[kelly]

Can anyone point me to some relatively unbiased info. about cylinders vs. boxes. When would you want to use one vs. the other and how does room layout play into this decision?

I'm mostly looking at models from Hsu and SVS now. I've decided that Velodyne is just out of the realm of what I'm willing to pay. Let me know if you have other reasonable options.

 

[gerG]

I don't have any reference handy, but I am reasonably well aquainted with the 2 approaches. The main advantage of cylinders is that they are a much better pressure vessel than a cabinet with flat panels. Instead of the walls acting like passive radiators and messing up the tuning, they are pretty much impervious to pressure induced flexure, even with relatively thin, unbraced material. They are also pretty cheap to make since most are fabricated from Sonotube, a very heavy spiral cardboard material used for casting concrete columns. It has been a boon to subwoofer and telescope diy types. Some people are put off by the fact that the tubes are a paper product. If properly treated and finished it is no worse than the bonded cellulose product used in most box speakers (mdf). Other materials are also available (fiberglass, aluminum, concrete) but I haven't run across any manufacturers using it for large sub tubes. I am seriously considering the concrete route for my next outdoor subs.

Boxes are fine, but require more work to build (so higher manufacturing costs). To minimize wall flexure material stiffness and strength are important, as is bracing. Damping is usually not an issue since subs operate below the relevant resonant frequencies. The box will usually be heavier than the cylinder. fwiw I use high grade plywood in my box enclosures. Most manufacturers use mdf, as far as I know.

I can't think of any room issues that would favor one over the other. Cylinders are typically taller and more slender, which takes up less valuable floor space.

You might consider a diy sub, if you need another audio obsession to soak up your free hours

gerG

 

[kelly]

Thank ye, gerg. I actually am very much not wanting another hobby so it's going to be prebuilt for me.

I've read a little of the same things you've posted -- all else being equal, it SHOULD cost more to produce a box sub of equal quality, but I'm looking at subs that are all pretty similar in price. I guess they're just not passing the savings of making a cylinder amp down to the customer.

What I need to know more about, I guess, is how much room placement effects my decision. Are cylinders more sensitive to where they go in the room?

As always, form follows function for me and the best bang for the buck is what I want. I'm not really worried that some girl isn't going to go down on me because she didn't like the way I placed a cylinder in the corner of my home theater room.

 

[D-EJ915]

I don't know about which sounds better, but anything that has to do with tubes will be harder to seal, it's the main drawback, but there are a lot of DIY designs, and all are massive.

 

[kelly]

Here are a couple of cylinders I'm considering specifically:

http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pcplus_16-46.htm

http://www.hsustore.com/tn1220-powered.html

Both companies also offer comparably priced boxes, though.

 

[DarkAngel]

One issue is tube shape subs can have outboard amp with additional exposed wires/clutter, also at over 4ft tall x 12" dia can look awkward depending on placement, for corner no problem (home theater)

For two channel I don't like corner placement of sub, I prefer between 2 speakers and sub driver same plane as speaker drivers........high end speaker designers go to great lengths to line up drivers for time alignment by offsetting drivers or angling face of cabinent.

I know tests show if blind folded and spun in chair to disorient you you cannot accurately point to source of sub 60hz tones, they "seem" to be omnidirectional. .......I still say sounds best and more accurate soundstage between speakers drivers inline.

 

[DarkAngel]

HSU also recommends trying sub directly behind listening chair, usually requiring long cable runs and issues of clearance behind chair which can be nonstarter...........I would still like to some day try this arrangement and see how it effects perceived soundstage size etc.

I have never owned Tube sub, but because of placement of sub in my 2 channel systems I went with cube shaped HSU VTF2 & VTF3, for home theater I would more seroiusly consider tube shape.

 

[kelly]

Thanks, DA. I am interested in both 2 channel and HT and as much as I believe you can't have one system be good at both, I can't afford to have two seperate systems.

Behind my recliner is not really possible. I have three locations:

1) right rear corner of room (any height)
2) middle rear of room (behind and between listeners; any height)
3) near center channel, below projection screen in front (height restricted ~2.5')

 

[D-EJ915]

If you want major kick-in-the-pants from a subwoofer that is a normal box (non-DIY), then I'd suggest the B&W ASW3000 for a huge sub that easily rattles walls, and either a HGS or DD sub from Velodyne for space restraints, although the 10" and 12" won't play as well in the low depths.

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by D-EJ915 If you want major kick-in-the-pants from a subwoofer that is a normal box (non-DIY), then I'd suggest the B&W ASW3000 for a huge sub that easily rattles walls, and either a HGS or DD sub from Velodyne for space restraints, although the 10" and 12" won't play as well in the low depths.

As I said in the first post of this thread, Velodyne is beyond my budget ... and I have a feeling B&W would be also.

 

[princeclassic]

you'd probably be better off with the hsu and svs products rather than the B&W or most velodyne models.

 

[D-EJ915]

yeah, the subs I mentioned are movie subs more than music ones, but the B&W ASW3000 is discontinued (I think going on 2 years now), it cost $1500 to begin with, so it'd probably go for less than $1K, I think it's a bargain, it never runs out of power, and it's a 15"er with only a 300W amp!...the HSU are generally regarded as excellent subwoofers if you decide to go that way, but take note that you could easily build your own DIY sub for about $350 that easily outperforms their offerings (Parts Express 270W@4Ohm plate amp+ Dayton Audio Titanic Mk.II, or the new Lab12 sub is supposedly excellent also, you could always go for a car audio sub too, JL Audio subs are very good albeit pricey).

 

[Calanctus]

Thought about the ACI Force ? It's within your budget and gets positive user reports on AA. It's a standard box-shaped sub.

 

[gerG]

Oh, fair warning, subwoofer placement games wil drive you mad. Mad I say, muahahah...

ahem, sorry about him.

I agree with Dr. Hsu on the best indoor placement. Having the sub in nearfield eliminates a lot of the room excitations and that awful overhang that goes along with it. Rattling windows and vibrating walls is a bad thing. Come to think of it so are broken water pipes and cracked walls, but at least those don't interact with the sound to degrade my listening.

Sealing tubes is no problem, if properly designed. There is far less interface area to contend with as well.

Outboard amps are a huge plus in my book. Solder joints will eventually sucumb to vibration.

If possible, go with active crossover on both the high pass and low pass side. It requires a preamp/amp or IA with pre-outs/main-ins.

Does either company offer a satisfaction guarantee?

I still can't think of any placement issues associated with tube vs box. I don't like it when the driver and port are too far apart (like on different ends of a long tube). Funny results possible, especially for nearfield.

Oh, if you start looking at kits, that NHT 12" driver in a sealed cabinet is amazing! If I ever get time to build again, they are high on the must get list.


gerG

 

[D-EJ915]

a good thing of an outboard amp is that you can just use a standard monoblock (or stereo) and use an active crossover in between the two, it's easy (or between source-sub/amp for speakers...), but he's right about the Cylinders, they have a lower "excitation" rate in my book, I dont' know what it's actually called, but they don't have the standingwave problem that a square box does (you can eliminate that almost entirely by using differently angled panels specifically designed...too expensive)...