Soundcard with absolute best SPDIF quality?

[Skorpitarius]

These days, most 'films' and tv record digitally, yes onto hard drive based systems.
I've seen it done .

 

[gregorio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadtonowhere08 /img/forum/go_quote.gif As far as the bit depth is concerned, I agree with you. The dynamic range of most recorded material is not extreme and well within 16 bit capabilities. Having said this, I believe that 16 bit has a dynamic range of 96db from 20Hz to 20kHz which even the cheaper DACs can handle. What frequencies are you basing this 139db spec?

That depends on the Noise Shaped Dither used. Bob Katz (the famous mastering engineer) has stated the dynamic range of 16bit within the most critical band (1kHz - 4kHz) is 150dB! Less severe noise shaping and a much wider freq band was quoted somewhere as 139dB but I don't have the precise details of the freq range. It's very difficult getting hold of the exact freq range as this is not provided as standard information and every noise shaping processor is a little different. Even if the dynamic range is only half of the figure I've quoted, that's still 133dB and still way beyond any 24bit DAC on the market. 96dB is still the theoretical dynamic range of 16bit (without noise shaping), even so a very dynamic symphony orchestra recording is almost never greater than 60dB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadtonowhere08 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Where we disagree is that you are fine with the way things are, and I am not. I guess it goes back to the .mp3 vs. lossless argument. Many people will argue that mastering is so bad these days that .mp3 compression is no big deal. I want to hear every detail I can, especially since I paid for the material. I should have a say in what kind of quality I pay for. I am not satisfied with lossy Dolby and DTS especially on a concert recording. The music is recorded as PCM (not DTS or Dolby) from the soundboard, and I want LPCM. Obviously mastering makes a larger difference, but making the track lossless is not harder than making it lossy. With movies, I am sure that there are more options that just 35mm tape in recording. Are you telling me that nobody in the movie industry records digitally using mastering grade ADCs? I am not saying you are wrong, but I find it a stretch that all movies are still record with such limitations in sound capabilities.

Film sound is recorded and mixed on digital PCM systems and then encoded to DD. As movies are still predominantly distributed on 35mm film, DD is the standard to which film sound is mixed. On occasion, a separate (additional) mix is made for DVD but this obviously costs more money and therefore is not done that often. Depending on the re-recording stage (dubbing theatre), making a lossless master could be more complicated as they are usually set up for mastering down to DD, this has been the standard for many years. If a dubbing theatre makes a lossless master (say 6 wav files), what are they going to do with it? Can't put it on a DVD-V and you can't put it on a CD!

I have not said that I'm fine with the way things are, I would rather have lossless 16/48 PCM but that is not possible with all the most common consumer movie formats; DVD-V, Digital TV or HDTV formats. The vast majority of consumers do not have surround systems which can even get close to the full potential of DD or DTS. So for most people, advances in the format are irrelevant. For example, the vast majority of home theatre systems are bass managed, rather than the full range systems found in cinemas, for which DD is usually mixed.

G

 

[roadtonowhere08]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregorio /img/forum/go_quote.gif That depends on the Noise Shaped Dither used. Bob Katz (the famous mastering engineer) has stated the dynamic range of 16bit within the most critical band (1kHz - 4kHz) is 150dB! Less severe noise shaping and a much wider freq band was quoted somewhere as 139dB but I don't have the precise details of the freq range. It's very difficult getting hold of the exact freq range as this is not provided as standard information and every noise shaping processor is a little different. Even if the dynamic range is only half of the figure I've quoted, that's still 133dB and still way beyond any 24bit DAC on the market. 96dB is still the theoretical dynamic range of 16bit (without noise shaping), even so a very dynamic symphony orchestra recording is almost never greater than 60dB.

Okay, gotcha, and I agree with you about the dynamics of music. It is not as much as movies (at least the action ones anyway). In addition, dynamics that are too great in music would drive me nuts as one would have to have an anechoic chamber to really get the whole effect.


Quote:

Originally Posted by gregorio /img/forum/go_quote.gif Film sound is recorded and mixed on digital PCM systems and then encoded to DD. As movies are still predominantly distributed on 35mm film, DD is the standard to which film sound is mixed. On occasion, a separate (additional) mix is made for DVD but this obviously costs more money and therefore is not done that often. Depending on the re-recording stage (dubbing theatre), making a lossless master could be more complicated as they are usually set up for mastering down to DD, this has been the standard for many years. If a dubbing theatre makes a lossless master (say 6 wav files), what are they going to do with it? Can't put it on a DVD-V and you can't put it on a CD! I have not said that I'm fine with the way things are, I would rather have lossless 16/48 PCM but that is not possible with all the most common consumer movie formats; DVD-V, Digital TV or HDTV formats. The vast majority of consumers do not have surround systems which can even get close to the full potential of DD or DTS. So for most people, advances in the format are irrelevant. For example, the vast majority of home theatre systems are bass managed, rather than the full range systems found in cinemas, for which DD is usually mixed. G

See that is what gets me. Movie theaters are not for absolute sound reproduction, they are for the experience, dynamics, and a huge screen. They should not be expected to have lossless soundtracks, because even though the speakers are great at dynamics, they are not ideally placed for each person. Due to this, any benefit from lossless is nullified. What I do not understand is why not have a special lossless track for each home release (DVD and Blu-Ray) from the beginning? We are paying through the nose for a movie we are going to be watching, what, five times or less? Most people will not care about it, but for $20-$30 each title, there had better be one for people that have the desire to have it. This is especially true for concert releases. They are never (well almost never) released in theaters, so the 35mm format limitation does not apply, and people will be listening closer to the sound anyway.

This is head-fi. Most people will not pass a DBT here, but we all strive for the best sound. That is why we are here. I want lossless for the small sound quality increase and piece of mind that the sound is as it was recorded originally.

 

[wotblake]

Quote:

Originally Posted by linuxworks /img/forum/go_quote.gif if your 'high end' preamp is really high end, then it will do reclocking and you will be wasting your money on 'high end' sound cards. any old spdif transmitter with normal drivers will output ac3 'raw' and do what you want. no need to overspend.

+1

 

[FallenAngel]

Reclocking or not, a well-timed bit-perfect transport with minimal jitter (as in coax cable with BNC termination) will go a long way.

 

[roadtonowhere08]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FallenAngel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Reclocking or not, a well-timed bit-perfect transport with minimal jitter (as in coax cable with BNC termination) will go a long way.

Good luck finding one for a reasonable price unless you mod. I have looked everywhere, and the only thing I found (Sndscape Cinema, and apparently the company has fallen off the planet) SUCKED!!! I'm all eyes if you have a good suggestion that is either PCI or PCI-Express (preferred). I am not interested in USB...

 

[FallenAngel]

EMU0404PCI is pretty damn good and I use one at work. At home I modified a Creative XtremeMusic with a nice pulse transformer with the help of cetoole.

 

[roadtonowhere08]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FallenAngel /img/forum/go_quote.gif EMU0404PCI is pretty damn good and I use one at work. At home I modified a Creative XtremeMusic with a nice pulse transformer with the help of cetoole.

So no luck finding one with a BNC stock as well, eh? Yeah, I do not get it. It is not a hard thing to implement (a nice transformer and a BNC) and yet nobody does it for less than an expensive RME. Maybe one day...

 

[1UP]

It's not too hard to do on the 1212M 1010 daughter card; you can just look for a replacement PCB-mount part for the RCA connector.

For the 0404, I made a ghetto DB9 to BNC with Belden coax; probably not perfect impedance but still sounded better than that awful spaghetti dongle

 

[gregorio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadtonowhere08 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Movie theaters are not for absolute sound reproduction, they are for the experience, dynamics, and a huge screen. They should not be expected to have lossless soundtracks, because even though the speakers are great at dynamics, they are not ideally placed for each person. Due to this, any benefit from lossless is nullified. What I do not understand is why not have a special lossless track for each home release (DVD and Blu-Ray) from the beginning? We are paying through the nose for a movie we are going to be watching, what, five times or less? Most people will not care about it, but for $20-$30 each title, there had better be one for people that have the desire to have it. This is especially true for concert releases. They are never (well almost never) released in theaters, so the 35mm format limitation does not apply, and people will be listening closer to the sound anyway.

Mmmm. I have to say that sound quality is often taken very seriously in cinemas (movie theatres). The speakers are usually as ideally placed as possible, with diffuser units to widen the sweet spot. Furthermore, THX is a specification of construction, placement and installation of the sound system which is very exacting.

As I said, ideally we would have lossless but DVD is just not capable of playing back the video plus six channels of lossless audio, it's beyond the data rate specified for DVD-V. Blu-Ray allows for the next generation of Dolby and DTS which does have much higher data rates but even so we are still using some form of encoding. The problem is; how do you playback 6 independent audio streams in perfect synchronisation not only with each other but with the HD picture too? This problem is solved with encoding because you have a single compressed audio datastream which is read with the picture and then it's processed out to the individual channels by onboard processing in the DVD/Blu-Ray player (or A/V Receiver).

I know movies are expensive but that's largely down to the sheer number of highly skilled crafts-people required, 1,000+ is not unheard of! Compare that to a CD which generally would employ 10 or so crafts-people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FallenAngel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Reclocking or not, a well-timed bit-perfect transport with minimal jitter (as in coax cable with BNC termination) will go a long way.

Even more than minimal jitter should not be much of a problem as a decent DAC will have jitter rejection circuitry which will remove any transport induced jitter. The best method of transporting digital audio is AES/EBU format, BNC coax is good too but providing the cable run is less than about 15ft and interference is not a problem, there will be no benefit to either of these over say SPDIF on RCA connectors or optical.

G

 

[roadtonowhere08]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregorio /img/forum/go_quote.gif Mmmm. I have to say that sound quality is often taken very seriously in cinemas (movie theatres). The speakers are usually as ideally placed as possible, with diffuser units to widen the sweet spot. Furthermore, THX is a specification of construction, placement and installation of the sound system which is very exacting.

Perhaps where you live the sound is very nice. Where I live, a land of megaplexes, their sound is CRUSHED by my setup. When I go to the movies, I feel like I am looking through a hallway to see the screen. The theaters are smaller and the sound is beyond treble-happy. All people care about here is copious amounts of volume. THX certification or not, I get better sound at home.

IMAX, on the other hand, well that is just money well spent. Clearly a cut above pretty much any other theater.

 

[bordins]

I would suggest you get an external sound card/module. To my ears, the S/PDIF output from my M-Audio Audiophile USB has the least noise compared to other ones. The Firewire Solo's S/PDIF output is very good too.

The Asus Xonar HDAV 1.3 still has the higher noise floor. I'll be testing Jui@ soon, maybe next week.

 

[gregorio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadtonowhere08 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Perhaps where you live the sound is very nice. Where I live, a land of megaplexes, their sound is CRUSHED by my setup. When I go to the movies, I feel like I am looking through a hallway to see the screen. The theaters are smaller and the sound is beyond treble-happy. All people care about here is copious amounts of volume. THX certification or not, I get better sound at home. IMAX, on the other hand, well that is just money well spent. Clearly a cut above pretty much any other theater.

The volumes of cinema are fixed by Dolby at a reference of 85dB, as they have been for many years. Although with compression it is probable on some genres of film that the rms values have increased over the years. Cinemas are required to have their systems calibrated once a year by Dolby or once every 6 months for THX. Although you might get more clarity and focused sound at home, there should be certain advantages with a cinema system, full range speakers for one.

Obviously, some cinemas take care of and have better sound than others but the Dolby specification and even more so the THX specification is supposed to provide a certain level of standardisation. You have to realise there is very little profit in showing film in cinemas. Most cinemas break even on ticket sales with the only profit coming from merchandising/food. So there is very little incentive for many cinemas to upgrade their sound quality.

IMAX are a completely different audio specification. There are very few IMAX cinemas in the world (30 or so I believe) and very few dubbing theatres capable of mixing in IMAX format (10.2).

G

 

[qusp]

check out the lynx offerings, they're superb. I run an RME fireface; which sounds great, but its getting a bit old in the tooth. next upgrade will probably be an apogee or perhaps even a lowly waves/TC works interface

boith of those will produce 120db +

 

[roadtonowhere08]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregorio /img/forum/go_quote.gif The volumes of cinema are fixed by Dolby at a reference of 85dB, as they have been for many years. Although with compression it is probable on some genres of film that the rms values have increased over the years. Cinemas are required to have their systems calibrated once a year by Dolby or once every 6 months for THX. Although you might get more clarity and focused sound at home, there should be certain advantages with a cinema system, full range speakers for one. Obviously, some cinemas take care of and have better sound than others but the Dolby specification and even more so the THX specification is supposed to provide a certain level of standardisation. You have to realise there is very little profit in showing film in cinemas. Most cinemas break even on ticket sales with the only profit coming from merchandising/food. So there is very little incentive for many cinemas to upgrade their sound quality. IMAX are a completely different audio specification. There are very few IMAX cinemas in the world (30 or so I believe) and very few dubbing theatres capable of mixing in IMAX format (10.2). G

Agreed on all counts. I run my speakers full range as well; it works great for music.