[Koukol]

I don't know how reliable these measurements are but it least it might be a data point for you:

http://graphs.headphone.com/index.php?graphID[0]=573&graphID[1]=&graphID[2]=&graphID[3]=&scale=30&graphType=0&buttonSelection=Update+Graph

For my HD580s, which are similar to your HD600s, on my Behringer DEQ2496 DSP I pretty much just bring up the low bass a little and the upper treble up a little and it helps anyway. It gets you closer. That's good enough for me.

If anyone has any comment on how reliable the Headroom measurements are I'd be interested. I've never been quite sure.

--Steve

Cheers.
But it's what my 600's should be (and how to adjust it) that I would love to know.

I'm pretty sure it's going to be, like you said, boosting the bass and treble but also slightly reducing around 250hz to reduce muddiness.

 

[Steve999]

I've actually got a carefully set HD580 curve on my DEQ2496 that I worked on many years ago, if I haven't messed it up. I'll take a look tomorrow. It's by my bedside.

Cheers.
But it's what my 600's should be (and how to adjust it) that I would love to know.

I'm pretty sure it's going to be, like you said, boosting the bass and treble but also slightly reducing around 250hz to reduce muddiness.

 

[Zapp_Fan]

Thanks for chiming in CF.



I fail to see how Sonarworks could know what the intention of all the recordings were throughout time.

The short answer is that any deviation from a neutral frequency response is characterized as a deviation from what the artist intended. Or, in other words, only a truly neutral, linear, and transparent response can be considered ideal in the sense of changing the original recording as little as possible before it reaches your ears.

This is backed up by the fact that pretty much every studio in the world strives to have flat / neutral monitoring equipment. (read some reviews of monitors on Sound on Sound to get the gist of this.) This is necessary because if your studio monitors e.g. have extra bass, the resulting mastered recording will not have enough bass. The engineers will mix / master so it sounds good in the studio. But in order to have it sound good elsewhere, the studio gear needs to be as neutral as possible.

So if you also have a neutral response on playback, in theory that should have less deviation from what was heard in the studio.

This is not necessarily a guarantee of enjoyable playback, but the basic philosophy is not very controversial.

 

[castleofargh]

the philosophy is rock solid. the uncertainty comes from trying to answer question: what is neutral on a headphone? a question which does not have a unique answer because people have different HRTFs.
so it always comes down to a specific target trying to satisfy the average head objectively or subjectively, and each listener finding out if he's a fit for that target or not. that alone more than justifies having a free trial for anything with a universal compensation or simulation.

 

[TheSonicTruth]

the philosophy is rock solid. the uncertainty comes from trying to answer question: what is neutral on a headphone? a question which does not have a unique answer because people have different HRTFs.
so it always comes down to a specific target trying to satisfy the average head objectively or subjectively, and each listener finding out if he's a fit for that target or not. that alone more than justifies having a free trial for anything with a universal compensation or simulation.

HRTF is indeed a big factor. I don't know if the Sonar works EQ takes that into account.

Additionally, I'd venture that to engineer a headphone as flat as Sonar Works Tru-Fi in the first place, only the very wealthy could probably afford it, lol!

 

[Koukol]

The short answer is that any deviation from a neutral frequency response is characterized as a deviation from what the artist intended. Or, in other words, only a truly neutral, linear, and transparent response can be considered ideal in the sense of changing the original recording as little as possible before it reaches your ears.

This is backed up by the fact that pretty much every studio in the world strives to have flat / neutral monitoring equipment. (read some reviews of monitors on Sound on Sound to get the gist of this.) This is necessary because if your studio monitors e.g. have extra bass, the resulting mastered recording will not have enough bass. The engineers will mix / master so it sounds good in the studio. But in order to have it sound good elsewhere, the studio gear needs to be as neutral as possible.

So if you also have a neutral response on playback, in theory that should have less deviation from what was heard in the studio.

This is not necessarily a guarantee of enjoyable playback, but the basic philosophy is not very controversial.

Thanks for chiming in.

Yes, this is what I've always thought.
I said earlier I use not only flat monitors but also what I presumed was flat HP's designed for mixing when recording.
These are a version of the AKG's I'm talking about.
I actually have two versions along with a "beater" for tracking along and my said pair of room monitors.
Here is one of the cans I'm talking about.
https://www.long-mcquade.com/21451/..._Impedance_Professional_Studio_Headphones.htm

And yes, I wouldn't recommend these cans for musical enjoyment.

So now I'm left with two questions...

1) Are the above HP's (and others sold for mixing) as neutral as room monitors?

2) If a neutral speaker (whether room or HP) gives us the most accurate representation of what the recording intended (I didn't say Artist because often they don't get what they want)...how can Sonarworks claim they're giving us just that when boosting the bass and treble on all my HP's?

 

[Koukol]

HRTF is indeed a big factor. I don't know if the Sonar works EQ takes that into account.

Additionally, I'd venture that to engineer a headphone as flat as Sonar Works Tru-Fi in the first place, only the very wealthy could probably afford it, lol!

This confuses me.
How is Tru Fi "flat" when it boosts the bass and treble on all the HP's I loaded?

 

[Zapp_Fan]

1) Are the above HP's (and others sold for mixing) as neutral as room monitors?

2) If a neutral speaker (whether room or HP) gives us the most accurate representation of what the recording intended (I didn't say Artist because often they don't get what they want)...how can Sonarworks claim they're giving us just that when boosting the bass and treble on all my HP's?

1) Basically no, although not because of nominal frequency response - which is probably pretty flat. Basically, headphones don't sound like speakers. The FR of a headphone might be ruler-flat (compensated for a general HRTF or not) but you still have to deal with the fact that you're getting what amounts to dual mono (one channel per ear) rather than both channels reaching both ears. This wildly skews the perception of stereo image, and to some extent even changes the perceived frequency response. There is also the partial bypassing of your HRTF, meaning the same set of headphones will sound different to different people in a way that speakers don't.

There is also the fact that (some low but noticeable amount of) reflected sound from the room is considered important to a mix and overall sound of a recording. There is zero, or very close to zero of this on headphones, so it again skews the response away from neutral.

Keep in mind that "neutral" in this context means "doesn't deviate from how the monitor speakers sounded in a recording studio", so the mere fact of using headphones is arguably not neutral. Correcting FR does help but it's like adding turn signals and a motor to a bicycle - it's still not a car.

2) I assume this is because the bass and treble are below what you'd experience from a truly flat speaker in a well-treated room, but I'm just speculating on that. That point alone doesn't necessarily surprise me.

 

[TheSonicTruth]

This confuses me.
How is Tru Fi "flat" when it boosts the bass and treble on all the HP's I loaded?

Hellooo? That just means that those headphones were deficient in the very low end of the audio spectrum.

 

[bigshot]

Are you suggesting studio monitors from the likes of Tannoy etc still need to be calibrated?

Absolutely. The second you put a speaker in a room, the response changes. The room has as much effect on the sound as the speakers do. If you're going to mix for commercial release, your system needs to be calibrated to a balanced response.

Flat is the same as balanced. When you listen to music on calibrated speakers the sound should be absolutely perfect... no need to add or subtract anything. It's the ideal way for the music to sound according to the engineers and artists who recorded it.

Headphones are not controllable enough to be fully calibrated. That's why only speakers should be used to monitor in the studio.

 

[castleofargh]

Thanks for chiming in.

Yes, this is what I've always thought.
I said earlier I use not only flat monitors but also what I presumed was flat HP's designed for mixing when recording.
These are a version of the AKG's I'm talking about.
I actually have two versions along with a "beater" for tracking along and my said pair of room monitors.
Here is one of the cans I'm talking about.
https://www.long-mcquade.com/21451/..._Impedance_Professional_Studio_Headphones.htm

And yes, I wouldn't recommend these cans for musical enjoyment.

So now I'm left with two questions...

1) Are the above HP's (and others sold for mixing) as neutral as room monitors?

2) If a neutral speaker (whether room or HP) gives us the most accurate representation of what the recording intended (I didn't say Artist because often they don't get what they want)...how can Sonarworks claim they're giving us just that when boosting the bass and treble on all my HP's?

I'd guess that a certain bass boost is one of the commonly accepted desired response on headphones. preferences seem clear on this if we believe Harman's research. and even the argument that the lack of tactile bass on headphones can subjectively be partially compensated by a bass boost, is IMO a reasonable case for some moderate low end boost above what would strictly feel neutral by ear. and of course if we're talking dynamic drivers, then they can all do with a little help in the bass to sub roll off.

as for trebles boost, if it seemed independent of headphone, could it perhaps be related to the age setting thingy they have on the app? I believe that this poorly labelled setting is basically a treble boost.

 

[bigshot]

A room tends to swallow the highest frequencies and bloom in the lowest. Headphones don't do that.

 

[Koukol]

1) Basically no, although not because of nominal frequency response - which is probably pretty flat. Basically, headphones don't sound like speakers. The FR of a headphone might be ruler-flat (compensated for a general HRTF or not) but you still have to deal with the fact that you're getting what amounts to dual mono (one channel per ear) rather than both channels reaching both ears. This wildly skews the perception of stereo image, and to some extent even changes the perceived frequency response. There is also the partial bypassing of your HRTF, meaning the same set of headphones will sound different to different people in a way that speakers don't.

There is also the fact that (some low but noticeable amount of) reflected sound from the room is considered important to a mix and overall sound of a recording. There is zero, or very close to zero of this on headphones, so it again skews the response away from neutral.

Keep in mind that "neutral" in this context means "doesn't deviate from how the monitor speakers sounded in a recording studio", so the mere fact of using headphones is arguably not neutral. Correcting FR does help but it's like adding turn signals and a motor to a bicycle - it's still not a car.

2) I assume this is because the bass and treble are below what you'd experience from a truly flat speaker in a well-treated room, but I'm just speculating on that. That point alone doesn't necessarily surprise me.

Yes, cross fade has already been brought up along with bass management.
But then all HP's are a compromise.
We can only strive for what the recorders intended with all the variables including those not discussed here.

But I think I've had a eureka! moment when you said "...truly flat speaker in a well-treated room..."
It was the well treated room part.
I had no idea there was a standard for speaker placement, room size along and absorption among studios.
It sounds like this is what Tru Fi has factored in hence the bass boost.

I'm sure some others here have tried explaining the same thing to me

OK so now the questions for me remain...

1) When people talk about correcting the EQ curve of our HP's does this take everything into account?

2) Since I listen to music mostly on DAP's can I add Tru-Fi to a DAP or is there a DAP with it built in?

Cheers

 

[bigshot]

[1) When people talk about correcting the EQ curve of our HP's does this take everythinginto account?
2) Since I listen to music mostly on DAP's can I add Tru-Fi to a DAP or is there a DAP with it built in?

When you EQ for headphones, you are correcting the response of the headphone as far as headphones are capable of reproducing sound. There are things speakers do that headphones can't, so obviously those things aren't being corrected.

Most digital EQ comes as apps that you run on your phone or iPod. So if you can run apps, there is probably an EQ app for your device.

 

[Zapp_Fan]

OK so now the questions for me remain...

1) When people talk about correcting the EQ curve of our HP's does this take everything into account?

2) Since I listen to music mostly on DAP's can I add Tru-Fi to a DAP or is there a DAP with it built in?

Cheers

1) Hmm, maybe, probably not. Taking "everything" into account would even add some artificial reverb, not to mention crossfeed, HRTF correction, etc etc. Suffice it to say that bridging the gap is a big can of worms. It's almost impossible to simulate listening to speakers with a pair of headphones. If their manual / materials don't mention correcting for something, assume it is not corrected.

My personal view is that trying to make a headphone sound exactly like monitor speakers is more trouble than it's worth. A good headphone that's EQ'd to something close to flat to your ear is about as good as one can hope for from a headphone, (assuming good phase response, low distortion, and good dynamics...) from there you can experiment with crossfeed, but at that point you may encounter more philosophical questions than technical or practical ones.

2) Don't know, depends on the DAP. If the DAP is android-based, my answer is "maybe" but actually I have no idea.