[meat01]

It seems the majority of the people are happy with Grados the way they are. If they were changed in any way, the minority might like them, but the majority would want the old ones back or say that the new ones don't sound as good as the old ones. I believe this really is a case of if it ain't broke, don't fix it. The Grados are unique. I think too many people get too wrapped up in athestics, rather than sound. Not just in headphones, but cables, amps, CD players.

 

[Beagle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesse_w This issue was brought up for the first interview but was ignored because of some strange "Grado can do no wrong" attitude, as if criticism is inherently evil. $200 headphones using hot-glue are unacceptable, I don't care how small your company is. The effort that goes into build quality is atrocious, but there isn't much market force to change it. jesse

What would you like them to do? Fuse it together? Or maybe some nice screws to resonate and screw up the sound? And what if repair is needed, like replacing a driver or cable? You want John to give you a new pair instead?
Quote:

Originally Posted by DJGeorgeT Grado could take a lot of views expressed as customer feedback...if he is smart...and do something to improve his products. I think he has 'forgotten' that the customer is always the customer. Of course grado fanboys do not see grado doing anything wrong and would like everyone to shut up.

I think it is you that has 'forgotten' that Grado (and most Grado owners) are happy with their Grado products. So why change them? To suit a few chronic complainers? I don't think that would be smart.

 

[warpdriver]

The fact that this issue does come up time and time again suggests there are issues with Grados in the mind of many consumers, but does it make business sense for the company to address them?...apparently not. Grado is a success story DESPITE the issues, which makes it even more of an achievement.

 

[Jahn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by warpdriver The fact that this issue does come up time and time again suggests there are issues with Grados in the mind of many consumers, but does it make business sense for the company to address them?...apparently not. Grado is a success story DESPITE the issues, which makes it even more of an achievement.

Here's an obvious and not so obvious observation-

Obvious - this thread's first post collects all the things folks don't like about Grados in one place - and I mean everything. No harm in that, most of these things can all be collected from search engines or just asking Grado owners, and putting it all in one place.

Not so obvious - the original poster seems to have an issue with ALL the things folks don't like about Grados lol. I mean, I love Grados, and I'm a Grado owner, but there are some things I could live with and others I wish were improved. Live with = swivel cups, because i see its purpose - it helps angle the cups to conform to the head. Wish were improved - the tension rods adjusting the height of the cups gets loose after awhile, requiring some clear nail polish or tape to keep from sliding, or something like that. I like the thumbscrew idea on the HP2, but it's just too cost prohibitive for John to continue, and I'm cool with that. But the first post guy seems to have a mad-on for EVERYTHING ANYONE has EVER complained about here on head-fi. Does he really? or is it...

REALLY not so obvious - look at the timing of this thread and others like it. It's around the sudden spotlight on Grados because of the popularity of the HF-1 and the overwhelming traffic because of it. I can trace its direct geneology back to the first anti-HF-1 thread, spawning searches for old "problems with Grado" threads and graveyard bumping them all (that's how the "pizza box" got brought up again) and a repetition of the same people rehashing old problem threads and starting new ones conveniently right now, like a pack of jackals smelling a slow moving buffalo. Right now Grado is an easy target because it's on everyone's mind right now - a victim of success i guess.

Ask yourself - where are the all the Anti-Senn posts talking about the "veil," the cracking headbands, the flaking paint, the sweaty ears, the crappy stock cable, the need to have an amp to get any decent sound, the lack of metal, and so on? If you do a search function you can find a great number of threads about them. But they aren't bumped up or rehashed right now, because such threads wouldn't be as eye-catching as the anti-Grado threads for the attention whores (yeah, I said it!). (edit - i like how AdamCalifornia is trying to post against the tide by cheerleading for Senns in a currently pro-Grado environment, it might be over the top but at least it's positive!)

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge post whore. But when I post I like to bring attention to the subject matter that excites me, like "HF-1 OMGOMGOMG" and not gain notoriety by saying "SENN SUCKS, AGREE OR DIE!" don't fool yourselves folks, that's they way you're coming off sounding, and not just to Grado fans.

Sorry if i made any enemies by saying things like jackals and attention whores and so on, but this thing has been a uniformly crappy phenomenon for a month now (just about as long as the HF-1 has been around, isn't that interesting?) and i've had it up to here. I'm not used to making enemies, especially on just an internet msg brd, but sufficiently pissed enough to share my thoughts - my apologies for more tender ears.

 

[elmoe]

And I think you think too much.

I could diss my SA5ks as much as my Grados, doesn't mean I dislike any of them, people see that they have the chance of having the actual CEO of Grado read posts here and think it may be a good thing to inform him of the things they dislike about Grados.

If Sony was reading this forum you can be hell of sure I'd be the first in line to give my opinions on things to change, thats perfectly normal IMHO.

John Grado can take things the way he wants, if he reads this thread he will notice there are as many people defending than people accusing, all he has to do is not take things personally and read everything with a businessman point of view, people obviously like Grados as much as they dislike them, and those who are currently complaining are actually Grado lovers, they simply want MORE, the sound however totall satisfies them, which means overall, Grado is still very successful in their eyes to bring out the headphones that sound the way people want. That's however, out of the subject at hand.

Mr. Grado reads the forum, probably for fun, and also to get an objective view about his business and headphones from the people using them, and that INCLUDES the people who have bad things to say! These threads do nothing but HELP his business, sure maybe 1 or 2 people will post saying "oh since its like this i wont buy grados" but most people still see this in an objective way and understand very well that if people complain its because they love the experience and only want to make it better.

Stop dissing the dissers and simply state your opinions on why you think Grado has good build quality, on why you dont care about a box, etc. No one cares about hearing someone say "i dont like grado because of the cheap cardbox" just as noone wants to see you peeps say "i dont like complainers cause my grados sound good". That's not teaching anyone anything about the product, it only starts flame wars.

 

[1967cutlass]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jahn Here's an obvious and not so obvious observation- Obvious - this thread's first post collects all the things folks don't like about Grados in one place - and I mean everything. No harm in that, most of these things can all be collected from search engines or just asking Grado owners, and putting it all in one place. Not so obvious - the original poster seems to have an issue with ALL the things folks don't like about Grados lol. I mean, I love Grados, and I'm a Grado owner, but there are some things I could live with and others I wish were improved. Live with = swivel cups, because i see its purpose - it helps angle the cups to conform to the head. Wish were improved - the tension rods adjusting the height of the cups gets loose after awhile, requiring some clear nail polish or tape to keep from sliding, or something like that. I like the thumbscrew idea on the HP2, but it's just too cost prohibitive for John to continue, and I'm cool with that. But the first post guy seems to have a mad-on for EVERYTHING ANYONE has EVER complained about here on head-fi. Does he really? or is it... REALLY not so obvious - look at the timing of this thread and others like it. It's around the sudden spotlight on Grados because of the popularity of the HF-1 and the overwhelming traffic because of it. I can trace its direct geneology back to the first anti-HF-1 thread, spawning searches for old "problems with Grado" threads and graveyard bumping them all (that's how the "pizza box" got brought up again) and a repetition of the same people rehashing old problem threads and starting new ones conveniently right now, like a pack of jackals smelling a slow moving buffalo. Right now Grado is an easy target because it's on everyone's mind right now - a victim of success i guess. Ask yourself - where are the all the Anti-Senn posts talking about the "veil," the cracking headbands, the flaking paint, the sweaty ears, the crappy stock cable, the need to have an amp to get any decent sound, the lack of metal, and so on? If you do a search function you can find a great number of threads about them. But they aren't bumped up or rehashed right now, because such threads wouldn't be as eye-catching as the anti-Grado threads for the attention whores (yeah, I said it!). (edit - i like how AdamCalifornia is trying to post against the tide by cheerleading for Senns in a currently pro-Grado environment, it might be over the top but at least it's positive!) Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge post whore. But when I post I like to bring attention to the subject matter that excites me, like "HF-1 OMGOMGOMG" and not gain notoriety by saying "SENN SUCKS, AGREE OR DIE!" don't fool yourselves folks, that's they way you're coming off sounding, and not just to Grado fans. Sorry if i made any enemies by saying things like jackals and attention whores and so on, but this thing has been a uniformly crappy phenomenon for a month now (just about as long as the HF-1 has been around, isn't that interesting?) and i've had it up to here. I'm not used to making enemies, especially on just an internet msg brd, but sufficiently pissed enough to share my thoughts - my apologies for more tender ears.

To clarify, my acquisition of the dt990's is what prompted this thread, not the HF-1, although that did bring out a lot of other controversy. And on complaining about EVERYTHING, IMO if everything I complained about was fixed I would be a lot happier about Grado's headphones (owning and reccomending them). I will restate my biggest issue, more than any one problem like "headbands": the design isn't evolving, and that's just lazy. where would automotive or medical technology be if we said "if it ain't broke don't fix it"?

 

[1967cutlass]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elrod-tom They rarely do...even if started with the best of intentions, it doesn't take long for folks who have no desire to do anything other than cause trouble pop in for their anonymous cheap shot. It bugs me. In your opinion, of course. Personally, I've never had a problem with mine, where I have with others. What are we to conclude from that? IMHO, if this thread were simply a working group of folks who had a sincere desire to see certain changes to a product that they use and like, that would be one thing. It's not...and that's counter-productive IMHO.

I'm not saying that they're unreliable or problematic, theres nothing majorly WRONG with them, it's just that the design has been around for a while and there is a pretty good concensus that there are some things that would be a nice change (like the headbands, the twist issue, the superglued pole stoppers...)

 

[Flea Bag]

1967cutlass, I'd like to join you in this discussion but I'm short on time so I'll just make a few general points for the good of this thread hopefully.

1. Tradition has its place and its advantages but not with Headphones. The only "tradition" Grado should keep is their sound signature. Unfortunately, headphones also involve comfort and if Grado's "tradition" does not aid in these areas then it's pointless. Why is it pointless? Because you can cut with a pointless tradition and provide more comfortable headbands built by super-efficient and very consistant labour force in China instead of more costly American labour. Bottom line: If you follow Grado's (inefficient and IMHO pointless) tradition, you'll get less for what you pay for. Grado doesn't suffer. We suffer -with all those hours of fun but uncomfortable listening.

Grado's tradition serves no purpose in today's audio if it's not keeping thier customers happy. And from what I see, this is the reason why more and more negative threads about Grado are popping up. I believe I have made a constructive criticism and listed a solution here.

2. I believe this thread was started with the intention of having Grado's problems and flaws all listed out.

Many have said before:"If you don't like Grado's products, then don't buy them!"
Well I'd like to say:"If you're happy with Grado's products, then ignore this discussion and stay silently confident."

What Grado defenders don't seem to know is that we Grado-Constructive-Criticisers(GCCs

) here are already fully aware of the defensive arguements. It's not difficult to defend Grado and I can be just as good a defender as a criticiser. What we GCCs want is for Grado to improve their products and this will benefit everyone including you Grado defenders.

3. The moderators would love to shut this thread down (Grado has a connection with Head-Fi so don't be surprised if the moderators like to defend Grado a lot and be politically correct).

So please... If you're happy and like every aspect of Grado's products, please leave this thread alone. I'm going to get bashed or perhaps even banned for saying what I just did in this post but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

 

[jbloudg20]

A part of the problem here is that many of your negative comments are subjective. For example, the Grado comfort. To me, I find my 325i's more comfortable than my well-broken in HD600's. I also think that the build quality between the two are about equal.

 

[Trogdor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flea Bag What we GCCs want is for Grado to improve their products and this will benefit everyone including you Grado defenders.

Can you please point me to a list, or description, an explanation, or perhaps even another thread that delineates the improvements you would ike to see? (other than the "ship it in a special edition uranium radio-active mahogny box" argument)

As a "Grado fanboy" (whatever that is), my biggest complaint is lack of new products. I was very pleased to here that John is working on street styles with a release timeframe of Christmas of this year. I think that may have a lot of potential.

Some of the other critiscms I've seen are somewhat interesting if interpreted beyond the "GRADO SUCKS" attitude pervasive in a lot of them. John seems to have very long product lifecycles which is good and bad. On one hand it allows him to incrementally improve to give the customer the most value for his money. On the other, it can seem like the Grado line is stagnating and less innovative than the latest and greatest from other manufactures.

MY BIGGEST request from Grado is to produce a high-end boutique style Headphone/Amp combination similar to the Sennheiser Orpheus but in a more reasonable price range (think half the price). It doesn't have to be electrostatic. I'm not sure about the market dynamics for such a beast, but I think a Grado Reference System (beyond the RS-1/RA-1) would be fantastic!

Trogdor

 

[Flea Bag]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbloudg20 A part of the problem here is that many of your negative comments are subjective. For example, the Grado comfort. To me, I find my 325i's more comfortable than my well-broken in HD600's. I also think that the build quality between the two are about equal.

You have a point... However I think you're an exception... Of course, mine's an opinion just like yours but we could try to research on it. Hopefully someone can recall seeing a poll regarding Grado headphone comfort and provide a link to it.

Anyone want to start a new poll then? It has to find the percentage of Grado and Sennheiser/AKG/Audio-Technica etc... customers who are unhappy with comfort and compare them.

 

[Flea Bag]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trogdor Can you please point me to a list, or description, an explanation, or perhaps even another thread that delineates the improvements you would ike to see? (other than the "ship it in a special edition uranium radio-active mahogny box" argument)

Here you go... There's this thread and this one. It's a very long read but you'll find that both threads are full of posts about the mahogny box while I was trying to put more emphasis on the issue of Grado's headbands and other areas of suggested improvements on Grado's products.

Try not to bring those points from those threads into this thread though or this will turn into another closed thread...

 

[mikeg]

Here's my two cents' worth - I've owned Grado's rs-1, 325, and now their 225. I've also owned several other non-Grado headphones, and have heard many others. IMO, Grado headphones are as sturdy and reliable as the best of these other headphones, and they also provide a really high quality sound. But, what I would like to see is an electrostatic or electrostat/dynamic hybrid headphone made by Grado. I think that it's time for Grado to move beyond their old standard line of dynamic headphones.

 

[Colhd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1967cutlass I'm beginning to think this isn't going anywhere. Some people get it, some don't. The fact is that no matter how you try to justify it, Grado headphones just aren't designed as well as they could (and probably should) be.

You may be right in saying that "some people get it, some don't" but the same could apply to you in that you and others here are not "getting" the fact that Grado is a successful business and AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME they do not need to change their products. In fact I would be very surprised if Grado did not have some improvements ready to be implemented when sales begin to fall. Can you imagine the posts here from people who see the "new, improved RS-1 and 225" - it would probably make the frenzy over the HF-1 a mere drop in the ocean.

By all means bemoan the fact that you would wish things were different about Grado headphones. Better yet write to Grado and tell them that you did not buy the product because of something you found unacceptable. But I feel it is out of order for this thread to portray Grado as some sort of evil company - I seriously doubt they are any worse than any other. It is a business and it's there to make money for John Grado, his family and his workforce.

Col

 

[jesse_w]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint.panda Who just had an interview with a moderator (Zanth) from Head-Fi?

This is something I take serious issue with. The first interview was very biased since Zanth picked and chose what he wanted to ask John so he could be all positive and enthusiastic. No criticism ever entered the discussion, so this is an irrelevant point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle What would you like them to do? Fuse it together? Or maybe some nice screws to resonate and screw up the sound? And what if repair is needed, like replacing a driver or cable? You want John to give you a new pair instead?

It seems to me that screws would be alot easier in the case of a repair than hot glue. Also, how do you know hot glue is any better for "resonances?" Other manufacturers use screws and/or interlocking parts to great success.

Some concrete issues I have with grado build quality: Hot glue. I used this to make crafts in primary school. It gets all over the place, and if you open up a Grado you see not neatly, carefully applied hot glue, but a blobby mess all over the place. Unacceptable. Suggestion: Make interlocking parts. Be more careful with the glue. Use an epoxy instead. Look into different methods of attachment, screws arent the only option, although perhaps it would be one worth exporing. Plastic pins could be used, metal pins could be used. There are lots of ways to attach things--you'll notice that all other things that are "engineered" do not alternate between the methods of "screws" and "hot glue."

Soldering: also abysmal. Large blobs, poorly made joints. Solution: this one is very simple. Be more careful, or maybe take some lessons from people experienced with electronics. Almost every DIYer here does a better job soldering than Grado does.

The general problem I have is general lack of care put into construction. Parts are often unevenly made, balance issues and channel dropouts (cold solder joints anyone?) are common occurences. Solution: take more care in building. Train employees better. This one is really simple, but at the same time the most difficult.

If these issues were fixed I would buy a Grado on the spot. I like the Grado sound, but I don't own one because I can get comparable quality from more solidly "engineered" products.

jesse