[vergesslich22]

Hi. Isn't it true that mainly speakers are used in audio production, but from time to time producers check whether the final result sounds good with headphones? Most of the time speakers are dominating the production decisions, but it might be that changes can be made that are not interdependent and will not change the sound a lot when listened to with speakers.

And it might be that the most common headphone A is used for this, and producers might do some little sound tweaks at some places to make the production compatible with headphones - with the most common headphone, or similar ones.

Could this lead to a situation where a new headphone B is made by someone who focuses on technicalities, maybe uses only few common productions and more of their own recordings to tweak their headphone, and then headphone B will sound bad with those common productions? Because the A-tweaks aren't B-compatible.

Do you think that's a realistic reasoning?

 

[bigshot]

I've never seen headphones used for mixing, only editing. The problem with cans is that they can suck up bass. You can mix a track and it will sound fine on headphones, but when you play it back on speakers, it turns into a boomy mess. The inverse isn't as true. Stuff mixed for speakers sound good on headphones. Maybe a tweak here and there to clean up stray edits that weren't obvious on speakers, but the overall tone of the mix works.

 

[vergesslich22]

There is this song "The Magic Key" by "One-T" which I can't listen to on headphones. I don't think there is a version of it that allows it. The snare drum works great on speakers, but on headphones it doesn't and hurts.

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say, because this song rather proves your point that there are professionals that didn't make any adjustment for headphones, but I think it's tempting to do so in this case, and I guess the snare drum would still sound snappy when it was just not hurting my ears, using headphones.

Anyway, I was trying to reason why I should or should not try again the HD 660S. The alternative would be the HD 600. I currently have only the HD 560S and I think I just need a better headphone.

The HD 660S seems to have its own characteristic sound, and - among other observations - there may be something going on with the dynamics in this headphone. But I couldn't find out what it was; either it's able to show "compressor artefacts problems" created by the producer (which would be helpful to show), or it itself tends to produce "somehow compressed sound" in dummyhead headphone recordings (this might mean nothing as I should try using the headphone myself), or it doesn't matter anyway (speakers dominate the mixing decisions, forget about headphone dynamics).

Kind regards

 

[castleofargh]

Hi. Isn't it true that mainly speakers are used in audio production, but from time to time producers check whether the final result sounds good with headphones? Most of the time speakers are dominating the production decisions, but it might be that changes can be made that are not interdependent and will not change the sound a lot when listened to with speakers.

And it might be that the most common headphone A is used for this, and producers might do some little sound tweaks at some places to make the production compatible with headphones - with the most common headphone, or similar ones.

Could this lead to a situation where a new headphone B is made by someone who focuses on technicalities, maybe uses only few common productions and more of their own recordings to tweak their headphone, and then headphone B will sound bad with those common productions? Because the A-tweaks aren't B-compatible.

Do you think that's a realistic reasoning?

It’s unlikely, and the reason is the same as to why speakers are favorable to work on a track.
A given speaker setup will feel about the same for everybody, you don’t really get that with headphones for a bunch of reasons, going from differences in bass from the way you wear it(how much hair is in the way, your jaw line, maybe big ears will push it away or just a bigger head increasing the clamping force), to what portion of your fairly unique HRTF it bypasses. To more complicated reactions to all the cues that can contradict other cues and how your brain will decide to handle that.
All to say, whatever the guy making the track was hearing, you’re not very likely to hear, or perceive the same while using the same headphone. I’d say that hypothesis is a bust.

I do have some tracks that sounded great only on a particular headphone or IEM that I would now consider really bad. I think it’s just a lucky coincidence where our own taste, our own headphone+head interactions happen to help a track that’s just ”meh” when heard on a more neutral(to me!) headphone.

As for headphone vs speaker, I have many tracks I adore on speaker that I don’t even bother putting in a playlist for my headphone/IEM rigs. The opposite is so rare that I can’t even think of one exemple on the top of my head right now. But I know people who have the opposite experience, so... subjectivity to the max.

”miiiiiissing you, miiiiiiissing you, miiiiiiissing you magic crew”. I still love that track, happy lyrics and all. Plus it’s like Fugees with Killing me softly, it made me know the older stuff it came from. Which is a win win situation.

 

[bigshot]

Also, since the sound is being directed right into your ear holes, imbalances in upper mods and low treble sound more harsh than with speakers where that harshness might get absorbed a bit by the acoustics of the room or distance.

 

[vergesslich22]

Yeah, a bit of a chorus effect or some other trick might have helped the snare drum. As a bit of a cross feed might have helped a few beatles song parts that I didn't like because there was something hard panned to the left, the other thing hard panned to the right. So, music is full of reasons to like speakers (more) and get more deterministic sound reproduction with them. Then I guess there is no such way that I could "reason in favour of the HD 660S as mixing tool", which is what I actually tried to do. I mean, people say the sound source localisation works better with it, as it does with other "fast transients" headphones, so.. it's actually missing any other benefits. So I tried to find buyers reasons ... over the internet. Youtube.

The only way to find out whether the HD 660S really is a "20 year younger side-grade" to the HD 600/650 is buying and using it. Whatever I may find, it may convince me, but it won't have to do anything with habits of producers. As I don't have time and money to compare them extensively, I won't be able to write any nice comparison review.

Thank you guys

Blue Effect - Ma Hra is beautiful...

 

[gregorio]

Hi. Isn't it true that mainly speakers are used in audio production, but from time to time producers check whether the final result sounds good with headphones? Most of the time speakers are dominating the production decisions, but it might be that changes can be made that are not interdependent and will not change the sound a lot when listened to with speakers.

That is broadly true. However, some producers may never check with headphones and although very rare (and typically only with certain genres), some might do most of the mixing with headphones and only check with speakers but as a general rule, engineers are taught not to mix on HPs. Additionally, this has varied over time. As more consumers use headphones, it has become more likely that the mix will be checked (and maybe tweaked) on HPs. So in the 1990’s and earlier, it is increasing unlikely the mixes/masters were checked on HPs.

And it might be that the most common headphone A is used for this …

Not really. In studios we tend to have different headphones for different tasks, for checking mixes Sennheiser HD600s were probably the most common but there are numerous different HPs used by different individuals. I have no idea of actual figures but “most common headphone” probably wouldn’t be more than around 30% of engineers/producers.

There’s no hard and fast rule, except that any experienced professional engineer/producer should know what’s been stated by others here regarding the inherent unpredictability of HP use, different HRTFs, fit and perception. I personally will almost always check a mix with HPs, though typically only briefly, once (as I already have a good idea of what effect the production techniques I’ve used will have on HPs) and it also depends on distribution. For example, if I know the tracks will be distributed mainly through Apple Music, I’ll likely check the mix with Air Pods.

G

 

[bigshot]

The only headphones I've seen used in a studio are beaters used for tracking. They were usually cheap and were tossed in a box when you were done using them. They were only used for isolation, not for checking sound.

 

[Davesrose]

For audio reproduction, I normally equate headphones as being used by musicians during the recording phase, and speaker monitors used by engineers during mixing. Just as with other disciplines, there's no way you can account for every reproduction from the consumer. Like my professional experience with 3D animation: I always work from color calibrated monitors, so you just aim for a "neutral" grading that should look fine in most situations. However, there's always outliers. Like my Master's thesis in medical illustration-I created animations on cervical screening with fluorescent technology. When I was trying to show initial animations for the physician, I found his monitor settings were abysmal (initially, everything was almost black).

 

[gregorio]

For audio reproduction, I normally equate headphones as being used by musicians during the recording phase, and speaker monitors used by engineers during mixing.

It depends on what audio reproduction, what phase and the specific workflow. Live sound engineers, DJs and Production Sound Mixers for example use headphones a great deal or even near constantly and these headphones often have somewhat different characteristics. For example, headphones for musician cue mixes need good isolation, to be light in the bass but don’t need high resolution. Production Sound Mixers need excellent isolation and an even bass response. HPs are sometimes used for editing tasks, they don’t need good isolation but do need excellent resolution.

G

 

[71 dB]

I've never seen headphones used for mixing, only editing.

Well, some people use headphones in mixing switching between them and loudspeakers for different sonic aspects. I want my own music to work well on both loudspeakers and headphones (without crossfeed!) and that's why I switch between to balance things out for both. Everything is a compromise, but hopefully a good compromise.

The problem with cans is that they can suck up bass.

If you mix bass for speakers, headphones are likely to "suck up" it, but the trick is to mix bass for both. Making the bass almost or completely mono is a start. If you really need to pan bass somewhere, use delay between left and right channels instead of amplitude panning for bass. The upper harmonics of the bass sound can be amplitude panned to increase the width of the sound. Mixing bass almost mono and increasing the channel difference with frequency is a way to mould spatiality that works for both speakers and loudspeakers and helps with the "suck up" problem what I call "headphone fake bass" caused by excessive channel difference at low frequencies. Compressing bass strongly dynamically also helps: That way the bass is "present" in the mix with headphones without becoming boomy in rooms with speakers.

You can mix a track and it will sound fine on headphones, but when you play it back on speakers, it turns into a boomy mess. The inverse isn't as true. Stuff mixed for speakers sound good on headphones. Maybe a tweak here and there to clean up stray edits that weren't obvious on speakers, but the overall tone of the mix works.

It is not a good idea to mix using only headphones (or speakers for that matter). Use both and you know how things are in your mix.

Headphone mixing is blind to the room acoustics, especially room modes at low frequencies ( = boomy bass)

Loudspeaker mixing is blind to excessive spatiality at bass.

The higher frequency, the less it matters which one you use for mixing.

Headphone mixing is good at tiny detail, while loudspeaker mixing is good at the "big picture." They complement each other.

Stuff mixed with speakers for speakers don't sound that good on headphones for some people. The spectral balance/instrument balance can be good, but there can be mild to severe spatial problems for my spatial hearing at least and hence I use a cross-feeder to mitigate/eliminate those issues.

 

[gregorio]

Well, some people use headphones in mixing switching between them and loudspeakers for different sonic aspects.

Yes it’s not even that uncommon. @bigshot typically equates his personal experience/preferences with universal facts and indeed, they do often correlate but unfortunately not always and then we sometimes end up in a battle.

This Sound on Sound article specifically addresses mixing music on headphones, is one of quite a few, includes interviews with some top engineers/producers and clearly demonstrates that some engineers do at least some mixing on HPs. There’s also a significant number (certainly nowhere near a majority though) who commonly mix almost entirely on cans, though typically only creators of certain electronic genres.

Loudspeaker mixing is blind to excessive spatiality at bass. …

I wouldn’t say that. Generally, it’s fairly easy to know if you’re doing something that will be objectionable on HPs, without monitoring on HPs and even if it isn’t as objectionable on speakers.

Stuff mixed with speakers for speakers don't sound that good on headphones for some people.

Again, that’s not generally the case. Most mixes made on speakers for speakers sound good on HPs too. This is far less true for mixes made in the 1960’s though, because consumers hardly ever used HPs and consumer stereo speaker setups usually had the speakers very close together, so mixes needed to be very wide, hard panned, to get any stereo effect. I still come across the occasional commercial mix today that obviously hasn’t been checked on cans and have fairly serious avoidable issues when played on cans but these are relatively rare.

Clearly, some people like and specifically seek out that extra-wide stereo image presention by HPs. Many are like me, recognise it’s a different presentation with HPs and accept/enjoy that for what it is, without problem except for those relatively rare “extreme” exceptions. Some though, don’t seem able to accept/adapt to HP presentation and find the constant use of crossfeed preferable.

We have to be careful about applying our preferences as general rules that are applicable to everyone else and indeed, understanding and applying this is largely the job of professional engineers.

G

 

[bigshot]

I’ve seen headphones used for isolation in tracking, editing and noise reduction, but haven’t ever seen them used for adjusting balances in a mix. Maybe a non-pro in a home studio might use them to not bother others in the household, and perhaps someone might want to check a finished mix just to see how it sounds on cans, but I’ve never even seen headphones used on a mixing stage. Depending on headphones too much in a mix can be dangerous. I was once told that the sound house had a nice set of headphones tucked away in a closet if someone asked for them, but no one ever did.

The spatiality stuff we’ve been all over in the past and it gets nowhere. You can have fun going down that road without me.

 

[71 dB]

Yes it’s not even that uncommon. @bigshot typically equates his personal experience/preferences with universal facts and indeed, they do often correlate but unfortunately not always and then we sometimes end up in a battle.

We all are tempted to equate our personal experiences with universal facts. @bigshot seems to have most difficulties with this here.

To the rest of you post I reply with: I have learned my lesson here and I used the wording "some people" when talking about excessive spatiality & crossfeed.

 

[gregorio]

Maybe a non-pro in a home studio might use them …

Did you bother to read the linked article or are you saying the engineers interviewed, who’ve mixed for artists such as Seal, Madonna, Rihanna, Ed Sheeran and many others are “non-pro”?

G