[shigzeo]

i see we both came from the md camp! haha. there are few good line outs in portables - very few. many were added just to add a certain feel of proper audiophile attraction but without good implementation. you might be surprised hooking even the lowly amped headout of the ipod to a home unit - with proper connection, how good it can sound. i have been at clubs where dj's did this for certain songs and it was phenomenal. there was a hifi meet some time ago too where this was the main source for music as the flow and everyone thought it was a proper hifi rig with you know: expensive cd player and preamps.

 

[grawk]

I think anything that gets music to people is a good thing. If that means mp3 players with crappy ibuds and 128k itunes purchases, so be it. The equivalent 30 years ago was transistor radios. If sound quality is really your goal, there are stores in every major city that sell great gear at almost every price point, from sub $500 to whatever you want to spend. Quality gear is much more reasonable now than it ever has been. Is there a lot of crap? Of course there is. There was 30 years ago too. My whole issue in this thread has been the apples to carrots comparisons.

 

[DrBenway]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif i see we both came from the md camp! haha.

Oh yeah. My first was a Sharp. I've had Sony's since then. I still really like my RH1. And I've got an MDS-E10 deck in my main system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif There are few good line outs in portables - very few. many were added just to add a certain feel of proper audiophile attraction but without good implementation.

Yeah, I've participated in a few online discussions about the RH1's lineout. Some argued that it actually bypasses the volume/tone controls, while others argued that it merely was a config set that maxed the volume and set the tone controls to flat, without bypassing any of the actual circuitry. Realistically, I would have to lean toward the latter explanation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif You might be surprised hooking even the lowly amped headout of the ipod to a home unit - with proper connection, how good it can sound. i have been at clubs where dj's did this for certain songs and it was phenomenal. there was a hifi meet some time ago too where this was the main source for music as the flow and everyone thought it was a proper hifi rig with you know: expensive cd player and preamps.

Actually, that doesn't surprise me. As much as I love mixing it up in arguments like the one in this thread, ultimately it's the music that matters (Oh GAWD. Somebody cue up "We Are The World"). Seriously, I just downloaded a Velvet Underground boot from 1967, recorded at a joint called the Gymnasium, in Manhattan. SQ is awful, objectively. But it has a 20 minute version of Sister Ray, and a tune I've never heard before. Am I happy? Yes, I am happy.

 

[DrBenway]

Quote:

Originally Posted by grawk /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think anything that gets music to people is a good thing. If that means mp3 players with crappy ibuds and 128k itunes purchases, so be it.

I can't argue with that. I'm still deeply suspicious of the iPod nation, but...it can't be a bad thing to get people to spend time listening to music.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grawk /img/forum/go_quote.gif The equivalent 30 years ago was transistor radios. If sound quality is really your goal, there are stores in every major city that sell great gear at almost every price point, from sub $500 to whatever you want to spend. Quality gear is much more reasonable now than it ever has been.

Still gotta disagree with you on this point (What, you were expecting a love fest?) <g>

I know there is plenty of good stuff avialable, but I don't know where to find it in retail storefronts. As I said in an earlier post, I miss being able to walk into a store and audition a variety of equipment at a range of price points. The megastores sure don't sell it; try finding good two-channel stuff at BestBuy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grawk /img/forum/go_quote.gif Is there a lot of crap? Of course there is. There was 30 years ago too. My whole issue in this thread has been the apples to carrots comparisons.

I understand your point, even if I didn't make that clear earlier. But I think that the average kid walking into a store these days has a dramatically narrower range of choices than I did. Obviously the sponsors who advertise here offer everything you could possibly want. Do most people even realize that this site exists? I think good sound is much more of a minority taste than it used to be, and that's too bad.

 

[grawk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrBenway /img/forum/go_quote.gif Still gotta disagree with you on this point (What, you were expecting a love fest?) <g> I know there is plenty of good stuff avialable, but I don't know where to find it in retail storefronts. As I said in an earlier post, I miss being able to walk into a store and audition a variety of equipment at a range of price points. The megastores sure don't sell it; try finding good two-channel stuff at BestBuy.

Try Stereo Exchange, 627 Broadway.

 

[Sparky191]

I think the kind of people who would listen to a decent HiFi back then and spend that budget would be the kind of people to buy a better setup than the iPod system you are describing today.

 

[ILikeMusic]

The changes brought by the 'ipod nation' are a result of many things, and not necessarily just a dumbing down of the public with respect to recording quality. For a good part people aren't as interested in traditional hifi systems because people don't tend to listen to music in one place anymore. In fact I'm not sure that we even preferred it in the 70's, it was just that the technology of the time didn't allow much choice if you wanted to be mobile and maintain decent reproduction quality. Now you can.

Best Buy doesn't sell traditional two-speaker hifi systems because nobody (other than purists) seems to want them anymore, and I'm not sure that I blame them. Many people don't have the physical room and privacy to be able to enjoy a quality speaker-based system and if that's the case then they're not very useful. Mobile systems are simply much more practical for most people these days.

 

[dedin08]

I always like reading these threads: partly for the history of recorded sound, partly to get an understanding of what, to different people, sounds 'best.' Just be sure, I'm not being the least bit facetious when I say it's always interesting to read arguments for/against what are called bygone technologies.

I'm too new at these technologies to offer any opinion, save this one: the people who spend thousands on turntables, tube amps, balanced systems, counter-weighted shelving units etc. are the same kind of people who seek out mechanical watches that have to be wound every day and sent out for professional servicing every few years. There's nothing inherently wrong with owning a vintage Omega chronograph, just as there's nothing wrong with a Casio G-Shock. It's just that the people who go to the time and expense of taking care of the Omega are after a lot more than just telling time: I've heard people in the watch trade describe it as 'jewelry value,' the sense that you're not just getting something for its stated function, but for the ineffable: sense of history, prestige, knowledge of a 'bygone technology' that the G-Shock wearer would find quite incomprehensible.

But the important bit is that neither is incorrect: the guy with the Omega is wearing it for a reason other than telling the exact time. The G-Shock wearer wants to know what the exact time is, all the time, and not have to worry about it. I think these camps correlate pretty well to the vinyl/tape and Ipod/Mp3 debates.

On the other hand, if the 'jewelry value' were true in the case of vintage audio components, you'd hear a bunch of people on this thread expounding on the superior frequency response of wax cylinders. Ok, now I'm being facetious. Still, I find it fascinating that the Library of Congress still records all new music on a technology that is over a century old.

 

[DrBenway]

Quote:

Originally Posted by grawk /img/forum/go_quote.gif Try Stereo Exchange, 627 Broadway.

I will! I must say, the word "stereo" in the name is promising...


Quote:

Originally Posted by ILikeMusic /img/forum/go_quote.gif Many people don't have the physical room and privacy to be able to enjoy a quality speaker-based system and if that's the case then they're not very useful. Mobile systems are simply much more practical for most people these days.

I think that's true to the extent that many people do most of their listening on the go. But it's also true that the superstores sell lots of bulky home theatre setups. People buy big-screen TVs and as many as 9 speakers (including at least one large sub) to go with them. The emphasis is on reproducing movie soundtracks, not music. I realize that the majority rules the market, but I still feel left out in the cold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dedin08 /img/forum/go_quote.gif But the important bit is that neither is incorrect: the guy with the Omega is wearing it for a reason other than telling the exact time. The G-Shock wearer wants to know what the exact time is, all the time, and not have to worry about it. I think these camps correlate pretty well to the vinyl/tape and Ipod/Mp3 debates.

I agree that there is a certain type of audiophile who is more concerned with the equipment than the music played on it. I've definitely known a few such people. But I think I occupy a middle ground. I don't have the budget for a $10,000 system right now, but I could see my way clear to spending that much if I did have the scratch. Would I, on the other hand, buy a $50,000 table? No. $40,000 monoblocks? No. $2,000 speaker cables? Absolutely not. I really wish there was something for $500 that would give me what I want, but I haven't found it.

To my ears, there is a good ROI up to a certain point. After that, diminiishing returns rapidly set in. I wouldn't venture past the point where I could detect a significant improvement in sound. My goal is to spend just enough to get sound that satisfies me.

I recently read a rave review in Stereophile of the Audio Engine 2s. These are small, powered speakers of the kind that usually make me foam at the mouth. But the reviewer said they sounded impossibly good for the $200 they cost, and I am looking forward to hearing them. If they are really that good, I would happily use them with my PC, and maybe even as part of a convenient secondary system with my RH1. I'm really not as absolute about these things as I probably seem. I just haven't heard anything in that category that impressed me.

 

[ILikeMusic]

Quote:

I recently read a rave review in Stereophile of the Audio Engine 2s.

And not just Stereophile... virtually every review I could find was tripping over themselves to say how good these things were. Thanks for the mention, for $199 I may have to give a set of these a try...

 

[Jolida302]

Quote:

Originally Posted by j-dawg /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is seriously one of the silliest threads I've ever read here. I would have to hear a walkman pro for myself to believe it. I can believe that the walkman pro machine itself has extremely high quality components and therefore has very good sound, but the media it is using, the lowly cassette, is absolutely awful. It's going to be limited by that. Again, I can't get too down on the o/p because I haven't actually heard one of these for myself. Now if you were touting the superiority of your reel-to-reel running @ 15 inches/sec well sure, I would believe you straight away. A stupid cassette, I'm not even curious enough to even try it unless you gave me a free candybar or something for my trouble. And no I'm not some 15 year old kid who's barely older than the Internet. I used and loved cassettes most of my life, until far superior technologies came along.

Cassette is indeed the most fragile format, but even low quality tape pre recorded cassettes (*) played through a Sony Pro walkman WM D6 SMOKE the same album played through the best PCDP. For example, get Miles Davis/Sketches in spain , 1998 remaster in both CD and tape. The WM D6 will smoke all PCDPs and many home based CD setups in term of both performance AND musicality.

And i don't talk about a great source (vinyl, tuner or big CD) recorded trough a big Naka (1000, 700/1000 ZXL) on a quality Chrome or Metal tape.

I do the comparison almost everyday as i constantly switch from my Sony D25S to my WM D6. Even my big home based Cd setup (Sonic Frontiers SFT1 transport, Nordost Silver shadow digital cable and Goldmund Mimesis 14 converter, with a dedicated power line, four filters, 9 levels of vib' isolation) suffer from the comparison with the WM-D6 connected to my home system.

And the WM D6 is of course far behind a big home tapedeck such as a Naka 1000, 1000 ZXL, 700 ZXL which smoke the biggest digital setups in term of musicality!!!:


(have a look at these analog wonders

http://my.reset.jp/~inu/ProductsData...%201000ZXL.jpg


http://www.vintage-audio.com.ua/pict...00zxllim_b.jpg


http://my.reset.jp/~inu/ProductsData...i%20700ZXL.jpg

I claim it : The Sony WM D6 is the best portable source ever (along with some obsolete Nakamichi reel to reel "transportable" machines).

(*) depending on the release, there are good pre recorded tapes as there are bad ones. Just like there are good and bad CD and LP releases. But a good Cassette through a great tapedeck smokes a good Cd through a great player, just like a good LP smokes a good CD...

 

[Jolida302]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILikeMusic /img/forum/go_quote.gif And not just Stereophile... virtually every review I could find was tripping over themselves to say how good these things were. Thanks for the mention, for $199 I may have to give a set of these a try...

I own the Audio Engine A2 & A5. I find the A5 good but the A2 is too limited IMO.

I currently use the following micro system:

Sources:
-Sony Pro Walkman WM D6
-Sony Discman D25S

Preamp:
-Headroom portable micro amp

Speakers:
-Audioengine A5

Cables:
Power: Wireworld Silver Electra III+ on the power filter & 5.2 on the AE A5.
Modulation: Cardas mini line
Speakers: Qed Silver anniversary

 

[Exapno]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILikeMusic /img/forum/go_quote.gif Many people don't have the physical room and privacy to be able to enjoy a quality speaker-based system and if that's the case then they're not very useful.

I agree. I used to have quite a respectable 'budget' separates system, amp, cd, tuner etc. It sounded pretty damn good. Then I bought a house. The living room was too small to accommodate that amount of equipment, the shape was awkward for speaker placement but mostly, the acoustics of the room sounded truly awful. I ended up selling the lot with the intention of getting a decent source/headphone amp/headphones/comfy chair set up (must get around to that...)

On the up side, I now have a house

 

[ILikeMusic]

Quote:

Cassette is indeed the most fragile format, but even low quality tape pre recorded cassettes (*) played through a Sony Pro walkman WM D6 SMOKE the same album played through the best PCDP. For example, get Miles Davis/Sketches in spain , 1998 remaster in both CD and tape. The WM D6 will smoke all PCDPs and many home based CD setups in term of both performance AND musicality.

Please define what performance specs you are referring to as well as what you mean by 'musicality'... I'm curious what specific qualities are superior in a mass-produced cassette tape vs. the best PCDP...

 

[Jolida302]

Performance: simply all criterias: dynamic, image, mateer, low, high, transparency, etc...

Musicality: no need to explain

It's just the difference between analog and digital...now a bad tape (bad release) will be less good than a good CD remaster.
But as i said, take the 1998 remaster of Miles/ Sketches of spain
on pre recorded tape (if you still can find it) , and compare it to the same remaster on CD through any PCDP and you'll hear that the tape goes much further on all criteries (no need to enumerate again) and simply give much more pleasure than the edgy and thin CD. You can listen to the tape much longer while the Cd will fatigue your ears quickly.

I don't talk about good condition pure analog tapes! That's really something...or record a good analog vinyl on a good turntable to a good tape deck...it's the best!

Or a direct concert on tuner recorded on tape...there's nothing better!