[ROBSCIX]

Quote:

What about a Xonar ST with upgraded opamps? Bursons?

There are many great sources out there.  You would have to check the specs and features list to see which is the right onw for you.

 

[joe_cool]

 
Quote:

External DAC's can be great and so are many soundcards.  Assuming one is always better then the other indicates misinformation as there are good and bad units in both groups.
Look at the measuremeants of modern soundcards, in many cases they easily surpass many external DAC's for SNR, dynamic range and noise.  If the inside of the PC is so noisy and it is getting into the soundcard then where is the noise?
It is not shown on the output measurments or quality.  If you want to use an external DAC that is fine but using one based on misunderstandings and bad information regarding internals is not too good.
 

I agree with these statements. I have a lot of experience with external DACs connected via USB, coax and optical SPDIF. if you have a good power supply and a good chassis, the claims about noise are simply a myth. One of my best-sounding systems is an old Asus motherboard with an Antec chassis and power supply. The Audiotrak Prodigy HD2 is a winner here as the DAC is connected to the transport via I2S (there is no jitter induced by SPDIF). Problems with some hardware are real, but blanket statements about "noise in the system" are not justified.

 

[moonshake]

ROBSCIX , joe_cool
I agree with both of you...
Been using the D2 with a Corsair PSU and an Antec case with perfect results. Absolutely no noise so far. (In fact, the Xonar is far better shielded than the Canamp) I´m not able to test an external DAC with my setup so I´ve just put the D2 up on sale this morning. Thinking to get a Xonar ST for about 160€ Don´t wanna spend 300€ on a ¨budget¨ DAC and be somewhat dissapointed.
I hope I´m making a wise choice.

 

[nagual]

Quote:

External DAC's can be great and so are many soundcards.  Assuming one is always better then the other indicates misinformation as there are good and bad units in both groups.
Look at the measuremeants of modern soundcards, in many cases they easily surpass many external DAC's for SNR, dynamic range and noise.  If the inside of the PC is so noisy and it is getting into the soundcard then where is the noise?
It is not shown on the output measurments or quality.  If you want to use an external DAC that is fine but using one based on misunderstandings and bad information regarding internals is not too good.
 
I would check the specs, I am pretty sure the unit in the D2 is of higher quality then the unit in the DACMagic.

Afaik, there are some sound cards where the circuitry is built inside some kind of Faraday´s cage, to prevent them from EMR.  This, wouldn´t be the case ?

 

[joe_cool]

 
Quote:

Afaik, there are some sound cards where the circuitry is built inside some kind of Faraday´s cage, to prevent them from EMR.  This, wouldn´t be the case ?

In my experience the problem isn't EMI, but rather corrupted ground and +5 VDC. The former can damage output with computer-related noise and is often the fault of the chassis or the output circuitry, where the latter is a fault of the power supply.
 

 

[nagual]

joe_cool:
 
1- "The former can damage output with computer-related noise and is often the fault of the chassis"
 
You mean the case ?  If so,  what to look for in a case to avoid this ?
 
2- "or the output circuitry"
 
Of the sound-card ?
 
(Didn´t find much about "corrupted ground" in Wikipedia)

 

[germanium]

joe_cool:
 
1- "The former can damage output with computer-related noise and is often the fault of the chassis"
 
You mean the case ?  If so,  what to look for in a case to avoid this ?
 
2- "or the output circuitry"
 
Of the sound-card ?
 
(Didn´t find much about "corrupted ground" in Wikipedia)

 

 

[germanium]

Quote:

joe_cool:
 
1- "The former can damage output with computer-related noise and is often the fault of the chassis"
 
You mean the case ?  If so,  what to look for in a case to avoid this ?
 
2- "or the output circuitry"
 
Of the sound-card ?
 
(Didn´t find much about "corrupted ground" in Wikipedia)

Ground loops is what they are talking about
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity)
 

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kboe /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
The power isn't the problem. The common ground is. Here all the noise gets conducted. The D+ and D- data pair of USB must be accompanied by a ground connection. It is this ground connection which conducts all the computer-generated nasties right into the analog audio ground. Unless some extraordinary efforts are made to isolate the computer and audio sides, all power supply clean-up efforts are wasted. The ground of the USB link maintains a constant connection of the computer with the rest of the audio system.


'In the case of the Streamers, we provide complete isolation between the computer and analog sides. Not only do we regenerate the power (thereby breaking the common ground), we do the same with all the data moving between the two halves. This allows us to draw power from the host computer. Because we are completely isolated, the fact that we're connected to the computer has no impact on the performance of our product.' "

Not incorrect, but it omits quite a bit.  Power is important and can be a problem - it is wrong to assume that a power supply adequately filters noise.  There's a lot of junk out there.
 
More importantly, the ground isn't the only source of noise inside a computer.  The fans, drives and much else are radiating RFI.  They're little radio transmitters and there is RFI bouncing all over the place inside there.  Even if you have pristine power and an excellent ground, one of these little radio transmissions can be picked up and turned into a little hash that's fed into the audio signal.
 
The simplest route is to just avoid using a computer.  They're OK if you're feeding a digital line out to a DAC.

 

[ramicio]

RFI would be true if fans an drives used motors with brushes, but they don't, they are brushless.  This is so overrated and false.  Maybe some $100 cheapo bargain computer on sale might have some noise inside the case, but I wouldn't expect someone who is serious about listening to music would use a crappy machine.  Video can be transmitted perfectly to the monitor to become the exact picture someone sees without loss, so why would audio be any different?  The end result (pixel) is analog, just like sound, and there are tons more of them (bit rate).

 

[WrxSTI]

I'd have to agree.
 
I have a Radeon 4870x2 which pulls 286 watts of electrical power at full load and not once, I repeat, not once have I heard any kind of noise, interference or what not in my headphones or speakers, and this is with onboard sound! Not even when the card is outputting 1000's of frames per second (in menus and the like). One can only imagine a dedicated soundcard would be even more immune to these problems as it has more room for various power filtering stages and the like.
 
So I guess if it makes people feel superior to keep their audio conversion outside of the big bad noisy PC, have at it. But wishful thinking and misinformation is one thing, theory and real life evidence yet another.
 
The only issue similar to any of this I'm aware of is the one with certain Auzentech cards picking up noise from the GPU but this is a case-related issue (ground or what not) and not by any means traveling through air, or the motherboard, and as such it is fairly easy to fix.

 

[myinitialsaredac]

Quote:

What about a Xonar ST with upgraded opamps? Bursons?

if you are using an outboard amp changing the analog path on your sound card shouldnt make a difference. 
 
I would also agree with going with an outboard dac.
 
If you are considering using the ST with opamps as a dac and an amp its an interesting idea, but I think the bursons would benefit froma  more robust power circuit. Again you run into the electrical issues of an onboard soundcard. I suppose you could shield it but the power source is still sub-optimal.
 
Im not sure of the implementation of the dac circuit on the ST but you should look at both the chip, power source, bias, and analog stage of the dac output.
 
Hope this helps, 
Dave

 

[myinitialsaredac]

 
Quote:

I'd have to agree.
 
I have a Radeon 4870x2 which pulls 286 watts of electrical power at full load and not once, I repeat, not once have I heard any kind of noise, interference or what not in my headphones or speakers, and this is with onboard sound! Not even when the card is outputting 1000's of frames per second (in menus and the like). One can only imagine a dedicated soundcard would be even more immune to these problems as it has more room for various power filtering stages and the like.
 
So I guess if it makes people feel superior to keep their audio conversion outside of the big bad noisy PC, have at it. But wishful thinking and misinformation is one thing, theory and real life evidence yet another.
 
The only issue similar to any of this I'm aware of is the one with certain Auzentech cards picking up noise from the GPU but this is a case-related issue (ground or what not) and not by any means traveling through air, or the motherboard, and as such it is fairly easy to fix.

You listen to the radio in your car and there is plenty of electrical  noise buzzing about but you can still hear music. Sometimes you can hear other stations on your station. 
 
Just because you don't notice it all the time does not mean its not there.
 
Dave

 

[moonshake]

Quote:

Quote:

What about a Xonar ST with upgraded opamps? Bursons?

if you are using an outboard amp changing the analog path on your sound card shouldnt make a difference. 
 
I would also agree with going with an outboard dac.
Can you recommend any below 300€ external DAC that can outperform D2, ST/STX SQ ? (I mean going coax from my actual D2) 
 
If you are considering using the ST with opamps as a dac and an amp its an interesting idea, but I think the bursons would benefit froma  more robust power circuit. Again you run into the electrical issues of an onboard soundcard. I suppose you could shield it but the power source is still sub-optimal.
Ok...and to be sincere, I don´t know if it´s worth the hassle. Thanks about the advice on the power source, thought a solid 12v-18a rail to the ST could be enough.
 
Im not sure of the implementation of the dac circuit on the ST but you should look at both the chip, power source, bias, and analog stage of the dac output.
 
Hope this helps, 
Dave

Thanks for the help!

 

[myinitialsaredac]

I looked over some of the STX specs, briefly anyways. Seems like they covered a lot of the general issues I had, to what proficiency I dont know but they at least gave it the thought. 
 
Unfortunately Im not far along enough in my research of the STX to draw the power circuit, I admit I was making a generalization of typical power handling of incase cards.
 
The choice is yours to make, if asus delivered on what they said then the STX may be a streamlined solution, but if you want to try an outboard look to products like the dacmagic, the HRT music streamer +, the headroom ultra micro dac (which you can still find around the used forums).
 
Audio-gd is working on some dacs with the ESS sabre chipsets which have astounding technical papers and numbers. Though I havent heard to many reviews on their audio performances regarding the human ear.  Worth a look.
 
I think partys involved in this hobby tend to lose sight of the music and focus on the equipment, i.e. the technical babble surrounding it and generally forget that people have different taste preferences and that in the end it is most important that you like what you are listening to. A technically perfect dac may sound wonderful to me and terrible to my neighbor, so I would suggest trying as many as you can and reading reviews to try to glean the overall sound signature of the different options.
 
Best luck, 
Dave