[Jalo]

   
Yes, what I meant by bias essentially encompasses how our individual minds work, it basically is just semantics to argue about this though, I basically agree with you.

No problem, its just that bias has a negative connotation like the word prejudice.  We wouldn't want to call each other prejudice or do we?  Furthermore it is  more accurate in that music actually serve to evoke a state of emotion that our brains need otherwise they are just noise. But we are all good. 

 

[Whitigir]

In my case my only bias is I am ultra critical of Daps with higher price tag.

Best in audio is relative, we all like different sounds.

My bias tells me if you put 1A and Lpg front of me and if I knew nothing about anything I'll pick a1 due to it been more modern. Lpg is for those who know their music well and get a kick out of hearing subtle things that Lpg allows them to hear.

Then again, if you can not tell the differences, why would you be here and wasting your money ? Then again, an experienced brain is different than a 0 experiences. The same as "telling the differences between pictures" in a blind test. You wouldn't be able to tell the first few times, then once you realized it....it is just there as always....because it is facts.....not tricks by brains.

But if you love wasting money on something you can not tell the differences, it is your problem and not the world problems

 

[audionewbi]

Then again, if you can not tell the differences, why would you be here and wasting your money ?

Like all hobbyist if you spend long enough time in the hobby the subtle things that remain hidden for other will stand out for you.

 

[Mimouille]

I think we are pointlessly arguing because it depends what you put behind words.

Today I compared my SE5 Ultimate on the LPG and the WM1Z. The difference is very small in the sense that if you let a 100 people listen, they will not hear the difference. For me the difference is small BUT it matters quite a lot as it impacts my pleasure and my will to listen to one or the other. Is it worth having both players if you are not insane? Not really...

 

[Whitigir]

Like all hobbyist if you spend long enough time in the hobby the subtle things that remain hidden for other will stand out for you.

Exactly ! It is like everything out there in the real world. Participated, and real experiences go a long the way. That is our nature, we learn, we adapt. Example of martial artists, everyone can practice martial art, and leave all nature talents and gift to be equal for both A and B. If A practiced everyday and even fighting through life/death situations and survive, VS, B who only practice 1 hour a day....the outcome will become very obvious.

You would be surprised by how subtles differences could result in Life/Death outcome. Therefore, subtles differences in audio world would also stand out, just as long As you are much more experienced.


Let's be real, if you can not hear the differences ? You are AudioNewbie, period.

 

[CraftyClown]

  There's some great debating going on here.
 
Bias is real even when the differences are not.  Absolutely.
 
But to say two devices sound the same because their frequency responses are flat is glossing over a lot.  Other factors are significant, particularly when loaded: output impedance, jitter, power supply loading/modulation/layout/noise, distortion and its type and modulation, phase response, layout, RF noise.
 
Most DAPs and phones have a single voltage rail, so they either have capacitors on the headphone output (thankfully rare since Cirrus logic started supplying the ipod classic with its DAC) or they need a charge pumps to make a negative rail.  This is not a good power supply. Balanced output removes the need for this, but rarely does, but adds more output impedance, noise, potential distortion.
 
It's not that simple guys.  There is very little that is simple in portable audio, and portable audio is the simplest field in audio.

 
I'm certainly not saying FR is the be all and end all and I did factor output impedance in as well if you read my earlier posts, but when you take those two out of the equation, the other possible causes of sound alteration are unlikely to cause the kinds of night and day differences some people preach.

 

[Jalo]

Today I compared my SE5 Ultimate on the LPG and the WM1Z. The difference is very small in the sense that if you let a 100 people listen, they will not hear the difference. For me the difference is small BUT it matters quite a lot as it impacts my pleasure and my will to listen to one or the other. Is it worth having both players if you are not insane? Not really...

 
Hahahaha, now we know we are not here in a forum, we are all in an asylum

 

[Whitigir]

FR is going in 500-1k incremental....audio frequency is Sin waves....and all Sin waves have it cycled energies, and peak energies. The same FR in that large scale of incremental could be interpreted differently by Warmth Or Bright, just depend on the way the Sin Waves really are produced.

IMO, FR only give confirmations on sound signature as a whole. The differences between gears are much more sophisticated than that.

If we all can only hear from 100hz and 500hz or 500hz and 1khz and skip everything in between....we would be Deaf, period.

Remember, FR are Tools, and tools are human creations....if yours a human but only relying on your world, you are as much a tool as well....because without creations there wouldn't be tools....luckily Sound and audio is not tools...it is the universe and nature, we only manipulate it.

 

[Mimouille]

Hahahaha, now we know we are not here in a forum, we are all in an asylum

Well obviously, I just bought a 3k player and I am asking myself if NEED to keep the 1.5k one and the Tera player that I use once every two months...

 

[CraftyClown]

I think we are pointlessly arguing because it depends what you put behind words.

Today I compared my SE5 Ultimate on the LPG and the WM1Z. The difference is very small in the sense that if you let a 100 people listen, they will not hear the difference. For me the difference is small BUT it matters quite a lot as it impacts my pleasure and my will to listen to one or the other. Is it worth having both players if you are not insane? Not really...

 

Like all hobbyist if you spend long enough time in the hobby the subtle things that remain hidden for other will stand out for you.

​Again, I agree wholeheartedly with both of you because you are being realistic. You hear small and subtle differences that make a difference to you and enhance your listening pleasure.

 

[T.R.A.N.C.E.]

I think we are pointlessly arguing because it depends what you put behind words.

Today I compared my SE5 Ultimate on the LPG and the WM1Z. The difference is very small in the sense that if you let a 100 people listen, they will not hear the difference. For me the difference is small BUT it matters quite a lot as it impacts my pleasure and my will to listen to one or the other. Is it worth having both players if you are not insane? Not really...

 
Exactly, those arguing that the differences are slight enough to not warrant the need for an audio forum, are correct. Likewise those arguing that the differences are meaningful enough in our particular reality to warrant spending thousands are also correct, but should probably seek mental help*
 
*from head-fi in regards to deciding their next dap purchase.

 

[CraftyClown]

Well obviously, I just bought a 3k player and I am asking myself if NEED to keep the 1.5k one and the Tera player that I use once every two months...

​Don't worry Michael. I'm patiently waiting in the wings to take the LPG off your hands once it starts gathering dust

 

[CraftyClown]

FR is going in 500-1k incremental....audio frequency is Sin waves....and all Sin waves have it cycled energies, and peak energies. The same FR in that large scale of incremental could be interpreted differently by Warmth Or Bright, just depend on the way the Sin Waves really are produced.

IMO, FR only give confirmations on sound signature as a whole. The differences between gears are much more sophisticated than that.

If we all can only hear from 100hz and 500hz or 500hz and 1khz and skip everything in between....we would be Deaf, period.

Remember, FR are Tools, and tools are human creations....if yours a human but only relying on your world, you are as much a tool as well....because without creations there wouldn't be tools....luckily Sound and audio is not tools...it is the universe and nature, we only manipulate it.

​I have literally no idea what you are talking about

 

[Jalo]

Exactly ! It is like everything out there in the real world. Participated, and real experiences go a long the way. That is our nature, we learn, we adapt. Example of martial artists, everyone can practice martial art, and leave all nature talents and gift to be equal for both A and B. If A practiced everyday and even fighting through life/death situations and survive, VS, B who only practice 1 hour a day....the outcome will become very obvious.

You would be surprised by how subtles differences could result in Life/Death outcome. Therefore, subtles differences in audio world would also stand out, just as long As you are much more experienced.


Let's be real, if you can not hear the differences ? You are AudioNewbie, period.

 
Hahahahahahaha, one thing we did learn after the human genome project in the late 90s is that the difference between human and animal (like pigs or dogs) may really be only two or three percents. We audiophiles have been accused of spending insane amount of money to go after that last two or three percents of sound quality. Well think about it, the difference between the last two to three percents may be mean whether you are listening to a Sony 1A/Z or you are being kept in a cage and will you want to make sure that you get the last two to three percent right?

 

[riotgrrl]

Many people say MDR-Z7 are dark sounding... for me is lean- sounding but not too lean to be considered neutral.. and yeah i find them as tested in a noisy environment to fit classical music .

so, this ifght over the grados is a bit like if we were fighting  i find Z7 neutral, and other says Noooo i don't they're dark and bassy

You've never owned the Z7. You've maybe had a short listening test. So I would advise anyone reading his opinion to take it with a large pinch of salt.