex designs. That makes the most efficient use of the driver (more output with less excursion) but it does not have the same damping and transient capabilities of a properly designed sealed sub. This is more of an issue if used in nearfield (or outdoors). With typical room placements the room resonances add more smearing than the sub does. The lower the crossover point, the less of an issue this becomes.


gerG
 
Sep 18, 2003 at 8:09 PM Post #23 of 27
I have an SVS PB1-ISD and there is absolutely no desire to upgrade. This thing is incredible. No bloat, no boominess, just tons of clean, articulate, tight bass all the way down to 22hz. With a test tone cd we can literally find the resonance at which the doorways vibrate, the bookshelf vibrates, and more than once I've had to pause the dvd/cd to straighten out the paintings on the wall.
biggrin.gif
That said, it integrates surprisingly well into a 2-channel music system, and blends damn near seamlessly with the Axiom M22's we have as mains. It does exactly what I've always wanted a sub to do, fill in the low register with absolute authority, without any sluggishness or bloat that constantly reminds me there's a sub in the system.

Obviously I highly recommend SVS. Their customer service is outstanding. If you send them a floor plan of your room and what you plan to use the sub for (mainly movies/mainly music), they'll recommend the sub for you and even give you tips on placement given your room. The only drawback I can see to the 16-46 is that it is HUGE - it's hard to place a 4-foot tall black tower in a room without it demanding attention. But even then, the drawback is aesthetic only.

So far I haven't heard anybody who has been less than completely satisfied by an SVS (or HSU, for that matter) sub. Either company you pick, I'm sure you'll be satisfied.
 
Sep 19, 2003 at 1:47 AM Post #24 of 27
Tom and Ron were nothing but extremely helpful in mine and a lot of others DIY quests before the birth of SVS. Its no wonder I never hear anything but good reviews about their products.
 
Sep 19, 2003 at 1:51 AM Post #25 of 27
I've been in contact with Tom via email and it really sounds like they're a little more proud of what the PB2-isd box can do than the comparably priced 16-46 cylinder. Unless something else comes up, I'll probably be ordering the PB2-isd as soon as I can scrape the funds together.
 
Sep 20, 2003 at 2:21 AM Post #26 of 27
Quote:

Originally posted by kelly
Here are a couple of cylinders I'm considering specifically:

http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pcplus_16-46.htm

http://www.hsustore.com/tn1220-powered.html

Both companies also offer comparably priced boxes, though.


Dr. Hsu has recommended the VTF-3 over his cylinder subs, and this for a living room that, due to a pair of huge unclosable walkways essentially needs a sub that can fill over 16,000 cubic feet with high spl.
 
Sep 20, 2003 at 3:47 AM Post #27 of 27
Quote:

Originally posted by ph0rk
Dr. Hsu has recommended the VTF-3 over his cylinder subs, and this for a living room that, due to a pair of huge unclosable walkways essentially needs a sub that can fill over 16,000 cubic feet with high spl.


Thanks, phork. That makes me feel a little more confortable in my decision. I do think from everything I can tell that SVS has the slight edge over Hsu in price/performance, especially with their new model, though. I have a feeling this will be a back and forth thing and that if I were buying a year from now the latest Hsu might be the one to get. It's nice got see cometition pushing technology and performance.
 

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