[gsferrari]

Date : December 1st 2004
Location : Sarasota Florida
Meet Attendees : mikeg and gsferrari

Equipment that we tested :

* Singlepower Supra SDS
* Sonic T-Amp
* ASL AQ1005DT poweramp
* Denon 2900 modded source
* AKG K1000
* Sony MDR R10
* Grado RS-1
* Gilmore V2 BE (Bitchin Edition

)


Introduction :

This meet was a rush affair. I wanted to sample mikeg's new setup and he wanted to show off

so he invited me over after I basically invited myself and it didnt take too much persuasion to get me to agree

So I drive down to Sarasota. En-Route to mikeg's I stop by agile_one's place of work to rob him of some more of his equipment. This time I walked away with a Monster power conditioner.

After wriggling through some absurd interstate traffic...really bad traffic...like they were having a "bad driver convention" or something...

Somewhere along the way, between exits 207 and 205 on I-75, I get stuck behind an old lady driving one of the slowest cars in the world!!

I am back home after the meet but I think she is still somewhere between exits 207 and 205

So I show up at mikeg's place with a LOT less gear than I normally haul (most of my gear is in Erie, PA where I will be moving in about 2 weeks time) and we exchange the usual pleasantries before moving into the listening room.

Nothing prepared me for what I saw....

Please note that mikeg and I are used to having differences in opinion so our friendly relationship does not affect how I evaluate his gear and the vice is the versa...

Singlepower Supra SDS :

First impressions - Holy Schmoly! This thing must weigh a ton...jeeeeez!! It could probably sink a ship!! It could crush anything placed under it!! The two towers of the audio world!!

Second Take - This is too big for a headphone amp. I mean...how ridiculous are people getting that their headphone amplifiers are bigger and more powerful than speaker power amps and dedicated multi-channel receivers?

Isnt there a limit to "excess" ? When I first saw the amp I thought it was beautiful and I still do. But the fact that it is just absurdly big puts me off. Maybe I have a prejudice against headphone amps being larger and more outrageous than even some of the best speaker amps but hey...This one could power a small car

SONY R-10 :

Simply gorgeous. Are they worth $3500.00 ? Not to me...sonically they dont justify the price. I think $800.00 is what this headphone can command for sonics, cosmetics etc. But then again - I am someone who feels that the Senn HD-650 shouldnt cost more than $120.00 and the K1000 shouldnt cost more than $150.00

I think manufacturers are making a sizeable profit and resellers are making an even bigger profit.

But people are willing to pay and if thats what the market wants - thats what it gets. I have no issues with the R10 being in its current price-range but I wouldnt pay more than $800 for one.


Denon 2900 Modified :

When I saw the player I liked the looks and the build quality. Denon truly makes some impressive stuff. Buttons on the facia are responsive and give you a positive feel when you press them. Sony on the other hand still havent learnt how to make control panel buttons that work.

The mods themselves appear to be rather crudely done on the outside. The top of the player looks pretty wrecked and a LOT of the functionality is gone in the search for "better audio fidelity". Since I am the sort of person who prefers functionality over hyper-critical-detailed-listening, I would leave such a source unmodded or find another source that does a good job sonically, retains all functionality and performs better than the Denon 2900 sonically. I think this source costs close to $4000.00 after modifications. In my opinion, and judging from my listening impressions at this micro meet, this is not how I would choose to spend my money. But then again - mikeg is a VERY VERY demanding and critical listener with a good ear (more on this later) and he has done everything a man can do to put together a single system that is synergistic and top of the line.

Well - he has succeeded

ASL AQ1005DT :

This poweramp failed to impress me and I have listened to it on several occasions. Cosmetically it is impressive with the usual "over the top" chinese implementation. Nice amp if you can snag one for a good price.

AKG K-1000 :

One of my favorite headphones. This is truly one of the top performing headphones and there are times when I think it could well be the best headphone of all...including the venerated R10 etc. The K1000 is also priced well (although the prices just went up) and it is versatile and well made to boot.

Grado RS-1 :

Another good headphone. But this one is not worth $600.00 or whatever...more like $200.00

Pretty much the best headphone in the Grado lineup...bested by the PS-1 for bass but more detailed than the PS-1. If I had to choose and if I had $1500.00 - I would get the RS-1

The PS-1 is nowhere near worth the money people are paying for them.

Gilmore V2 BE :

Basically a Gilmore V2 with upgraded PSU parts, stepped attenuator, off-the-board transformer, single input, loop out and a single headphone jack - all stuffed into a cool aluminum case. Brilliant sounding amp and an excellent price (PM for details).




The tests and my impressions :

Test One :

Headphones - AKG K1000 with Stephan Audio Equinox K1000 Cable
Source - Denon 2900
Amp - ASL AQ1005DT ($1300.00)
Pre-Amp - Singlepower Supra SDS ($5500.00)
Total = $6800

This was compared with the same headphone + source but -

AKG K1000 with Stock AKG cable
Amp - Sonic T-Amp ($30.00 + $20.00 for PSU = $50.00)

Prices are estimates and cost of headphones, cables, source is not included.


This test proved to be a shocker!!

I volunteered to go first with a DBT and mikeg did the switching behind my back. I was able to pick out the more "refined" sound that had better imaging, focus and soundstage. This amp (didnt know which one...blind see

) was clearer than the other one which sounded smudged. It also had the bass in the right places while the other one was a little less controlled.

The amp I picked as the better amp turned out to be the $50.00 sonic T-Amp setup

Now I was running scared. I was afraid I would get kicked out of the house by my gracious host. He appeared to be quite ok with the results and I knew he was thinking inside his head "This gsferrari dude needs some major surgery of the brain!!!"

How could a $50.00 setup POSSIBLY compare with a $6800.00 setup which should theoretically wipe the floor clean!!!

Im not finished yet...

Towards the end of the meet mikeg decided that he had to have a go on the same test and this time I did the switching. We went on for some time before he picked a winner.

He picked the $50.00 setup with the Sonic T-Amp

OMG!!!

More coming up shortly...

 

[gsferrari]

Test #2 :


Headphones : Sony R10
Source : Denon 2900 Modded
Amps : Singlepower Supra SDS / Gilmore v2 BE


For those of you with the necessary financial clout - the R10 is a worthy investment because there will always be someone to buy it at a good price. I have already said my piece on what I think its real world value should be...but its not what I suggested...so I guess I need to ****

LOL



First up : R10 + Supra SDS :

Bass is a bit on the shy side. The R-10's havent really struck me as bass-shy headphones because they are very accurate on showing off the bass when it exists. I call the amp in this case and for some strange reason - those HUGE caps dont seem to be doing their job as far as improving the bass is concerned. Compared to the MAESTRO ZR I also feel that the overall sound is a bit smudged and lacking in detail as well.

To be honest...I am a little underwhelmed with this audition. Perhaps more burn-in is required? mikeg specifically told me he hadnt run too many hours on the setup so I hope things will change for the better as time progresses. Tube amps are notoriously slow to get up to their best...often takes years of loving usage. But they keep getting better. I am not familiar with burn-in changes on the R-10 and perhaps it also requires a LOT of time.

The source is top notch. Although I wouldnt pay the kind of money it takes to get to this level...I am impressed with the source on a sonic basis and "quality" (denon quality...not talking about the mods here...).

I played a few trance tracks, classical music etc. and found that this particular setup performs VERY well with complex classical music and vocals. It is also more laid back (Senn HD-650 owners may not wanna consider the SDS...a more detailed MPX3 is probably their best bet - laid back headphones + laid back amp = zzzzzz zzzzz zzzz

)

The setup lacks pRat! Snap! whatever you wanna call it. It is NOT in your face but the imaging with classical instruments is brilliant. A convincing image of the stage with artistes is potrayed.



Next Up : R10 + Gilmore V2 BE :

I realized that I had mixed up L and R channels when I did some AB testing

LOL Time to break out the soldering iron for some quick repairs.

This combo is aggressive to say the least. It is not offensive or gritty...hyper-detailed is probably a good term. You can hear details that are simply sponged over in the supra setup. Pages turning (orchestral notes), artistes moving their notes stand around, violonists prepping their "blades" ?? before the climax...

It also does bass a WHOLE lot better than the Supra. sacdlover always says that the V2 is bass shy. I disagree and I am sure mikeg will also disagree. If he thinks the V2 is bass shy then the Supra is "NO - BASS".
The V2 brought out deep tremors that were completely missing with the Supra. Everything was tight and hard hitting...totally pRat and totally Snap!!!

BUT - imaging was completely off. No proper definition to the stage or artist locations...and I compared this amp to a few others and thought it did this task pretty well. The Supra is ahead as far as "realistic tone and soundstage" is concerned.

More on this and other topics tomorrow...

Super sleepy from all the driving

 

[Edwood]

Uh oh.

The little Sonic Impact is officially the new FOTM.

I really have to try onw now for fun. And if someone can figure out how to bridge them mono, Sonic Impact madness!

-Ed

 

[gsferrari]

After all testing, listening etc. was done and when we were wrapping up, mikeg presented me with a brand spanking new Sonic Impact T-Amp

Now all I need is the $20.00 power supply and a K-1000


This amp is nuts...opens up so many possibilities for those who want the K1000 but are worried about the cost of amplifiers.

No need to worry anymore.

Thank you mikeg for having me in your home, allowing me to listen to your excellent audio equipment and for discussing my future/career options. It is with great eagerness that I look forward to meeting you in person and I could spend hours discussing current affairs, history and culture.

And the Pizza was excellent

I hadn't eaten all morning (woke up late as usual and had to rush...did 80mph on all 70mph zones

) and was quite famished by the time we had lunch.

 

[Thaddy]

Wow GS, very shocking results indeed! Man you are a traveling machine, how your ears can go through that much critical listening after being in the car so much is beyond me, but hopefully you'll be able to teach me a thing or two at the Pittsburgh meet

 

[mikeg]

I really enjoyed getting together with Guru, and conducting these tests. Anyone interested in my detailed comments regarding our tests of the inexpensive (approx. $21) Portable T-Amp. for driving K1000 headphones, please see my Post #90 at the following thread:
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showt...0&page=4&pp=25

More later.

 

[lan]

The digital amp revolution is spreading like wild fire now. I think they are great. I'm not surprised if it did beat your tubed pre and power amp. But at this price it's insane. Makes you really wonder....

 

[mikeg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lan The digital amp revolution is spreading like wild fire now. I think they are great. I'm not surprised if it did beat your tubed pre and power amp. But at this price it's insane. Makes you really wonder....

Guru's and my conclusions were based solely on listening to a single recording; i.e., the DVD-Audio recording of "Buena Vista Social Club". Perhaps these amazing results will change when I compare these amps, using other kinds of music, such as classical orchestral music. Please stand by.

 

[flecom]

i have the little T-Amp with my K1k's and it is truly an impressive little device

im going to be building a balanced dynahi soon (like 35w of Class A lovin, hellllloooo heat)

i would like to A/B it with some other amps at the next south (really south like broward-dade or something) florida meet

 

[philodox]

Am I ever glad that I bought mine before this post went out... you're not going to see any good deals on ebay for a while now that the T-Amp is FOTM.

 

[mikeg]

Our reason for getting together for this "micro-meet" was Guru's imminent departure from Florida, and therefore the need for him to hear the equipment before leaving.

Setting aside Guru's opinions regarding equipment dimensions, weights, and prices (i.e., opinions with which I don't necessarily agree), I do agree with some of his other conclusions. Guru has considerable experience with the assortment of headphone equipment that interests us, his hearing is accute, his listening skills are substantial, and his opinions are therefore of considerable interest to me.

I agree with Guru's summary of the tests (which were done with only a single recording), in which we compared the performance of the inexpensive Portable T-Amp., with that of a far more expensive amp., for driving the K1000. I also agree with his conclusions that his Gilmore V2 amp. produces a good sound at a reasonable price, but that the SinglePower SDS amp. is the superior of the two with regard to "realistic tone and soundstage".

I do have some disagreements with Guru's conclusions, however. I don't agree that the SDS amp is bass shy. My listening experience with this amp. shows that it reproduces beautifully any and all orchestral and instrument bass sounds that are present in the recording that's being played. The point is that IMO the SinglePower SDS amp. does not artificially exaggerate bass sounds in order to impress. It just reporduces accurately the bass that's there. But, I can't say the same with regard to the Gilmore V2 amp. IMO it produces a somewhat artificial and exaggerated bass sound. Although this may be desirable for non-classical music, IMO the V2's exaggerated bass detracts from the reproduction of classical orchestral and solo instrumental classical music. Although I could say more regarding Guru's and my contrasting views of the relative performance of these two amps, as well as other constraints that Guru attributes to the SDS amp., suffice it to say that I disagree with these assessments by Guru. I do feel, however, that although Guru's Gilmore V2 amp. produces a substantially less refined sound that the SinglePower SDS amp., when playing classical orchestral and solo-instrumental classical music, it does provides a really good sound at a reasonable price.

Guru's assessment of my Denon 2900 source is that it is "top notch", but that it "looks pretty wrecked, and a lot of the functionality is gone in the search for better audio fidelity". A bit of clarification is needed. This unit is a Denon 2900, which was modified by John Tucker of eXemplar Audio. It's the same unit that's owned by Doug (i.e., ServinginEcuador), and it provides beautiful highly refined musical reproduction. Guru's assessment that it "looks pretty wrecked" is due to the fact that the Denon logo (i.e., tag) is missing from the upper left corner of the player's face plate. Although I'm not sure why this tag is missing (i.e., whether it inadvertently fell off, or whether John Tucker removed it because the Denon is now a modified unit), I never noticed the missing tag. In all other respects, the cosmetic appearance of the unit is fine. As for Guru's conclusion regarding diminished functionatiliy in the interest of audio fidelity, it's based solely on my limited understanding of the technical consequences of the modifications. What I told Guru was that many of the surround sound capablities of my modded Dennon 2900 may have been compromised as a consequence of the modifications. Whether this information is correct, or not, is beyond my knowledge or interest, since I only use this machine to listen to 2-channel stereo music. Whether these functions are still there, or have been eliminated, is information that I don't know or care about. My communication of potentially erroneous information to Guru, and his incorporation of it in this thread, IMO illustrated the adage of "the blind leading the blind".

In any event, this micro-meet was a useful and satisfying experience, and I look forward to holding a similar mini-meet in January.

 

[strid3r]

A question about the T-Amp, does it come with an AC adapter? And what is the $20 power supply that you were referring to gsferrari?

 

[mikeg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by strid3r A question about the T-Amp, does it come with an AC adapter? And what is the $20 power supply that you were referring to gsferrari?

It does not come with an AC adapter.

 

[agile_one]

Quote:

Originally Posted by strid3r A question about the T-Amp, does it come with an AC adapter? And what is the $20 power supply that you were referring to gsferrari?

As mikeg already pointed out, the T-Amp does not come with the AC adapter.

It WILL run on 8 AA batteries however, although I personally have not tried that.

This thread discusses some PSU's that some of us have used with success.

 

[gsferrari]

I am happy that mikeg and I are able to have differences in opinion and still remain good friends. This is a testament to his maturity and ability to listen to both sides of the argument before saying his piece. I am learning to be this way by observing amazing people like mikeg, agile one, wmcmanus, rsaavedr, tyrion and all the headfiers I have met personally. I am yet to meet a "bad" headfiers. They are all awesome people and I am pround to have known each and every one of them.

The Gilmore V2 is strongly projected as a "gutless" amplifier by sacdlover. I tend to agree that the bass of the V2 is a bit subdued compared to some other amps that I have heard - it is still quite tight and accurate on the bass without any unnecessary emphasis. The SDS was still weaker on the bass and I am surprised how sacdlover was able to praise the bass of the Supra SDS amplifiers when the bass of the V2, which is clearly better in the bass spectrum, was found inadequate

Anyway...Regarding fidelity - the SDS is melted chocolate...the gilmore is Nestle Crunch

There is a definite grittiness to the sound of the gilmore in comparison and I was amazed because the Gilmore, before the meet, to my ears, was a pretty darn good amp. I sold several other amps to make way for the V2 after hearing it.

I think I am a tube guy for ever - no matter how hard i try to escape from the tube audio world

The mods on the Denon are obviously aimed at squeezing out every last ounce of performance. But I am a bit concerned that there has not been adequate attention to cosmetics on such an expensive mod. It may not mean much to mikeg but if I had received a source like this after the mods with haphazard holes (no rounding of the drilled edges...still quite razor sharp), missing DENON tags...I would be pretty mad regardless of the sound.

I am still in awe of the sound. mikeg's setup will suit the Grado lineup well..I can imagine a PS1 fitting in quite easily because of how controlled the bass response is. Yes...I think mikeg will find that a PS1 or HP1 will offer substantially better sound over the RS1 in his current setup.

Golly!!!