Solid or Stranded Hookup Wire?

[Emon]

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Originally Posted by rickcr42 Yes it will or I wouldn't use it considering how much of a pain in the a*s it is to solder and use.

I would argue with this statement, but likely I'll get banned for being right and distilling doubt into the minds of avid mystics.

 

[rickcr42]

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I would argue with this statement, but likely I'll get banned for being right and distilling doubt into the minds of avid mystics.

maybe for being a wise ass yes as here but for adding actual content then backing it up with experience ? Of course not.

BTW-consider yourself warned for that crack bucko since you obviously have a personal issue here that has zero to do with the topic

 

[Emon]

My issue is the slew of misinformation on this forum that new users so easily believe because of the illusion of "expertise" that many older members have.

The differences in capacitance, resistance and inductance in a few inches of wire are negligible. Take a high end DMM and measure them yourself. Those are the three factors that will affect an audio signal. None of the readings would even exceed measureable percent error, let alone human hearing. Of course, by bringing this up, I have derailed the thread into a cable debate, which means it'll be encouraged to ignore my posts.

 

[rickcr42]

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While we're on the topic... About how small solid core can you go on say 1 ft interconnects without risking breakage in the long term?

goes more to the foundation and wire/connector area flexthan it does actual wire diameter.

alone small guage wire has a very flimsy "hand" to it and being both small and solid will break off at the ends if not secured in a way that avoids flex right at the terminal.
for internal wiring simplicity but for external more thought is required on "what bad can happen" then avoiding the problem before it occurs

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People use CAT-5e wires so 24 AWG must be okay (so long as it is supported in a twisted pair config?). 28 AWG seems possible if you protected it somehow... (Weren't the magnet wire interconnects that used packing tape around that size?)

the magnet wire/packing tape project is actually what started me investigating the smaller guages and most reports across the board are of better sonics but being DIY we can make corrections while manufacturers must build a "sturdy" product so maybe they shy away not on the sonic merits but for both the durability factor and the difficulty they would have charging $500 fr such a simple design unless they "pretty it up" as they do with most designs using $50 in parts for $1K cables.

BTW-the CAT-5 wires also work very well for internal wiring being a fairly pure solid copper conductor.At least that is my experience and we all know how easy i am to please

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

My issue is the slew of misinformation on this forum that new users so easily believe because of the illusion of "expertise" that many older members have.

so instead of wise cracks why not just add your experiences ? What you have found to be superior ?

Quote:

The differences in capacitance, resistance and inductance in a few inches of wire are negligible. Take a high end DMM and measure them yourself. Those are the three factors that will affect an audio signal. None of the readings would even exceed measureable percent error, let alone human hearing. Of course, by bringing this up, I have derailed the thread into a cable debate, which means it'll be encouraged to ignore my posts.

It is established fact that two items can measure pretty much identical and still have totally different sound.
By the example stated we should be able to throw any old wire on the interconnect as long as it met the minimum requirements according to ohms law and other established measurement methods


Quote:

Of course, by bringing this up, I have derailed the thread into a cable debate, which means it'll be encouraged to ignore my posts.

Strike two.

Think about the future !You seem to have far more to say on the personal front than anything so far said on the topic that adds anything.

Again consider yourself warned to stay on topic

 

[aerius]

I use solid wire whenever possible. I don't know why, but for some reason stranded wire tends to cause listening fatigue and I can't listen for more than a couple hours at a time. Since I'm cheap, I just buy rolls of magnet wire and Cat 6 network cable to wire up all my projects. I go anywhere from 20-26ga depending on whether it's a power or signal wire and how easily I can make it fit into whatever I happen to be building. I'm quite happy with the results so far.

 

[Pars]

Interesting discussion... it actually has me considering rewiring my Dynalo with solid core in the signal paths (instead of my sheilded teflon jacketed stuff). Also, nice heads-up Rick on the center of RG-6 for buss wire as I will need some for the multiple jacks when I put in a source selector, and I'm certainly not above pulling some coax apart to get it rather than ordering a spool

. I'm kinda back in the cable skeptic mode, more because of the insane prices for commercial stuff, and the ensuing preponderance of last month's "revelation" on the used market, but we'll see.

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It is established fact that two items can measure pretty much identical and still have totally different sound

It seems that many "established facts" get tossed around, but where and by whom they were established never seems to come forth (or else I miss that part...). The RAHE objectivists (Pinkerton, et al) seem to think that they can take any cable and with level matching and equalization to within 0.1dB at three frequencies to their reference cable, challenge anyone to correctly identify their own cable from the reference (DBT). Supposedly with some money on it, and supposedly with no takers in 5 years or so (but I haven't been reading the newsgroups for some time now). That would seem to qualify as pretty much the same measurements, and they at least seem to bet that it will sound the same.

Of course, to them all amplifiers, CD players, etc. sound the same, at least ones deemed to be competently designed (I think that's how they put it). I guess I must have been hearing things when I replaced my Hafler 220 with an Odyssey

 

[nikongod]

pars:
as i interpreit ricks implications, the "benefits" of a high dolar cable are not in sound above a 30ga magnet wire intercinect, theya are in durability AND sound. having made 30ga interconects, i can safely say duribility is sadly lacking. very sadly. im glad i didnt pay for much parts....

the beauty of truly nice geear is not in hearing the stuff that IS on the recording, it is in NOT hearing the stuff that is NOT on the recording. the decay of tones is especically important to me.... its no fun for everything to drag on and get slurred.

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

I'm kinda back in the cable skeptic mode, more because of the insane prices for commercial stuff, and the ensuing preponderance of last month's "revelation" on the used market, but we'll see.

I hear you on that one man.Fully 80% of my system still uses either the Radio Shack 24 awg "rainbow wire",CAT-5 or the center conductor from a coax cable which also makes some pretty nice sounding interconnects in a simple "twist" pattern of two.

Funny thing here though.Coax is fairly flexable yet when you strip out the cnter conductor you end up with a very stiff wire.Individual parts flex while the individual parts do not

got me to thinking (and we all know how dangerous that can be) about the relationship to the surface area vs length = flexability ratio.For some reason I am sure easily explained by others (probably a standard formula somewhere)the larger the diameter the more easy it is to flex.
Along those same lines (kinda of topic but stay with me here

) is the known fact that when you replace a car steering wheel with one of those cool looking but far smaller after market chrome spoke steering wheels it is way harder to steer in anything but a straight line than it was previously and all due to the size of the wheel.

Take that to a volume control.Itty bitty controls on little amps have a very "coarse" adjustment range yet take a X2 larger knob and put it on the same pot and you have more actual control to set the volume more precisely.Multiply the size again X2 and even more control etc.Just one of those weird things never talked about yet we all notice at one time or another.

so with wire you have a solid center surrounded by a foamed core then over this another layer in the PVC or other material outer jacket and your now formerly very still and easily kinked solid conductor wire behaves as if it were multistrand !
That is until it gets SO SMALL that it then becomes flaxable but now it is fragile as hell and very easy to get a "kink" in.

Just no winning in audio and once you know everything is a comprimise you just set up the least amount of comprimise you can live with in a certain part of the design since a single solution never works for everything even in a single system.The rest we just deal with and pretend it is not there.

 

[rickcr42]

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having made 30ga interconects, i can safely say duribility is sadly lacking. very sadly. im glad i didnt pay for much parts....

100% agree there.While I have made some interconnects that were "usable" if babied they would never see any popularity as a commercial product no matter how good the sonics were in comparison to equally priced cables and the sheer amount of returns when "fumble thumbs" purchasers,and we are legion,added up no company could sustain the loss and remain in business.at least that has been my experience.Even when I get the wire right the wire to jack connection still seems to be the weak spot and I never have felt totally comfortable with it.

Internally "skinny" wire has a much better shot at surviving since it will be soldered and never moved again unless it is a commercial product and will be subjected to the horror show that is commercial shipping and receiving.Then extra measures to secure the wire so there is zero movement becomes very important.

some light reading :

http://www.meta-gizmo.com/Tri/Dancing/DrG_silverT.html

 

[ATAT]

I'm a skeptic but I'm open to being convinced..
How would one measure these differences in solid/stranded wire in lengths inside casing. I would be open to the idea that a long IC would easily affect sound but a few inch wire in an amp affecting sound to a major degree? I swapped out my stranded and solid hookup wire on the output of my PPA v2 yet I hear absolutely no difference...

Oh and why does no one talk of the PCB traces?

those are far longer than any hookup wires... next we'll be demanding our PCB traces be silver-plated oxygen free copper

 

[ericj]

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Originally Posted by adhoc on the topic of NOS wire, is this true? I once read it in the auction description for a spool of wire: "The wire is solid core copper, and is plated with a silvery metal. I assume this is silver as the wire is teflon jacketed - copper wires that are teflon-jacketed must have a silver plating to prevent reaction between the copper and teflon. "

No.

But if you want plated copper wire, usually that's tin plate.

Unfortunately, if you hot-extrude PTFE over tin, some of the tin and some of the fluorine bonds together and makes tin fluoride, which is a bad nasty volatile.

Silver doesn't have that problem. You get some silver fluoride, but that's nothing to worry about.

Neither does nickel. Unfortunately it's an unholy female dog to solder nickel - that stuff is used in crimped connections and wire wrap. But the wire wrap version doesn't have teflon insulation.

Lately there are less hot PTFE extrusion methods that allow manufacturers to make tin plated teflon insulated wire. You probably won't find any as military surplus.

And finally, if you find the military acceptance number on the spool or the wire itself, it can hardly be said to be mystery wire. You can look that stuff up, with some creative googling.

 

[rickcr42]

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I would be open to the idea that a long IC would easily affect sound but a few inch wire in an amp affecting sound to a major degree?

Weak link theory.

Whatever your weak link is will color everything that passes through it and that is why most attack system weaknesses at the source and build out not the other way around.

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I'm a skeptic but I'm open to being convinced.. How would one measure these differences in solid/stranded wire in lengths inside casing

That is not convincing but measuring.In an arena where much of it is based on subjective sound (or why buy high end capacitors and rewsistors ?) you can only tell what will sound crappy by measuring but rarely what sounds good.That takes listening and that listening with known controls such as your own system with music you know and just ONE change.The one you are trying to evaluate.

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Oh and why does no one talk of the PCB traces?

I do not because as stated many times I do not use them.All PTP wiring except for my portables which use opamps out of need only.

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those are far longer than any hookup wires... next we'll be demanding our PCB traces be silver-plated oxygen free copper

there is a serious amount of content available on the audible consequences of pcb layout and even material of the board.not from audio sites but directly from the chip maker libraries and other reputable sources.Do a google if you have a need to know

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I swapped out my stranded and solid hookup wire on the output of my PPA v2 yet I hear absolutely no difference...

What stranded for what solid ? At one point ? the entire amp ? What headphones used ? Music type ? context is everything.

 

[ATAT]

To each his/her own =) as you said, my ears are my judge and since I can't hear the difference, I'll stick with the easier to handle stranded wire for my hookups..

 

[rickcr42]

reality check :

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...orsten1/16.jpg

that is what #30 magnet wire actually looks like.Damn scary isn't it

Edit


broken link,

try this then scroll down to pic #15

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...1/builders.htm