[WmAx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Scarpitti Compared to 'flat'. Compared to all the other headphones and speakers I own (or have owned) whose accuracy (or lack thereof) is known to me.

Thank you for finally answering.

My relative comparison was not 'other transducers', but concluded with comparisions as listed prior in this thread by me.

-Chris

 

[JiPi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Scarpitti I bought them twice, because I thought they had some merits. The flaws, however, outweigh their merits. If you're so poor that $65 is all you can afford, you should not be arguing about headphones at all. Only in relation to much better products and lesser-priced ones can one form an intelligent opinion about the merits of this one. My first car was a Volkswagon Beetle. In 1973 I thought it was the best thing in the world, but I now know better....

Anybody said the V6 is the best thing in the world? As far as I know, absolutely not. But what I did see though, are some people saying they are very good cans for their price. Anyway, blabadee, blabada, you've already been hammered with that enough I guess.

But I wanted to point something else out. What is that you said about people not being able to afford more than $65 cans that shouldn't argue about headphones? You can be snob all you want, and play with $9000 wooden tennis rackets, but that's just plain stupid, what you said.

What? Oh, I can hear you go 'But they won't be able to argue because they haven't heard Stax already! OMG, what is the world becoming?!' Sure, they can't compare them to the top-of-the-line-can-of-the-world like you can, but they can still argue wether they like their sound or not. And who knows, MAYBE, just MAYBE, they'll end up agreeing with you and say they are not "fast" enough. Wouldn't you be proud?

 

[nichifanlema]

this post seems like it's heading to personal level criticism....

All we have to do is just remember one thing. It's individual's ears which decides whether a headphone is good or bad. You can state your opinions about it to others, but you can't force it.

I hope all the heated-arguments to end here...There seems no point in continuing this thread....

 

[WmAx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Scarpitti I'm sorry, I don't follow you at all. I understand how the Stax work, and I can hear the benefits when I use them. When I first acquired Stax SRX-III's in 1977, I was astonished at their speed and clarity. I read up about them so I would understand how they work. What fallacy do you find in this?

The fallacy is assuming it's becuase of mass. An ESL transducer is simpler/easer to optimize for good CSD performance compared to a dynamic transducer. A dynamic tranducer, since it usually is not behaving as a piston throughout it's bandwidth, has isses not related directly to total mass of the structure, but with the non uniform behaviour of the diaphgragm. An ESL transducer, due to the lossy mylar or similar plastic film and somewhat uniform movement over the majority of the structure(is not perfectly linear), has fewer potential resonances of the diaphgram. It is possible to design dynamic transducers that perform at the same level as ESL units, but is more complex.

-CHris

 

[Mike Scarpitti]

Quote:

Originally Posted by WmAx The fallacy is assuming it's becuase of mass. An ESL transducer is simpler/easer to optimize for good CSD performance compared to a dynamic transducer. A dynamic tranducer, since it usually is not behaving as a piston throughout it's bandwidth, has isses not related directly to total mass of the structure, but with the non uniform behaviour of the diaphgragm. An ESL transducer, due to the lossy mylar or similar plastic film and somewhat uniform movement over the majority of the structure(is not perfectly linear), has fewer potential resonances of the diaphgram. It is possible to design dynamic transducers that perform at the same level as ESL units, but is more complex. -CHris

Stax CLAIMS it's because of mass. The entire enterprise of electrostatic headphones is directed at lowering the moving mass. Stax points out that the thickness of their diaphragms has been lowered again and again, resulting in lower mass and clearer sound.

See:

http://www.stax.co.jp/ENG/Signature-E.html

 

[WmAx]

Do you mean that you automaticly believe claims of a company without substantiation? I would expect that they woulud want to lower mass(especially on speakers) since this raises efficiency -- a real problem.

-Chris

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Scarpitti Stax CLAIMS it's because of mass. The entire enterprise of electrostatic headphones is directed at lowering the moving mass. Stax points out that the thickness of their diaphragms has been lowered again and again, resulting in lower mass and clearer sound. See: http://www.stax.co.jp/ENG/Signature-E.html

 

[Mike Scarpitti]

Quote:

Originally Posted by WmAx Do you mean that you automaticly believe claims of a company without substantiation? I would expect that they woulud want to lower mass(especially on speakers) since this raises efficiency -- a real problem. -Chris

No, of course not. I believe what my ears tell me, and my ears tell me that the Stax is fast...

 

[WmAx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Scarpitti No, of course not. I believe what my ears tell me, and my ears tell me that the Stax is fast...

So how did you come to conclusion that mass alone dictacted potential acceleration/decalleration of an object? Did your ears tell you that Stax defy laws of physics? Or did you accidentally violate your own standards you listed a couple of replies back? Actually, this has nothing to with hearing anything; only the claims you made in respect to physical laws.

-Chris

 

[zeplin]

nichifanmela...I do not wish this to end here as it is bothering me about the way Mikes brain is working in terms of how he perceives everyone should think of the V6.

Quote:

You can state your opinions about it to others, but you can't force it.

The problem is, this is what Mike is doing! He thinks since graphs "prove" (in his own mind) that the V6's have major flaws, that they are in fact filled with flaws no matter what, regardless of what anyone says...even if they think those "flaws" are strengths in the V6! Mike has had a real problems like this in the past a lot of times and he still can't seem to get the big picture here.

Mike,
First, since when do graphs accurately show the be all and end all negatives and positives of a headphone. You know as well as I do that many headphones frequency graphs have major dips, bumps, and curves in them to indicate that it sounds a certain way. All headphones have boosted or majorly reduced freuencies. I could say that your eggo's have too much of a dip in certain frequency ranges that make them sound too lite, thin, and lifeless, which is the impression I got after barrowing them for a long time from a friend. This to me, qualifies as major flaws in a headphone. But what's this, I have no problem with how much you like them. And I would never state that even though you like them so much, they still have dips in certain frequency ranges and thus are majorly flawed and therefore not good headphones at all, period, no doubt about it, no questions asked. I feel the complete opposite! What you like is what you like and that's all that matters. All headphones have irregularities that make them sound unique in their own way in order to cader towards certain people's opinions on how they think their headphones should sound. But do you see anyone else definitively stating that any headphones with irregularities (dips, spikes, +db, or -db) in their frequency response graphs are without a doubt flawed and therefore unlistenable and should be seen as a good headphone at all? You see, certain flaws may be what another person sees as strengths in a headphone. And certain strengths that you perceive in your eggos are what many see as major flaws. What I'm wondering is, why can you not get this through your head after so much drilling??? Just because you can find "proof" in frequency graphs to back your claim that the V6's are unlistenable, doesn't mean that those perceived weaknesses can't be enjoyed by another. This is what this website is full of...subjective opinions. And nobody has ever questioned someone else's subjective opinions like you have and are doing now. I've never seen it before and quite frankly, I'm getting sick of your closed mindedness.

Also, don't even say that a person who has not owned a very "top-of-the-line headphone cannot ever subject their opinions on this website when comparing certain headphones. It doesn't matter what headphones a person has heard. You are the one who is suppose automatically take that into consideration when reading someone's opinion about a headphone. That is disgusting what you said, and I hope you never say that again as it might deter certain new comers to not post their opinions due to your snobish nature. You don't like or agree with a person's opinion, then don't read it. It's not your choice to choose whether a person should write his or her opinion about a headphone. And I'm glad it's not your choice because we would see no one but the people who own the most expensive headphones posting on this website in accordance to your again, snobbish "rules." Another thing, since when does price properly put into context of what a headphone should sound like or of what category it should reside in? That doesn't make any sense either because your precious eggos are a perfect example of a headphone that far exceeds the expectations of headphones in that prce category, according to you. Truthfully, I'm very happy that you've found this in a headphone that costs as much as it does, which also happens to match what your ideal sound should be like in a headphone. But again, stop trying to believe you can force others to believe in what you perceive as a bad headphone and at the same time, making it sound as if it is set in stone. Because no matter what you say in however many ways you say it, and no matter how many frequency graphs you present to back [size=medium]YOUR OPINIONS[/size], your opinion does not matter and is not the cold hard "truth" in the face of someone who enjoys the sound of the V6! And this does not just go for the V6...it goes for any headphone. So don't think I'm trying to back up the V6 with all my heart. It is the principle of the matter that you seem to think is set in stone that I am questioning and correcting. Once and for all, get it through your head Mike!!! Or are you even capable of this at all?

 

[Mike Scarpitti]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeplin nichifanmela...I do not wish this to end here as it is bothering me about the way Mikes brain is working in terms of how he perceives everyone should think of the V6. The problem is, this is what Mike is doing! He thinks since graphs "prove" (in his own mind) that the V6's have major flaws, that they are in fact filled with flaws no matter what, regardless of what anyone says...even if they think those "flaws" are strengths in the V6! Mike has had a real problems like this in the past a lot of times and he still can't seem to get the big picture here. Mike, First, since when do graphs accurately show the be all and end all negatives and positives of a headphone. You know as well as I do that many headphones frequency graphs have major dips, bumps, and curves in them to indicate that it sounds a certain way. All headphones have boosted or majorly reduced freuencies. I could say that your eggo's have too much of a dip in certain frequency ranges that make them sound too lite, thin, and lifeless, which is the impression I got after barrowing them for a long time from a friend. This to me, qualifies as major flaws in a headphone. But what's this, I have no problem with how much you like them. And I would never state that even though you like them so much, they still have dips in certain frequency ranges and thus are majorly flawed and therefore not good headphones at all, period, no doubt about it, no questions asked. I feel the complete opposite! What you like is what you like and that's all that matters. All headphones have irregularities that make them sound unique in their own way in order to cader towards certain people's opinions on how they think their headphones should sound. But do you see anyone else definitively stating that any headphones with irregularities (dips, spikes, +db, or -db) in their frequency response graphs are without a doubt flawed and therefore unlistenable and should be seen as a good headphone at all? You see, certain flaws may be what another person sees as strengths in a headphone. And certain strengths that you perceive in your eggos are what many see as major flaws. What I'm wondering is, why can you not get this through your head after so much drilling??? Just because you can find "proof" in frequency graphs to back your claim that the V6's are unlistenable, doesn't mean that those perceived weaknesses can't be enjoyed by another. This is what this website is full of...subjective opinions. And nobody has ever questioned someone else's subjective opinions like you have and are doing now. I've never seen it before and quite frankly, I'm getting sick of your closed mindedness. Also, don't even say that a person who has not owned a very "top-of-the-line headphone cannot ever subject their opinions on this website when comparing certain headphones. It doesn't matter what headphones a person has heard. You are the one who is suppose automatically take that into consideration when reading someone's opinion about a headphone. That is disgusting what you said, and I hope you never say that again as it might deter certain new comers to not post their opinions due to your snobish nature. You don't like or agree with a person's opinion, then don't read it. It's not your choice to choose whether a person should write his or her opinion about a headphone. And I'm glad it's not your choice because we would see no one but the people who own the most expensive headphones posting on this website in accordance to your again, snobbish "rules." Another thing, since when does price properly put into context of what a headphone should sound like or of what category it should reside in? That doesn't make any sense either because your precious eggos are a perfect example of a headphone that far exceeds the expectations of headphones in that prce category, according to you. Truthfully, I'm very happy that you've found this in a headphone that costs as much as it does, which also happens to match what your ideal sound should be like in a headphone. But again, stop trying to believe you can force others to believe in what you perceive as a bad headphone and at the same time, making it sound as if it is set in stone. Because no matter what you say in however many ways you say it, and no matter how many frequency graphs you present to back [size=medium]YOUR OPINIONS[/size], your opinion does not matter and is not the cold hard "truth" in the face of someone who enjoys the sound of the V6! And this does not just go for the V6...it goes for any headphone. So don't think I'm trying to back up the V6 with all my heart. It is the principle of the matter that you seem to think is set in stone that I am questioning and correcting. Once and for all, get it through your head Mike!!! Or are you even capable of this at all?

What graphs are you discussing? I did not raise the subject of graphs. Of course, all headphones have variations in frequency response (FR) that deviate from flat. The location, breadth, and amplitude of those deviations is what matters. The V6's have (not 'I think they have') a pronounced peak in the upper-midrange/treble and a big, sloppy, wet bass. These characteristics mean that the mid-range is supressed, the bass is boomy, and the highs are screechy. Nor do FR graphs show the 'speed' of a headphone, which in the case of the V6 is noticeably on the slow side. Sony has manufactured numerous other, better, headphones with exotic diaphragm materials (inter alia, saphire, diamond, biocellulose) to address this problem.

You may note that in the past I did recommend this headphone, but I have come to the concluion that its flaws are too much to take on a long-term basis. (It may impress people on a short-term basis, but it quickly wearies.) I thus no longer recommend this headphone.

Your impressions of the Eggos may be affected by hearing what other, inferior models do. Did you listen to D-77's? These are among the cleanest, flattest, fastest headphones I have ever heard, period. They are amazingly good, second only to the MDR-CD1000 and the Stax Lambdas.

I have not intended to mean that anyone's opinion is unwelcome, but that the opinions of those whose experience is limited to low-end headphones does not carry very much weight.

 

[JiPi]

This is getting nowhere. Can a mod please close this thread and burry it very deep in a thread cemetary? A lot of people are trying to explain stuff, white gloves and all, and all they get in return is 'The V6's do have a certain lack of speed.'

Pathetic <sigh>

 

[Eagle_Driver]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Scarpitti I have not intended to mean that anyone's opinion is unwelcome, but that the opinions of those whose experience is limited to low-end headphones does not carry very much weight.

I agree with this statement. But also, the opinions of those precious few whose experience is limited to headphones which are so astronomically expensive that nobody could even come close to affording them afford them do not carry much weight, either - because hardly anybody would even get to listen to them, and many of those ultra-high-end-only people would dismiss even upper-middle-line headphones as "horrible" or "crap" without even listening to them at all whatsoever!

And sadly, in my judgment those people whose experience is limited to low-end headphones constitute more than 99.999% of the entire U.S. population.

That is partly because they just don't care at all whatsoever about sound quality, and partly because the only retailers (that they know of) where they could even get headphones all suck really badly.

With this statement, I am closing this thread. If anyone disagrees with the points that I made in this post, please feel free to PM me.