..source that sound smooth / analoguish .. ? something really good out there ?
Aug 9, 2005 at 6:47 PM Post #46 of 85
Quote:

Originally Posted by newmanoc
Well, actually it seems to me a large number of us who participate on this site own speakers as well as headphones. This is probably particularly true of those who lurk around the dedicated source forum. I for one don't think the subject irrelevent or inappropriate for head-fi, and it is the first time I've seen someone suggest it is. I simply think you are off base on this one.


Perhaps I wasn't clear, or perhaps I overstated the case to make a point. In any event, I don't mean to suggest speakers are entirely irrelevant per se, but to say to those of us who have headphone-only systems that we are wasting our time changing cables when we should be worrying about our speakers and room reflections misses the point, especially when some of the previous threads that have dealt with these precise issues have been threads where the topic that started the thread was clearly related only to the interaction of various sources and headphones.
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Aug 9, 2005 at 6:49 PM Post #47 of 85
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aman
Ridicule!

This website is made up of audiophiles, not "headphiles". The veterans here all have speaker rigs, and the people here who don't have speaker rigs only don't because of either space limitations or budget issues. While there are a select few who prefer the sound of headphones, most here would say that they'd rather have a 10,000 dollar speaker setup than a 10,000 dollar headphone setup. Am I right? And, well, speakers are not a "difficult concept" or whatnot simply due to the fact that they have been in the consumer market far longer than headphones have. They act the same as headphones. I don't think that Steve's terrific posts can be discounted by the fact that this is a "headphone forum" and not a "speaker forum". It's all the same.



Disagree entirely, but respect your opinion.
 
Aug 9, 2005 at 6:59 PM Post #48 of 85
Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot
The things that many audiophiles take for granted, like a flat frequency response, are the things that *count*. Think about it... When a set of speakers is rated to +/- 3db, can you hear what 3db sounds like? Yes. You can hear it, I can hear it, my 85 year old mother can hear it. And +/- 3db is REALLY GOOD SPECS for speakers.

If you run a signal through a silver cable and compare the output on the other end to the output of copper zip cord, it isn't going to be anywhere near as great a difference as that. In fact, the frequency response problem is going to be easily several orders of magnitude greater.

Next, pull out the specs for your system. Look at the specs for your CD player and amp. Compare those to the specs for your speakers... Again... not even in the same ballpark.

Now, look at your room. Is it acoustically perfect? Is the sound that comes out of your speakers exactly the same as the sound you hear in the room? I bet there are very few here who can answer yes to that. What's the point of spending a boatload of money on a sound system only to put it in a room that thows the frequency response off as much as 20db?

So, why are people worrying about minute differences in cables and distortion levels in CDs that don't even come close to the levels in their speakers, when they could be spending their energy correcting problems that are clearly audible... with a little bit of simple equalization?

You tell me!



Okay, I will.
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I follow your argument, but it overlooks a key point. We are trying with audio to reproduce the original *music*. Minute deficiencies in source performance mean that parts of that musical message never make it into the audio chain. To the extremely sensitive human brain and ear, this is the equivalent of starting off 1 degree of course when you embark on a long, complicated journey - you never fully end up where you want to be, just some place in the vicinity.

Based on my experience listening, I find music reproduction far more compelling, far more musical, when these minute difficiencies are avoided, even if larger problems exist down stream. I repeat, a first rate source combined with merely good electronics and good speakers will be more moving, more involving and more satisfying than fliping the priorities around.

Now this is an observation (shared by multitudes) that shouldn't exist in your paradigm. Can I give a more detailed account of why this should be using objective measurements? Personally, I cannot, and perhaps no one can to your satisfaction. But the phenomenon exists. Focus on that, and not on your insistence that it shouldn't.

You have suggested that you can't hear this phenomenon. I am not convinced that this is true, because you don't seem as yet to have fully investigated it. Instead, from a theoretical position you dismiss it a priori. This is my objection.
 
Aug 9, 2005 at 7:07 PM Post #49 of 85
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS
Can't you say something like: "I think that a lot of people might be upgrading when the real problem is that they really don't have a defined goal for their system. Sometimes they may be trying to just get a "different" sound, instead of sound that is "correct." As a result, they may tire after a few months of listening to sound that might be colored in some fashion, which leads them to pursue improvements which just color the sound in a different way. I think if they would try to get the correct sound in the first place, and an equalizer, IMO, is the best way to do this, they would achieve correct sound and a sound that they like, at much lower cost."


That's exactly what I said!! Is there a Babelfish for this?

See ya
Steve
 
Aug 9, 2005 at 7:08 PM Post #50 of 85
Quote:

Originally Posted by newmanoc
Well, actually it seems to me a large number of us who participate on this site own speakers as well as headphones.


Headphones are just small speakers pushed up to your ears. They have all the same characteristics, except for the interaction with the room.

See ya
Steve
 
Aug 9, 2005 at 7:23 PM Post #53 of 85
Quote:

Originally Posted by clarke68
How do you balance a system using pink noise?


There are analyzers that read pink noise (each frequency with equal power across the spectrum) and give you feedback on which frequencies need boosting and which need cutting to balance it. The problem is that certain frequencies will mask other frequencies. Unless you isolate them and balance them on their own, they will affect the balance of the frequencies they mask. Also, what sounds balanced to an analyzer frequently will sound unbalanced to the ear. That's why I say that the best way to balance is by ear with a single frequency... or even better yet, the frequency and the first two upper harmonics in proper balance- that allows you to adjust with the fundamental and its two key harmonics in perfect balance.

It's interesting to listen to electronic music on a flat system. I heard a CD that I had heard many times before, and noticed on the balanced system, a gradual upward glissando was totally even. I had thought there was some sort of expressive portamento going on with changes in volume, but it turns out that the speakers were just making it sound like that as the tone rolled through the bumps and spikes in the response for each frequency.

See ya
Steve
 
Aug 9, 2005 at 7:24 PM Post #54 of 85
Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot
Headphones are just small speakers pushed up to your ears. They have all the same characteristics, except for the interaction with the room.



In your initial comments, you talked about the room throwing the frequency response off + or - 20 db. That sounds like a pretty big "except."
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I understand your point, though, and those of others re the similarily between speakers and headphones and agree that these arguments have some merit.
 
Aug 9, 2005 at 7:30 PM Post #55 of 85
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS
but to say to those of us who have headphone-only systems that we are wasting our time changing cables when we should be worrying about our speakers and room reflections misses the point


Headphones need EQing to bring them to flat too. A shift in frequency response as little as +/- 1db can wreak havok with the relationship of the fundamental to its harmonics. This kind of shifting in the upper frequencies is usually what makes acoustic instruments sound unnatural. Take a look at the frequency response graph of most headphones above 10k. That's where your harmonics for the key low-mid voices lies. The range of error might not be quite as wide as with speakers, but it's still wider by an order of magnitude over the error in response of a good amp or a good CD player.

You can run a test signal through your cans and balance them the exact same way you run a test signal through speakers.

See ya
Steve
 
Aug 9, 2005 at 7:55 PM Post #56 of 85
Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot
Headphones are just small speakers pushed up to your ears. They have all the same characteristics, except for the interaction with the room.


Yup...and that's one of the things I love most about headphones: you can (more or less) buy your coloration off the shelf, you don't have the hassles of dealing with room interactions which, in my 1940's-built house, are a complete pain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot
There are analyzers that read pink noise (each frequency with equal power across the spectrum) and give you feedback on which frequencies need boosting and which need cutting to balance it.


Sure...I know about spectrum analyzers. They're convenient for a quick check, but they still need to "hear" the room through a microphone which is likely to be colored itself.

Jazz mentioned he knew a better way to balance a room than the frequency sweep method you described, I'd just like to hear about it because I don't know of a better way...at least not one that uses pink noise.
 
Aug 9, 2005 at 7:56 PM Post #57 of 85
Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot
The things that many audiophiles take for granted, like a flat frequency response, are the things that *count*. Think about it... When a set of speakers is rated to +/- 3db, can you hear what 3db sounds like? Yes. You can hear it, I can hear it, my 85 year old mother can hear it. And +/- 3db is REALLY GOOD SPECS for speakers.

If you run a signal through a silver cable and compare the output on the other end to the output of copper zip cord, it isn't going to be anywhere near as great a difference as that. In fact, the frequency response problem is going to be easily several orders of magnitude greater.

Next, pull out the specs for your system. Look at the specs for your CD player and amp. Compare those to the specs for your speakers... Again... not even in the same ballpark.

Now, look at your room. Is it acoustically perfect? Is the sound that comes out of your speakers exactly the same as the sound you hear in the room? I bet there are very few here who can answer yes to that. What's the point of spending a boatload of money on a sound system only to put it in a room that throws the frequency response off as much as 20db?

So, why are people worrying about minute differences in cables and distortion levels in CDs that don't even come close to the levels in their speakers, when they could be spending their energy correcting problems that are clearly audible... with a little bit of simple equalization?



Flat frequency response: What does that mean with speakers? Well, a measuring curve as close as possible to a straight line, you might say. Indeed. And with a bit of effort that's even achievable, still with the premise: «as close as possible», i.e., something reminding rather on a straight line than a jagged curve. And how can it be achieved? Well, let's say by carefully choosing the drivers (low-resonant membranes) and carefully designing the crossover network taking care of phase and the driver's frequency band. And let's assume decent room acoustics and speaker placement. But don't forget one essential precondition: a smoothing function for the measurement. When you measure a real-life frequency response, you'll get something like this:

dgymcmp.gif


See the red curve! The white curve stands for the smoothed frequency response. Why smoothed at all? Well, the unsmoothed curve includes all room reflections causing interferences. And note that this red curve represents the sound waves finally reaching your eardrums. Anybody want to try to smooth these jags with an equalizer?
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A real-world equalizer can only smooth an already smoothed frequency-response measurement, but not a real-world frequency response.

Even if we're a bit generous and let the jags live, there's still the problem of direct and reflected sound. What's the goal of your equalizing? Do you want an even direct-sound frequency response (actually a legitimate goal, considering the sonic colors of the music instruments you may want to preserve) or do you want to have an even over-all frequency response, no matter if it consists of an uncontrollable and inhomogeneous mixture of direct and reflected sound? Not an easy decision! Because both approaches will inevitably lead to flawed listening results. The reflections actually shouldn't be there at all. They are an artificial coloration of the original recording. But at the same time the recording is in some way designed to be played in a room, maybe even an average living room, or a prepared listening room, certainly not in an anechoic chamber. A certain amount of reflections from different directions than the speakers themselves are wanted to simulate a real-world acoustic, not a free field. Imagine the sound of a cymbal in a very dry room with lots of carpet on the walls. That's not how a cymbal sounds in its natural environment -- a cymbal has an almost ball-shaped dispersion up to highest frequencies and consequently causes a lot of reflected sound from all directions.

But there's another problem: Particularly tweeters have problems with sound dispersion. There are a few exotic designs with nearly ball-shaped dispersion (some of them with other flaws resulting from this design goal), but common tweeters have quite arbitrary dispersion characteristics: the higher the frequency, the less dispersion. This feature makes for a distinct sonic characteristic. And of course the dispersion characteristics of the various tweeters vary in a wide range.

Then there are horn speakers. They pretend to «control» directivity, but in fact they just introduce a more or less arbitrary directivity with a lot of incoherence throughout the frequency spectrum. And they add coloration of a special kind to the original sound: inner reflections inside of the horns. The typical hollowness and (sometimes) squawkiness with strings so appreciated by classical lovers... They measure as massive decay in waterfall, but not necessarily in frequency-response plots. These colorations are not always that obvious in well designed horn systems, but they are there and audible with experienced ears.

And there are the crossovers: depending on the measuring angle, (frequency-wise) overlapping drivers will cause massive FR irregularities up to almost complete cancellations. This phenomenon can't be avoided, unless you're into fullrange speakers (...with their own massive problems, also such with sound dispersion), so all multiway systems suffer from this. It means individual radiation patterns of different speaker designs with individual, direction- and frequency-dependent degrees of direct and reflected sound which aren't included in the on-axis frequency response.

So if you equalize a speaker to a straight line, what does this mean? That it sounds exactly like another speaker measuring as a straight line? Far from that! The opposite is true. Different designs measuring virtually the same on axis will most likely sound radically different. And now keep in mind that we only have focussed on frequency-response aspects and have left other important criteria such as harmonic distortion and transient response apart. I don't have to tell you that they can have an equal degree of impact on the sound, although generally speaking frequency response is the most important criterion.

Headphones? There is no linear frequency response with headphones. The HRTF (head-related transfer function) is necessary to understand headphone measurements. And it has also to be considered that the scientifically elaborated HRTF is just a coarse scheme; in reality every individual has an individual HRTF.

And now the surprise: Despite the miserable response of sound transducers with every criterion -- compared to electronics components --, we can nevertheless hear sonic finesses in the latter and even in cables. It's hard to explain, but as most people have experienced, the great majority of audiophiles anyway, it's true. To the skeptics, and Steve the Bigshot in particular: At least you're able to distinguish the voices of Madonna and Kylie Minogue, aren't you? I'm not necessarily joking, because given the measurable flaws of sound transducers, that's not self-evident at all.


Quote:

I know what causes upgraditis... It's a result of people not having a clearly defined goal for their sound system. They get whatever component sounds impressive to them in theory, and they figure it will work all by itself, regardless of whatever else they put with it. It doesn't matter if the sound is *correct* as long as it's *different*. This results in a colored sound presentation. After a few months of "listening to music with rose colored glasses" they tire of the coloration and randomly try another color... and another... and another.


I know you know a lot of things, but wisdom is to know how little one knows.


Quote:

...But you won't get anywhere if you ignore the most basic concepts.


That's certainly true. But you have a very limited perspective when you cling to basic concepts such as your frequency response. (And that only sound transducers matter.)


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Aug 9, 2005 at 7:59 PM Post #58 of 85
newmanoc said:
Quote:

I follow your argument, but it overlooks a key point. We are trying with audio to reproduce the original *music*. Minute deficiencies in source performance mean that parts of that musical message never make it into the audio chain. To the extremely sensitive human brain and ear, this is the equivalent of starting off 1 degree of course when you embark on a long, complicated journey - you never fully end up where you want to be, just some place in the vicinity.


Here is how I puzzle out problems like this. When I suspect there might be a problem with the source, I go through this thinking process...

First of all, I need to define the sort of error I'm suspecting... Harmonic distortion? Frequency imbalance? Signal to noise? What exactly is getting altered in the sound? It's important to be able to clearly define the problem before defining the solution. Otherwise you may be solving a problem that doesn't exist. (Like the thread about phase that was recently taken off the top of this forum...)

Once I've described the problem in concrete terms, I try to come up with a theory about what's causing it. I try to isolate the problem to ensure that it's being caused by what I think is causing it, and not some other factor I haven't taken into consideration. And then I think about how I can address that cause to correct it.

When I come up with a possible solution, I think about how that particular problem and solution interacts with other alterations in the signal further along in the system. Could a shift upstream be interacting with another shift downstream? If tiny problems in the source are being amplified further down the line, what is amplifying them and why? If so, addressing the issue that is amplifying the problem might be more effective than trying to remove every last trace of the problem itself.

This is the sort of thinking process that I've found is the best at problem solving.

See ya
Steve
 
Aug 9, 2005 at 8:07 PM Post #59 of 85
Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ
Flat frequency response: What does that mean with speakers?


Now there is a response I can work with! Thanks!

If you can hold off till tonight, I'll call my engineer friend who is in the middle of dealing with all of the issues you're talking about. I'll read him your questions and transcribe his answers for you. He's bound to have some interesting things to say.

See ya
Steve
 
Aug 9, 2005 at 8:59 PM Post #60 of 85
Quote:

Originally Posted by clarke68
Jazz mentioned he knew a better way to balance a room than the frequency sweep method you described, I'd just like to hear about it because I don't know of a better way...at least not one that uses pink noise.


I'll elaborate on this later.

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