[DSlayerZX]

Yeah, final is coming, and I am currently studying Japanese 10A

For anyone that know Japanese fairly well... I have a question to ask

is there a pattern to how a number is pronounce when counting objects?

For example, for one

sometimes is i chi sometimes is i tsu(small)
for 4 yo and yo, and six is lo ku , and sometimes is lo tsu(small)
after looking at lover 15 counting words, I can't tell why they have to be pronounce differently.

also, sometimes different counter pronounce differently under different number too....for example... minutes, hun and pun.... what determine them to be pronounce differently?

any help would be appreciated .... my brain is as confuse as hell trying to memorize each different set of pronunciation

 

[dj_mocok]

It's the Japanese revenge for English speakers for having different pronunciation rules for certain words.

Sorry for not much help, but all I know is 3000 is san jen sen not san sen.

 

[Crikey]

Well for minutes, it just is like that, there doesn't seem to be any pattern between hun and pun, at least that is how I see it. Granted I am not a native japanese speaker and am learning as well.

I have to agree with the op though, the japanese numbering system is way too complicated. For basic numbers there's already 2 ways of pronunciation, 1 is influenced/loaned from chinese, the other is the original japanese pronunciation. Then there are special suffixes you have to put in depending on whether you refer to a person, an object, weight etc.

I can only wish people good luck in learning japanese. It is complicated since you are also learning chinese on the side with kanji. I got it easier since I already know chinese

 

[tk3]

The different counting systems simply have different applications.
You should learn when to use which by learning and experience.

For most (Chinese reading) it´s just a matter of adding the number + suffix and remembering the irregular ones (like いっぽん、にほん、さんぼん etc), for the Japanese version it´s mostly the same, but with the Japanese counting system.

It´s really a matter of practicing a lot (especially the irregular ones) and remembering when to use what.

 

[Currawong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSlayerZX /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah, final is coming, and I am currently studying Japanese 10A For anyone that know Japanese fairly well... I have a question to ask is there a pattern to how a number is pronounce when counting objects? For example, for one sometimes is i chi sometimes is i tsu(small) for 4 yo and yo, and six is lo ku , and sometimes is lo tsu(small) after looking at lover 15 counting words, I can't tell why they have to be pronounce differently. also, sometimes different counter pronounce differently under different number too....for example... minutes, hun and pun.... what determine them to be pronounce differently? any help would be appreciated .... my brain is as confuse as hell trying to memorize each different set of pronunciation

I'm not sure what you're referring to. Regular numbers to 10 are:

ichi, ni, san, shi (or yon), go, roku, nana (or shichi), hachi, kyu, jyu

The basic Chinese-originating numbers are:

hitotsu, futatsu, mittsu, yottsu, itsutsu, muttsu, nanatsu, yattsu, kokonotsu, to.

When counting objects, the counting method very much depends on the kind of object. For example, flat objects: ichi mai, ni mai, etc. which use the first style of counting. Counting people is odd though: hitori, futari for 1 and 2 people respectively, then it switches to san nin, yon nin, etc. The kanji for "ri" and "nin" are the same, but using a different pronunciation.

When counting hundreds, hyaku, the sounds change as you go up, maybe because it just sounds better: hyaku, ni hyaku, san byaku, yon hyaku, go hyaku, ro-ppyaku etc. If you think that's confusing, try explaining to Japanese kids why twenty, thirty and fifty aren't two-ty, three-ty and five-ty respectively. Then explain why teens are backwards in English, eg: fourteen instead of tentyfour (no that isn't a misspelling).

The issue is just getting used to Japanese being different, not just grammatically but conceptually. What I suggest to people studying English is what I do myself - I don't try and mentally translate, I just have to think in Japanese when I speak it.

 

[DSlayerZX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif The issue is just getting used to Japanese being different, not just grammatically but conceptually. What I suggest to people studying English is what I do myself - I don't try and mentally translate, I just have to think in Japanese when I speak it.

well... it took me three whole years to be able to start thinking in English.... I don't expect any difference in my progress of learning Japanese.

but so far..... I just notice that when using counting words that can be describing a person in Chinese, the number usually use I tsu, yo, lo tsu, instead of i chi, yoh, lo ku. but so far... that's all I have found...

anyway, off to study again.

 

[Crikey]

Actually, the chinese-originating sounds are:
ichi, ni, san, shi, go, roku, shichi, hachi, kyu, jyu.
Which sound similar when you say it in chinese. The japanese substituted in yon for shi and nana for shichi in everyday numbering because the pronunciations sound too much like death (which also occurs in chinese).

The original japanese ones are:
hitotsu, futatsu, mittsu, yottsu, itsutsu, muttsu, nanatsu, yattsu, kokonotsu, to.

Edit: I agree with Currawong that every language has its own nuances and way to communicating across an idea. For example, grammar is totally different when compared between english, chinese and japanese. There isn't really a one-to-one translation for every term or sentence. Hence I guess why there's the term "lost in translation". So you have to have a different mindset when approaching