[AlanY]

Discussing this topic is like pornography... people seem to have an unlimited appetite for it.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanY Discussing this topic is like pornography... people seem to have an unlimited appetite for it.

Good analogy.

Also like a really bad car crash. You don't want to look, but you just can't help yourself.

 

[smeggy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS Good analogy. Also like a really bad car crash. You don't want to look, but you just can't help yourself.

A real crash produces tangible results, you're not just thinking you see it

 

[David Mitchell]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch Cardas cabling in general is very high quality and (to my ears) neutral sounding, so if it's not outside your budget you won't go wrong getting a Cardas headphone replacement cable... providing it's something you want. I've been fine with the stock cable myself, as I never disliked the sound of it.

Funny I should see this tonight: I bought a Cardas cable for my Sennheiser HD-580 a couple of years ago, but hadn't been using it because it was in an area with high risk for being run over by chairs. Lately I've been trying to figure out what I could sell, and the cable came to mind. Tonight I brought it up to the office, cleaned it, hooked it up, and was really surprised by the difference. Sure, I could be fooling myself, but if this is what it takes to make my brain hear better, I think I can live with it!

I have a weak spot for measurements and I don't really understand why there do seem to be differences. I am regularly surprised when I upgrade something and find more to hear.

 

[NotJeffBuckley]

Differing cable gauges and lengths can reliably alter the frequency response across the spectrum by changing the nominal resistance and inductance, be it Radioshack or Zu or Cardas or...

 

[monkuboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by monkuboy True, people get tired of it but I bet this thread will get a lot of responses! (LOL)

See, I told you so!!

 

[Patrick82]

Skeptics should really read this: http://www.stereotimes.com/comm041805.shtm

The more I do A/B-ing the less differences I hear, because you don't listen to the music with the same state of mind!
When I first started this "sport" I couldn't hear a difference between Audigy2 and EMU0404 soundcards, they sounded exactly the same and it was definitely not worth the upgrade! But after some experience and training everything became clearer, and subtle differences started sounding like night and day. Now 18 months later a $10k cable is definitely worth it for me.
IMO, a skeptic that even suggests DBT is the one that's wrong, it just doesn't work. Especially if the skeptic has no interest in music or perfection at all!

 

[NotJeffBuckley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 Skeptics should really read this: http://www.stereotimes.com/comm041805.shtm The more I do A/B-ing the less differences I hear, because you don't listen to the music with the same state of mind! When I first started this "sport" I couldn't hear a difference between Audigy2 and EMU0404 soundcards, they sounded exactly the same and it was definitely not worth the upgrade! But after some experience and training everything became clearer, and subtle differences started sounding like night and day. Now 18 months later a $10k cable is definitely worth it for me. IMO, a skeptic that even suggests DBT is the one that's wrong, it just doesn't work. Especially if the skeptic has no interest in music or perfection at all!

That is the least convincing, most obviously biased article ever. "The Placebo Effect doesn't exist!" is absolutely ridiculous, with countless medical (and other) studies showing otherwise. Further, calling into question the methodology of DBT is grasping at straws that don't even exist. The source explains a lot, of course, but I'm surprised you saw fit to post it given its near-total lack of validity.

Edit: It's your money, spend it however you wish, but don't call into question the motives of people with nothing to lose by suggesting you need more evidence than, oh, *absolutely none* before laying down $10,000.

 

[AlanY]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 The more I do A/B-ing the less differences I hear

Funny how that works.

 

[Patrick82]

When a skeptic listens to an audio system, does it sound like real life to him? If it does, then of course cables will make no difference at all. This might also be the reason why so many prefer Sennheiser in this forum.

For me, K501 sounds horrible and not close to real life at all, and HD590 is much worse. However, K501 used to sound very good when I first got them. But upgrading to K1000 changed that after only a month, K1000 is closer to real life than HD590 is to K501. Between K501 and K1000 there's a large gap.

People have different ears, experience, training and intelligence. They also have different tastes in music where an improvement in gear is harder to detect.
I like trance music so an increase in speed is what I'm after, Nordost Valhalla cables gave that. They were the best upgrade I ever did to my system. They felt way underpriced for the performance I got from them, it felt like a steal. But for others they are way overpriced. I did some A/B-ing with lesser gear (K501) and it was surprisingly a big difference in speed and clarity. However, if I would do the comparison with other music genres I doubt I would hear a difference big enough to be worth the 30 times bigger price.

I'm a skeptic and very cheap/poor. Would I really keep buying more cables if there wasn't an improvement big enough that it's worth it? All the skeptics are really missing out on how good an audio system can sound, I made a gamble and found the truth. Unfortunately, most skeptics will never change, perhaps because they are afraid of the truth.
I'm a skeptic but I'm not afraid to be proven wrong. With every upgrade I made to my system I was proven wrong, every time! That's why I continued. This can of course be placebo, but it's highly unlikely since many others reported the same improvements as I did, and I'm not a placebo type of guy.

If so many people report the same improvements then how does a skeptic react, does he think they are all lying? Or coincidence? Unfortunately, humans try to find a logical reason other than themselves being wrong, that's why a conflict starts.
Everything I do is like a "before and after" picture, and I haven't seen the after picture yet.

 

[shplorgh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 I'm a skeptic and very cheap/poor. Would I really keep buying more cables if there wasn't an improvement big enough that it's worth it?

Sorry, I couldn't stop laughing when I read that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 Everything I do is like a "before and after" picture, and I haven't seen the after picture yet.

And you never will. What you consider to be "accurate" means nothing, you've never heard the performance you're listening to.

 

[CookieFactory]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrith I think part of the problem with audiophiles accepting double-blind tests is that the testing methodology is inherently flawed. I can't tell you how many times I've A/B'd two items and did not hear a difference. So I leave them both hooked up for awhile and eventually, sometimes weeks later, I hear something that sounds different than I remembered it sounding. I then A/B again with that material, and I can hear the difference. The key is finding the right material to A/B test with, and most A/B tests are conducted in such a way that you are very likely to not find many differences between the items in question, even though there may well be differences.

If you're using your second paragraph to back up the contention in your first, just FYI, you didn't do a double blind test. However the methodology you did use, is inherently flawed.

 

[AlanY]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 I like trance music so an increase in speed is what I'm after, Nordost Valhalla cables gave that. They were the best upgrade I ever did to my system. They felt way underpriced for the performance I got from them, it felt like a steal.

Oh, those Valhallas are a steal all right.
(Who's doing the stealing is another question.

)

Seriously, there was a very good recent test of the Vahallas against generic power cords at the Bay Area Audio Society and no discernable difference between the two was found:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...s-12-2004.html

 

[Patrick82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hungrych Quote: Originally Posted by Patrick82 Everything I do is like a "before and after" picture, and I haven't seen the after picture yet. And you never will. What you consider to be "accurate" means nothing, you've never heard the performance you're listening to.

I wasn't talking about audio, I was talking about existence. What I meant was that nobody should be ashamed if they do something wrong, as long as they accept it and learn from it. Like with skeptics.
I'm an open minded skeptic, I don't believe something until it makes sense to me, and I definitely don't upgrade my system if I don't know how it works first! I built my system based on specs and found synergy, actually I just wanted more speed and everything else took care of itself.

 

[Patrick82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanY Oh, those Valhallas are a steal all right. (Who's doing the stealing is another question. ) Seriously, there was a very good recent test of the Vahallas against generic power cords at the Bay Area Audio Society and no discernable difference between the two was found: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...s-12-2004.html

I saw that before I bought my cables, it just made me laugh. It's like in the review where the editor comes in and listens to the cables in an unfamiliar system.
The system has to grow on you, it's amazing how subtle differences a human can detect when he has accustomed to a sound for a long period of time.
Going to another audio system is like changing to another species. For example a monkey, would you notice a difference between a female or male monkey? No, not until you have enough experience!

Quote:

I could indeed hear differences between different AC power cords, but they were very subtle. When I told Jason what I heard, he agreed and explained in more detail. What was interesting was that the generic $3 AC cord came in a tie for second place with the Nordost Vishnu, and ahead of another expensive AC power cord. The difference was one of small transients at the beginning edge of such things as guitar plucks.

After reading that review many times I decided to gamble and buy the Vishnus, and there was a noticeable improvement. Then I upgraded to Valhalla and got shocked, then I bought another Valhalla and got more shocked, and so it continued with every power conditioning upgrade I did, including my latest one (MultiWave II and MultiWave II+) which gave so much speed and controlled bass that it gives me a headache, and I didn't even expect an improvement in speed, only in clarity. (Skeptic: Subconscious placebo that gives me a headache?)

I now use the Vishnus with my HD590 TV rig, and there's only a medium big improvement. But the highs don't sound too bad with these headphones. BTW, DAC1 + Nordost Vishnu is a great match. I didn't think HD590 was capable of this much transparency and body.


I certainly learned my lesson. To only trust experienced reviewers! If I had only listened to the skeptics I would still be sitting here with Audigy2 + HD590 and missing out everything this hobby has to offer. I really thought an amplifier didn't improve the sound because it didn't make sense to me at that time. But it all makes sense now.