Some Thoughts on the Harman Target
Mar 27, 2021 at 7:43 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 10

csglinux

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It seems it's open season on the Harman target. Every reviewer and his dog now has something 'better'. And then there's this epic rant:



Despite the fact I wish hawaiibadboy wouldn't say '****' quite as much (I guess he has to keep up the bad boy persona?), he's actually one of the few reviewers worth watching because he doesn't just endlessly shill a supply of free review samples. But I need to push back a bit on his main claim that 249 people isn't a large-enough sample size. We simply can't know what the confidence intervals would be without at least knowing the variance from that sample. One thing's for sure, it's a sample size 248 data points larger than any other reviewer's 'improvement'. As individuals, our preference targets might not perfectly correlate with Harman, but that's not the point of the Harman target. Yes, we'd want a better curve for each of us individually (more on this below), but it's also interesting and relevant to know what the average preference would be. I'm perfectly happy that outliers like the RHA CL2 exist - life would be boring if everybody was doing a Moondrop and trying to perfectly match the same target with every single headphone ever released - however, averages should be relevant to us, and to OEMs, especially if they're trying to appeal to the widest-possible market.

Here's one curious observation (some of you may even be able to try this at home). Take any recent IEM measurement database (anybody's), and average the entire set and see what graph shape you come up with. It won't be that different from the Harman target - and I don't think this is a coincidence. Even if a headphone manufacturer didn't know what the Harman target was, it's a safe bet they would at least try to build/tune something that sounded reasonable - at least to them. If you average enough samples, outliers get effectively filtered out.

So I have a request for any interested headfiers. It's not going to be easy get 250+ people together in an anechoic chamber with perfect SPL-control and an arbitrary parametric eq system during a pandemic, but I believe there's a way of approximately establishing individual and (with enough data points) average preference curves. This is potentially useful not only for verifying/improving existing target functions, but it would also allow us to establish equivalent targets for other ear simulators, such as the newer B&K 5128 couplers.

The idea is as follows. Simply provide a short list of your absolute, money-no-object, all-time favorite IEMs (I'd recommend 2<=x<=5). No need for the usual debate about who's right and who's wrong on the choice of 'best-sounding' IEM; we should expect variance. We just want to see those headphones listed. If you can find those headphones on this database: https://www.hypethesonics.com/iemdbc/ then you can take the next step which is to load them up (only those select-few favorite headphones) and then hit the average button in the toolbar (it appears only when x>=2):

average.png

If you don't find your absolute-favorite headphone(s) listed, just make a note of that and we'll see if we can get it added.

In anticipation of the push-back, hate mail, etc., I'll acknowledge this approach won't be perfect. Two headphones you really like might average together to create a hybrid monster you don't. But that's ok. We're only talking about averages for now. The more problematic issue is that limitations of existing headphones might give the impression that we all enjoy less sub-bass, more mid-bass, resonance peaks somewhere between 7 kHz - 11 kHz and a rapid roll-off beyond that. But many newer IEMs are making strides in terms of better extension at both ends of the spectrum and avoiding pronounced resonance peaks, so there's some hope we won't be that far off. The obvious next step for the individual user is that you can then take your own average and use that (instead of the Harman target) as an EQ target, or to search for other IEMs you might enjoy. The algorithms for this still won't be perfect, because even with the perfect target curve there's a question of what weight we apply to each part of the spectrum. But it's a start.

I'll get the ball rolling :) Let's hypothetically say you have a listener that enjoys the Shure KSE1500, Beyerdynamic Xelento, special black edition of the Vision Ears Erlkönig and FiR Audio's M5. Then you'd end up with an average 'target' curve that looks like so:

graph.png


Given the provisos above, it's still actually not that far off the Harman target. But again, this an insignificant sample size of one. So feel free to help us expand on that... :)
 
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Mar 27, 2021 at 7:47 PM Post #2 of 10
Interesting project. Please add SeeAudio Yume.
 
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Mar 28, 2021 at 3:46 AM Post #3 of 10
I never understood the Harman target and why some people adhere to that graph. It's like asking 249 strangers what kind of food they like. It means absolutely NOTHING to me as it has 0 correlation with my own personal tastes, on top of which I simply just don't care about a group of random stranger's tastes.

Which leads me to my next point. It's because of graphs like these, you get people saying this IEM or this headphone is charging too high of a price for a V shape tuning. Blows my mind everytime I see something like this because who said V shape is bad? why do IEMs that are close to a neutral tuning justify a higher price tag? like literally WHO decided this? for only pure listening purposes it shouldn't be about what kind of graph this iem or headphone makes, and just how good you enjoy them, simple as that.
 
Mar 28, 2021 at 5:54 AM Post #4 of 10
IMO, the bigest mess about the Harman target has been how people talk of it without understanding it.
Never was it said that everybody had the same hearing, HRTF, listening level, preferred genres, or the same measurement tools. I remember S Olive mentioning that one headphone they made with the target would give the desired response for a little bit over 60% of listeners.
But even if that was 12%, if any other target tested had even lower stats, then that one would be the one preferred by the most people among the list tested. Trying that tuning(or thinking we did as most people didn't go beyond that) and deciding it's no good for audiophiles or even a larger population because we, a sample of one, didn't prefer it, that's some serious ego trip.

I also seem to have a slightly different preferred FR, but so long as the Harman work remains by far the most rigorous ever done(or made public), I will assume that the truth leans toward them. Again, I am talking about what they published, not what the arevage audiophile thinks they claimed.


Apparently one big cause of variance is seal quality impacting the amount of bass we get(when measurements are usually done after we’ve achieved the best seal we can manage to get). I am not sure how to control or test for that in an experiment where each listener is his own tester. I would expect it to also impact this little experience. I love the idea because it's not asking to pick based on FR found wherever. But ultimately there are indeed some remaining issues/limits to what we'll be able to learn. The fact that most people actually got to try very few IEMs will also create trends more related to fame or ease to procure. I hope that won't ruin a rather interesting project.
 
Mar 28, 2021 at 6:11 AM Post #5 of 10
I never understood the Harman target and why some people adhere to that graph. It's like asking 249 strangers what kind of food they like. It means absolutely NOTHING to me as it has 0 correlation with my own personal tastes, on top of which I simply just don't care about a group of random stranger's tastes.

Which leads me to my next point. It's because of graphs like these, you get people saying this IEM or this headphone is charging too high of a price for a V shape tuning. Blows my mind everytime I see something like this because who said V shape is bad? why do IEMs that are close to a neutral tuning justify a higher price tag? like literally WHO decided this? for only pure listening purposes it shouldn't be about what kind of graph this iem or headphone makes, and just how good you enjoy them, simple as that.
I believe we can acknowledgement personal preferences and common trends at the same time. Indeed it's like food, we can all have our taste and habits, but at a statistical level, some food will come out as loved by most people. While some are really an aquired taste for a tiny group of consumers(because of culture or whatever). When something is shown to please a big amount of people, it becomes more likely for us to also like that. If we don't we don't. But the odds are there and can help our purchasing decisions one way or another. Maybe what comes out of it, is that you should never get what most people like, because that has consistently disappointed you. That too is valuable information for the next purchases IMO.
 
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Mar 28, 2021 at 11:07 AM Post #7 of 10
Good discussions everybody. What would be even better would be if you could list your top/all-time favorite 3 or 4 IEMs at the foot of your comments. Statistics work even if you don't believe in them :wink:

@sateric - Harman doesn't mean neutral. @castleofargh's posts explain things nicely.

Interesting project. Please add SeeAudio Yume.
Good suggestion. We'll add it.
 
Mar 28, 2021 at 12:07 PM Post #8 of 10
Good discussions everybody. What would be even better would be if you could list your top/all-time favorite 3 or 4 IEMs at the foot of your comments. Statistics work even if you don't believe in them :wink:

@sateric - Harman doesn't mean neutral. @castleofargh's posts explain things nicely.


Good suggestion. We'll add it.
Sorry, maybe I didn’t word it as coherently as I could to get out what I meant. I just disagree with people who describe neutral as being good. Not saying it’s bad either but when someone says this IEM is V shaped so it doesn’t deserve its high price tag rubs me the wrong way a bit.
For example when I had the Isine 20 with cipher cables I thought it sounded terrible until I EQed it to a v shape. Maybe it’s just my preference though.
 
Mar 28, 2021 at 12:46 PM Post #9 of 10
Sorry, maybe I didn’t word it as coherently as I could to get out what I meant. I just disagree with people who describe neutral as being good. Not saying it’s bad either but when someone says this IEM is V shaped so it doesn’t deserve its high price tag rubs me the wrong way a bit.
For example when I had the Isine 20 with cipher cables I thought it sounded terrible until I EQed it to a v shape. Maybe it’s just my preference though.
Completely agree. Neutral is in the eye of the beholder's OASPL, because of this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

A perception of neutral (at any volume) must involve something that, when measured by a microphone, actually looks somewhat v-shaped (it particularly needs the bass lift).

Looking forward to learning what your favorite v-shaped IEMs are...:)
 
May 20, 2021 at 5:33 PM Post #10 of 10
Closest thing I've ever heard to "neutral" in a headphone is the 6XX. Favorite stock tune was the Arya. Best sound overall is an L700 with EQ and Blue tac mod. Best sound for shooters is HD800s (love how it understates the bass allowing more important sounds to stand out). Favorite headphones for most music is Argon Mk3 Protein Pads.
 
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