[neilvg]

For me it's about the Upper Mid's and the High's that I notice first. When you did your comparison what did you notice about this? For me the Senn HE series is SO fast and extended with an effortless feel that neither of the other two headphones gets. IE, the L3000 can sound sluggish and 'goopy' with the wrong amp or even the 'wrong' music. Also, it's not the most revealing headphone, specifically, it doesn't approach any sort of electrostatic speed and clarity. The R10 is a little better at this I recall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trogdor Well I did a side by side with the L3000 and Orpheus and it was NOT night and day for me. Sure, the Orpheus overall sounded bigger, the bass was as extended as the L3000 but tighter. However, in the mids section I thought both were pretty close as I would suspect with most of the high-end headphones (the majority of music is in this area). What strikes me as the most amazing quality of the Orpheus is its hyper active response time. No matter what I listened to, nothing phased it; the attack and decay were amazing (I suspect this is very dependent on the amp as well). Again, to really judge and rate these cans one needs weeks to enjoy them and then come up with their top 5 list. The cans mentioned in this thread are all I would think esoteric. What amazes most about high-end headphones is their ability to put some of the small subtieties one finds in analytical listening right in the forefront. With that said, as Hirsch said in another thread, one can not really just rate headphones without looking at the whole system (amp, source, etc.). The wrong combo can create a skewed view of what a certain pair of headphones are capable especially some of the high-end headphones which are typically more depending due to their market segment.

 

[Nik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg For me it's about the Upper Mid's and the High's that I notice first. When you did your comparison what did you notice about this? For me the Senn HE series is SO fast and extended with an effortless feel that neither of the other two headphones gets. IE, the L3000 can sound sluggish and 'goopy' with the wrong amp or even the 'wrong' music. Also, it's not the most revealing headphone, specifically, it doesn't approach any sort of electrostatic speed and clarity. The R10 is a little better at this I recall.

...that "electrostatic speed and clarity", right! Are just what I do not like, and for this I prefer the intimacy of the L3000.

The direct and fast comparison between two (or more) so differents cans, do not help to understand the respectives qualities... (IMHO).

Best!
Nicola

 

[markl]

The R10s suck.

























[size=medium]NOT![/size]

 

[raisin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trogdor Well I did a side by side with the L3000 and Orpheus

We are lucky, lucky, people!

 

[Trogdor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg For me it's about the Upper Mid's and the High's that I notice first. When you did your comparison what did you notice about this? For me the Senn HE series is SO fast and extended with an effortless feel that neither of the other two headphones gets.

You got it. I make NO pretense that I'm an expert on this can. But in my listening sessions with this esoteric can, their quickness is what grabs you. We were playing Dream Theater's Train of Thought (I think "As I Am" and I know I switched it to "Dying Soul") and the absolute handle these phones had on some of the drum and guitar work was outstanding. I was outright amazed on how they attack the music. Neither the L3000 nor the R10 feel that way (I had more time with the L3000 thanks to raisin!).

With that said, in the midrange, especially vocals, I thought the L3000 and R10 shined brillantly and helds it own to the Orpheus. However, the Orpheus had a bigger soundstage than even the R10, one of its real strong suits and I believe true design characteristic (all that damn wood!).

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg IE, the L3000 can sound sluggish and 'goopy' with the wrong amp or even the 'wrong' music. Also, it's not the most revealing headphone, specifically, it doesn't approach any sort of electrostatic speed and clarity. The R10 is a little better at this I recall.

Both the R10 and L3000 introduct their own fuzz, no doubt. With that said, its not the amp (well it is, but I believe your comment applies to most headphones), but also the music.

For example, when we were doing a side-by-side of the Orpheus and L3000 playing Natalie Merchant, I thought both were outstanding. This type of music is not going to really utilize or press the HE90's lightening quick dynamics. Again, this is all first impression stuff and maybe with extended listening time I could drill down explaining their unique characteristics.

The Orpheus is typical of esoteric audio. Many products probably give 90% plus of what the Orpheus can deliever, its that extra certain percentage that costs so darn much!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nik ...that "electrostatic speed and clarity", right! Are just what I do not like, and for this I prefer the intimacy of the L3000.

Intimacy by definition is very personal. Your feelings are very relative and can even change depending on the tubes you roll right? Again, I've always thought the REAL allure of the Grado RS-1 is its ability to envelope the listener in the music and create a certain level of intimacy. This has more to do with its coloration (fuzz) and its forward presentation of the music. Again, not for everyone, but can be very seductive (especially connected to a nice amp like the Raptor).

Following htis line of thinking, the L3000 accomplishes in a different way. Unlike the RS-1, its soundstage is much bigger but not lazy. The bass is more extended, not as tight as some other cans, but there is some fuzz there that creates a very warm sound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by raisin Well I did a side by side with the L3000 and Orpheus

Yes we are. I really do have to thank you and Hirsch again for letting me play with all that cool stuff. Very informative. Hope to see you guys at the next meet and the National Head-Fi meet in NY.

 

[Nik]

Yes, "Intimacy by definition is very personal", but I doubt that nobody can describe one electrostatic as a intimacy cans... I think!

The Qualia is not a intimacy can, the K1000 too, the Staxes or the Sennheisers...

The RS1 or the R10, yes they are intimacy cans but not at the same level of the L3000...

Just my two cents...

Best!
Nicola

 

[Trogdor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nik Yes, "Intimacy by definition is very personal", but I doubt that nobody can describe one electrostatic as a intimacy cans... I think!

To each his own, I can't speak for the electrostatic folks! Be nice to hear from some OII lovers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nik The RS1 or the R10, yes they are intimacy cans but not at the same level of the L3000...

I would need more time with the L3000 to really understand all of this. I can say I preferred my RS-1 to the R10 but that's just me. With that said, I think I completely understand what the R10 brings to the table which is impressive in its own right.

Trogdor

 

[neilvg]

Nice post. We'll be having a mini-meet this weekend which will include (among others) the HE90, HE60, L3000 and the Blue Hawaii, HEV70, DHA3000 respectively. Also we have an EMP AE with some electro-harmonix so hopefully a good comparison can be had.

I am especially interested in hearing the differences between the HE90/60 out of the BH. I have heard some comments, but I haven't heard the 60's out of anything other than the HEV70.

Also, he L3k's can be warm, to me they can almost be excessively warm with certain material and although we are all sensitive to midrange emphasis, I feel I am especially so, and the L3k's project a very forward presentation around 600hz-1.8khz but especially around 600hz-1khz. Part of me thinks that a very fast (with transients etc...) solid state amp (ie DHA3000) may present a very different picture with L3k's.

We'll have to see...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trogdor You got it. I make NO pretense that I'm an expert on this can. But in my listening sessions with this esoteric can, their quickness is what grabs you. We were playing Dream Theater's Train of Thought (I think "As I Am" and I know I switched it to "Dying Soul") and the absolute handle these phones had on some of the drum and guitar work was outstanding. I was outright amazed on how they attack the music. Neither the L3000 nor the R10 feel that way (I had more time with the L3000 thanks to raisin!). With that said, in the midrange, especially vocals, I thought the L3000 and R10 shined brillantly and helds it own to the Orpheus. However, the Orpheus had a bigger soundstage than even the R10, one of its real strong suits and I believe true design characteristic (all that damn wood!). Both the R10 and L3000 introduct their own fuzz, no doubt. With that said, its not the amp (well it is, but I believe your comment applies to most headphones), but also the music. For example, when we were doing a side-by-side of the Orpheus and L3000 playing Natalie Merchant, I thought both were outstanding. This type of music is not going to really utilize or press the HE90's lightening quick dynamics. Again, this is all first impression stuff and maybe with extended listening time I could drill down explaining their unique characteristics. The Orpheus is typical of esoteric audio. Many products probably give 90% plus of what the Orpheus can deliever, its that extra certain percentage that costs so darn much! Intimacy by definition is very personal. Your feelings are very relative and can even change depending on the tubes you roll right? Again, I've always thought the REAL allure of the Grado RS-1 is its ability to envelope the listener in the music and create a certain level of intimacy. This has more to do with its coloration (fuzz) and its forward presentation of the music. Again, not for everyone, but can be very seductive (especially connected to a nice amp like the Raptor). Following htis line of thinking, the L3000 accomplishes in a different way. Unlike the RS-1, its soundstage is much bigger but not lazy. The bass is more extended, not as tight as some other cans, but there is some fuzz there that creates a very warm sound. Yes we are. I really do have to thank you and Hirsch again for letting me play with all that cool stuff. Very informative. Hope to see you guys at the next meet and the National Head-Fi meet in NY.

 

[Giteet]

Since ayt999 also has an R10 (along with the L3000, HE90, Omega II and many more nice cans) there will be opportunities for comparisons from many people at the upcoming SF mini-meet. I know NeilPeart is interested in attending and he may take me as I'm saying with him right now for vacation.

 

[raisin]

Intimacy, is dead on, in describing the attraction of the L3000. Comfortable and capable soundstage filled with warm soothing mids and bass, with a natural tubey sound quality. High's are smooth and sweet, never sibilant. As Trogdor noted, there's some fuzz going on here.

 

[neilvg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giteet Since ayt999 also has an R10 (along with the L3000, HE90, Omega II and many more nice cans) there will be opportunities for comparisons from many people at the upcoming SF mini-meet. I know NeilPeart is interested in attending and he may take me as I'm saying with him right now for vacation.

Yeah but Alex will probably only bring a 'few' things. I haven't asked him about the R10. But definitely come along, and bring NeilPeart.

 

[Trogdor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg Nice post.

This has been quite a fascinating thread! Even in the esoteric crowd, opinions vary widely! Clearly, the Orpheus is not by all means the end of the journey....just really farther along the quest than others!

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg We'll be having a mini-meet this weekend which will include (among others) the HE90, HE60, L3000 and the Blue Hawaii, HEV70, DHA3000 respectively. Also we have an EMP AE with some electro-harmonix so hopefully a good comparison can be had.

Wow, please post all the impressions. I'd be really curious about the L3000 vs. HE90 vs. HE60 comparo. I think you will be shocked on how strong the L3000 is in the midarea. I don't think its quite as fast in its attack/decay as the HE90 but its no slouch.

Trust me, I generally thought Audio-Technica really doesn't make high-end heapdhones (they are the mass market Japanese brand). However, I was pleasantly suprised that the L3000 was not just all leather but offered a unique listening experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg I am especially interested in hearing the differences between the HE90/60 out of the BH. I have heard some comments, but I haven't heard the 60's out of anything other than the HEV70.

Never heard the BH but from what I read, its quite an experience.

Quote:

Also, he L3k's can be warm, to me they can almost be excessively warm with certain material and although we are all sensitive to midrange emphasis, I feel I am especially so, and the L3k's project a very forward presentation around 600hz-1.8khz but especially around 600hz-1khz. Part of me thinks that a very fast (with transients etc...) solid state amp (ie DHA3000) may present a very different picture with L3k's. We'll have to see...

Indeed! As raisin points out, the allure is in this lushness you get instantly with the can. I believe its goes with the whole theme (physically and accoustically comfortable).

Hopefully this doesn't come off as an insult to L3K owners, but at this point I think the ultimate Sennheiser phone is the R10 while the ultimate Grado is the L3K. YMMV.

Trogdor

 

[neilvg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trogdor Hopefully this doesn't come off as an insult to L3K owners, but at this point I think the ultimate Sennheiser phone is the R10 while the ultimate Grado is the L3K. YMMV. Trogdor

HAHAHAHAHA... if anyone, new to headphones, were reading this thread and innocently trying to gather knowledge of phones and then runs across a statement like that... hehehe.. Nice one, we'll have to see how well it holds up though, especially sicne I really like the Sen sound and I'm not to hot on Grado, but I don't think the Grado's shine with midrange warmth like the L3k's do.

 

[Trogdor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg HAHAHAHAHA... if anyone, new to headphones, were reading this thread and innocently trying to gather knowledge of phones and then runs across a statement like that... hehehe..

Whoops, your right, newbees don't apply!

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg Nice one, we'll have to see how well it holds up though, especially sicne I really like the Sen sound and I'm not to hot on Grado, but I don't think the Grado's shine with midrange warmth like the L3k's do.

Time to incite a riot: I think Grado's shine a lot more in this area of the spectrum than the darker Sennheiser club. In other words, the Grado's are closer to the L3K flavor than Senns.

Trogdor

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg We'll be having a mini-meet this weekend which will include (among others) the HE90, HE60, L3000 and the Blue Hawaii, HEV70, DHA3000 respectively.

Looking forward to your impressions on all that equipment guys.

One thing, I do remember from my listening to Alex equipment, his Blue Hawaii seemed rolled-off some how in the highs, at least compared to all the dynamic setups with R10 HP2 that I listened to in his place. Believe it or not I can't remember what electrostat headphones I listened to though, can't really remember if it was the HE90 or some Staxes (or maybe both actually?). But in any case, I do remember for some reason (maybe the tubes) the electrostat setup seemed slightly rolled off in the upper treble. Remember this comment Alex? (By the way I still haven't posted the couple of pics I took that day, here they are: pic1, and pic2)