[TheAttorney]

Quote:

.....Using +6dB does make quite a difference to the SQ.

 
At the risk of sounding like a Sound Scientist

....
 
With the different sensitivities of the headphones, the amps, the amp inputs, the +6db switch, all conspiring to ensure that each listen was at a different volume, was there any time you guys were confident you were comparing anything with anything at exactly the the same volume? By using a db meter for example.
 
For me, volume mismatch is the arch enemy of comparison tests, particularly in an A/B rapid(ish) switch situation. So if the +6db option is as the name implies (6db extra gain) then of course it's going to sound more dynamic etc. It's 6db louder!
 
I'm not saying that informal comparisons don't have their place (I do it all the time). Just that in this case, the scope for misinterpretation seems particularly high.

 

[mwilson]

^ I second the importance of matching volumes. And a SPL meter is very cheap.

 

[David1961]

I love my BHSE to which I'm sure Ian does his LL. When we both listened to our amps at my place we were not trying to prove whether one amp was better than the other, all we were doing was to try both amps together. SQ wise I'm sure any listener would be happy with either, but when it comes to looks and build quality, IMO that's a different matter.

 

[IanG]

Quote:

 
At the risk of sounding like a Sound Scientist

....
 
With the different sensitivities of the headphones, the amps, the amp inputs, the +6db switch, all conspiring to ensure that each listen was at a different volume, was there any time you guys were confident you were comparing anything with anything at exactly the the same volume? By using a db meter for example.
 
For me, volume mismatch is the arch enemy of comparison tests, particularly in an A/B rapid(ish) switch situation. So if the +6db option is as the name implies (6db extra gain) then of course it's going to sound more dynamic etc. It's 6db louder!
 
I'm not saying that informal comparisons don't have their place (I do it all the time). Just that in this case, the scope for misinterpretation seems particularly high.

I agree entirely.
 
The possibility of getting a precise volume match without a quality db meter with headphone application is virtually zero.
 
And the possibility of achieving unbiassed sighted or unsighted comparisons is an even lower probability.
 
The 009s, whether with BHSE or LL, were excellent and, even sighted and one driven XLR and one driven RCA, I could not tell the amplifiers apart. My impression from our listening comparisons was that David could not tell either. And that was via sighted conditions where there were compromises on connection type/gain and almost certainly on volume levels. Furthermore, David's BHSE was fed from mains through a conditioner whereas my LL was fed from mains direct from the wall socket. Opinions on the advantages or otherwise of such conditioners lead to pages of debate on other forums.
 
What's more, in my opinion, if one trys to listen for minute sound difference details, then that strains the listening enjoyment and the results have real validity only if done double-blind with multiple repeats. Something which I think is not achievable in a conventional domestic environment.
 
Even if it were, and that would also require some remarkably well-trained ears, it would not change David's or my visual preferences.
 
Indeed, David would not want to get a statistically significant double blind listening test result whereby he preferred the LL on sound quality grounds, however minor, because it would then conflict with his overwhelming preference for the BHSE based on other criteria. David loves the looks of his BHSE and the build quality. He likes the fact that is is valved and has no issue with it being in two boxes.
 
Equally, I would not want to get a statistically significant double blind listening test result whereby I preferred the BHSE on sound quality grounds, however minor, because it would then conflict with my overwhelming preference for the LL based on other criteria. I love the looks of my LL and the build quality, for me, is fine. I like the fact that it is solid state and in one box.

 

[David1961]

If there was a blind test between the LL & BHSE, I don't think anyone would be able to say which one was which, unless they'd had a lot of experience with them, both sound excellent. It's true I do like tubes amps because with getting other tubes the SQ can be changed slightly, in fact I have a quad of SED EL34's that I'm trying once I have a multimeter, which with the help of Justin doing that video I feel confident of doing it myself. I'd just like to point out that when Ian brought his LL & 007's, we weren't doing a test between the two amps, we just wanted to hear what they were like together and also what Ian's 007's was like with them both. I believe some headfiers would like use to do a proper test between the two and I did leave Ian a phone message about that, but to be perfectly honest doing a test would not achieve anything, at least not for me and Ian because we're happy with the amps we have.

 

[mwilson]

Of course one could tell them apart. They're amps after all. 
 
 
Quote:

If there was a blind test between the LL & BHSE, I don't think anyone would be able to say which one was which, unless they'd had a lot of experience with them, both sound excellent.

 

[joeyjojo]

Quote:

Of course one could tell them apart. They're amps after all. 
 
 

 
So these two head-fiers write long and thoughtful posts on how the amps are both transparent and probably impossible to tell apart by ear, they muse a bit on how they wouldn't even want one to be superior aurally as it would clash with their aesthetic preferences, and you write a one-line useless post contradicting them both? Thanks very much.
 
Thanks David1961 and IanG for your honest and useful impressions.

 

[mwilson]

Oh, you're quite welcome. Let me rephrase: if one cannot tell the difference between two amplifiers, it's time to lay off the kool aid.
 
Edit: While I'm at it, allow me to also clarify that I'm not talking about which one is better, if at all, or David and Ian's preferences concerning looks. I am strictly referring to one's ability to tell amps apart. 
 
Quote:

 
So these two head-fiers write long and thoughtful posts on how the amps are both transparent and probably impossible to tell apart by ear, they muse a bit on how they wouldn't even want one to be superior aurally as it would clash with their aesthetic preferences, and you write a one-line useless post contradicting them both? Thanks very much.
 
Thanks David1961 and IanG for your honest and useful impressions.

 

[MorbidToaster]

Why not just use a decent Line Router to do your A/B tests?

 

[David1961]

At the end of the day, my amp is the BHSE and I'm immensely happy with it in every way. I've now said all I want to say about the LL which I know was not very knowledgeable.

 

[justin w.]

Quote:

Why not just use a decent Line Router to do your A/B tests?

 
not sure what a Line Router is, but a carefully designed A/B switch box for comparing electrostatic amps wouldnt be a bad idea.  You'd need a switch rated for at least 1000V and 5 poles.  something like that could be hard to find so using high voltage relays might work better.

 

[sridhar3]

Quote:

Why not just use a decent Line Router to do your A/B tests?

 
Quote:

not sure what a Line Router is, but a carefully designed A/B switch box for comparing electrostatic amps wouldnt be a bad idea.  You'd need a switch rated for at least 1000V and 5 poles.  something like that could be hard to find so using high voltage relays might work better.

 
He means an XLR or RCA switchbox that allows one source to output to two different amps.  Something like the ones made by Mapletree Audio Design (LR1, LR1 Pro), Manley Skipjack, Goldpoint I/O switching controls, etc.

 

[MorbidToaster]

What he said. 
 
I've got a 3 in 2 out Line Router on order from Lloyd at Mapletree right now. Really looking forward to doing some proper A/B with it.
 
Quote:

 
 
He means an XLR or RCA switchbox that allows one source to output to two different amps.  Something like the ones made by Mapletree Audio Design (LR1, LR1 Pro), Manley Skipjack, Goldpoint I/O switching controls, etc.

 

[mwilson]

I have an old Linksys router, will that work? 

 

[MorbidToaster]

Yes.
 
Quote:

I have an old Linksys router, will that work?