[Jmmmmm]

I also don't think this is such a big deal. As a medical student, I had a number of labs in college, and I knew of a few people who had old lab reports.

I don't see anything wrong with possessing the old reports. I mean, these aren't sequestered answer keys here...most likely they are his friend's who took the class before. There are hundreds of old lab reports out there; I would be incredibly surprised if he would get in much trouble just for having them.

It's all about how he uses them. If he just copies answers, then obviously that's plagiarism and he should get busted. However, if he uses them as a resource just like any textbook, then I don't see the big deal. Our professors give us old exams (w/ answer keys) here, and they are an important resource to study from and learn from.

Plus, if he just copies the reports, he is the person who will suffer the most. Do you think you do the lab in order to get that stupid inconsequential data? No, it's about learning the procedure, the concepts, and to reinforce the lecture material. I don't know how your class is set up, but the midterm and final were usually worth over 50% of the final lab grade for us, and if he copies the data & answers without knowing how to get them, then he'll do poorly on the exams, more than making up for any advantage he might have had in lab reports (assuming that they are even good, which they might not be).

Not to mention that when you look up the answers (in the textbook), you end up learning about more than just that one fact, you get a framework and a foundation. As cliche as it sounds, those who are doing it for the pursuit of learning and improvement will end up much better off than those looking for a shortcut. You should be your first priority, and you getting the most out of the class should be the main concern. After that, grades will fall into place, and then who cares about anyone else?

I also think this guy was probably trying to be cool and impress you by showing you the old reports... you have no idea how he is going to use them, so I wouldn't jump the gun here. If you want to talk to your TA about your concerns, go for it, I see nothing wrong with that.

If you are put into a situation with him (or maybe even if you are not), just be straight with him. Tell him you want to complete the lab yourself and that you are interested in figuring out the answers and learning the material, and if he wants to check answers against the old stuff, so be it. Or say you don't think it's cool to use that stuff at all, so don't. If you are straight with him, calm, and confident, he will respect your opinion.

 

[iGig]

I would tell the TA in person and hope they change the labs for this semester. If they don't do anything about it, you know you did what you could.

 

[arnesto]

This type of cheating in everywhere.
Fraternities generally keep old midterms and finals for new members.

Some people cheat to get an edge for grad school or to make them sound smarter in job interviews. And these guys will get paid more than you and live better lives. The cheaters are the winners in life and these people will be your bosses and rule you.

You have to accept this as a fact, only thing you can do is change the small stuff around you. I would suggest to not associate to this student and let the T.A. know and ask to have the test and labs changed.

 

[Dane]

Report him! It will give you a doubleplusgood bellyfeel.

 

[aluren]

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnesto This type of cheating in everywhere. Fraternities generally keep old midterms and finals for new members. Some people cheat to get an edge for grad school or to make them sound smarter in job interviews. And these guys will get paid more than you and live better lives. The cheaters are the winners in life and these people will be your bosses and rule you. You have to accept this as a fact, only thing you can do is change the small stuff around you. I would suggest to not associate to this student and let the T.A. know and ask to have the test and labs changed.

exactly... i know so many people that copied, cheated, stole exams, bought reports, etc. that your situation is nothing to worry about... i mean if that guy killed somebody, then yeah, be a little worried... its kinda funny because most of the time people are trying to ask others if there's any way to get by the class by cheating... here is a complete reversal and you're being asked if you want to cheat...

 

[SunByrne]

This has been a most instructive thread--it explains a great deal about our current political situation. Apparently the dominant moral standard is "as long as it doesn't directly affect me, it's OK." I think that's pretty scary and am gladdened that you seem to to think so, too, but it's not yet the primary consideration.

I think there are missing pieces of the story and at least one of them is awfully important, and I'm surprised nobody has asked this:

Is there a stated policy on the use of old labs?

I can't see how you can possibly proceed without this bit of information. If there's a policy that says such use is forbidden, then you indeed need to consider the ethical question. However, in many classes, instructors go to lengths to change things every time and old labs are a reasonable source of information. If the instructor (professor or TA) has made no statement either in class or on the syllabus about this, that's a bad sign and probably means they're inexperienced. Before you do ANYTHING else, you should ask what the policy is about this. Most of the posts here seem to assume the answer to this question, and that's a dangerous assumption.

The second piece is, as someone mentioned, the issue of an honor code. IF the policy is that use of old labs is forbidden, and IF you have an honor code, then you are indeed obligated to turn this guy in, even if only to protect yourself. I get the sense from your posts, though, that you don't have an honor code.

If the policy is, however, that use of old labs is OK, then this is indeed a mountain being made of a molehill.

So find that out first--and either way, chastise the TA or professor for not making a clear statement about it on the first day of class or on the syllabus!

 

[GlendaleViper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ls20 If I hadn't seen your profile I would not have guessed that you were over 13. There's a difference between ethics, and common social sense. Who cares... let the other guy do whatever he wants

This thread has actually brought up a bit of a staggering cross-examination of personal ethics altogether. The post above was the cream of the crop, to me. It got me upset enough to post here.

It seems to me that a good chunk of people think morality is for turncoat losers, having an ethical dillemma is for anal-retentive psychopaths, and apathy and nihilism is a well balanced condition.

For god's sake, the OP wanted advice, not a scolding.

My advice is to NOT be a rat or a coward. Confront the person who showed you this and let him know you disapprove. Chances are, he'll think you're a goodie-two-shoes and leave you alone after that, mission accomplished. This keeps you from being a snitch, avoids any hassle to your own schedule and should effectively take some burden off your mind. Just remember that someone who is too stupid to try and gain from 4 years of PAID education is likely stupid enough to get caught time and time again.

 

[micaela]

Quote:

Apparently the dominant moral standard is "as long as it doesn't directly affect me, it's OK." I think that's pretty scary

QFT

 

[BlindTiger]

Drop a dime on him.

 

[mr_baseball_08]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlendaleViper It seems to me that a good chunk of people think morality is for turncoat losers, having an ethical dillemma is for anal-retentive psychopaths, and apathy and nihilism is a well balanced condition.

I'm still confused about how this is a moral dilemma?? The OP doesn't have a clue how this guy intends to use these old lab reports or if the OP does, he didn't make it clear aside from stating his opinion about how he thought the guy in question would use it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnesto This type of cheating in everywhere. Fraternities generally keep old midterms and finals for new members. Some people cheat to get an edge for grad school or to make them sound smarter in job interviews. And these guys will get paid more than you and live better lives. The cheaters are the winners in life and these people will be your bosses and rule you. You have to accept this as a fact, only thing you can do is change the small stuff around you. I would suggest to not associate to this student and let the T.A. know and ask to have the test and labs changed.

Wow, are you serious? Or are you being sarcastic. If you'd lose the defeatist attitude and tell yourself you can achieve more and do better academically and professionally than the cheaters you might live a happy fulfilling life.

IMO, cheaters will eventually float to the top and expose themselves for what they are.

I don't like cheating and I don't like cheaters but I'm not going to rat someone out for what they do. If anything it inspires me to be more successful than them and doing it the hard way is a lot more fulfilling in the long run. IMO, using thier bad qualities as inspiration for myself doesn't really mean I don't have morals. Because I have plenty..

 

[ls20]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlendaleViper It seems to me that a good chunk of people think morality is for turncoat losers, having an ethical dillemma is for anal-retentive psychopaths, and apathy and nihilism is a well balanced condition.

Cheating in school ... nihilism? Now THAT thought is truly scary. Let's throw them all in a lockbox along with jaywalkers, marijuana smokers, high school kids who grind at homecoming, and the rest of the social degenerate lot.....

Morality is good... when complimented by a grounded touch with reality...

 

[Uncle Erik]

Huh. It seems like everyone here is torn between turning the guy in and ignoring him. I've got a couple of different takes on the situation.

For one, you should tell the professor that old class materials, tests, etc. are circulating. See what he thinks. If it causes him to change the tests and assignments, then having the old notes won't mean much. They will just be another study aid. That would not be "ratting" on anyone and the professor would be able to counteract it.

Second, unless someone is turning in another's work as his own, it isn't plagiarism. If he studies the old test and takes the new one, it really isn't cheating. Also, how would this be any different than taking an open book exam? Those are perfectly ethical. Some even allow open note tests. Those are ethical, too.

In law school, there were outlines created by the students for each of the classes. Not only did the professors know of these outlines, the university knowingly put them on the server for all to use. We did. You couldn't take one into the exams. But the feeling was, "hey, use anything that helps you learn the material." Further, you could pop into a professor's office and ask for some old exams. They'd give them to you and you could copy them for your friends, as well. Even with the Bar exam, you got copies of old exams to practice with. As long as you don't cross the line of plagiarism or crib notes (or whatever) you should learn by whatever means necessary.

I'm not so sure that anything unethical has happened yet. The only thing you really should do is make the professor aware that the materials are out there. You never know, he might make all of his old material available to everyone. That's not necessarily a bad thing. If you use it to actually learn the material, then that's the point of the course, isn't it? It's not like you're prohibited from learning anything from materials other than the book and lectures. Don't be afraid of that, either. I struggled with a business calculus class, so I went and bought a book that explained it better. It was so good, that I got close to a perfect score on the final. It wasn't cheating, I actually learned how to work the problems. The professor knew, as well. I gave him the book after the class ended and he now uses its problems and examples to teach.

Anyhow, it is good to think about and discuss ethical issues. It should be done more often.

 

[Silentpug387]

Turning him in doens't make you a vigilante defender of justice or a terrible snitch. Just like not turning him doesn't make you apathetic. People live by different ethical codes. If I was in a class with a friend and I knew he was cheating, turning him in, to me, would be immoral. He trusts me as his friend and to breech that trust would be wrong.

If I was at like West Point or something I'd probably turn him in or something, just because i wouldn't want someone who people's lives potentially depended on to make it without doing all the work. But if someone is cheating at lab where the best possible outcome for them is that they get an A for one semester of lab (which probably wouldn't happen, because if he didn't work out the labs he'd probably bomb the final) I would just mind my business. But, thats just me. You should do whatever you feel is right and follow whatever course of action coincides with your own ethics. But, just because others don't do the same doesn't mean that they are less moral than you. They just have a different understanding of what is moral.

While I believe that stuff i just typed, if someone was with their friend (or someone they just met) who had marijuana or something, and they got stopped by a cop or something for whatever reason, and the person told on them... I can't really see anyway where telling on them wouldn't be over rightous and I would see it as immoral. I don't know if this scenario has any parallels with the guy having the labs and telling you about it. The main difference would be that the guy having marijuana doesn't negatively affect you but him cheating and lowering the curve would. But if that was an issue you wouldn't be turning the cheater in because you felt morally obligated but rather to protect your own grade interest.


Quote:

Originally Posted by BlindTiger Drop a dime on him.

lol

 

[sisenor]

I think what I've decided to do(borrowing from some greatly thoughtful advice I just received

) is to talk to the person in the lab, tell him I'm uncomfortable with anything other than my own work and see if I can get him to cool it himself and maybe anonymously tip the TA that there's stuff floating around that perhaps isn't real legit.

I truly and deeply thank you all for your input into this fiasco...it's been of great help and alternately emotionally reassuring/stimulating. Maybe you have been babysitting me a little but this was a good discussion anyway. I came home from work and school to find this post still active, and it meant a lot to me. I hope I can return the favor sometime. p e a c e

 

[renton]

hahah wth dude. you are gonna try to convince this guy not to cheat. than anonymously tip the TA. the kid is so going to know its you, when the professor changes something. or he will always look at you different from then on. plus if he suspects something about you, he may want to put you in "check" if you know what i mean. lol . seriously though who just get over it, in like 1 or 2 years you will be like man why did i stress over that so much, i guarantee it.

1.telling him what you think will just make the situation worse/odd
2.ratting him out is a possiblity of getting beat down.

hes probably not as bad as you think. he just made a wrong decision to cheat. weve all made bad decisions. let him figure out hes wrong himself. and if he gets away with it, well there is always karma...