So Just Why Do Brits Play All the Bad Guys in Hollywood Films?
Aug 9, 2003 at 6:57 AM Post #16 of 39
Quote:

Originally posted by spaceman
Doesn't matter anyway. Hollywood sucks, as do most of the films. I prefer films made in GB, I like the actors, and I think British music is a few notches above the vast majority of American produced music. ****....maybe I should move to GB
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Hmm... Maine lobster or bad British cooking. That's a no brainer.

(Actually I think bad and British cooking are synonymous.)
 
Aug 9, 2003 at 6:59 AM Post #17 of 39
Quote:

Originally posted by Wilson M.
Hmm... Maine lobster or bad British cooking. That's a no brainer.

(Actually I think bad and British cooking are synonymous.)


Don't forget the teeth!

*ducks*
 
Aug 9, 2003 at 8:14 AM Post #18 of 39
Quote:

Originally posted by KR...
A real question that people should ask is how come in every Disney animated movie, the bad guys almost always have darker skin than the good guys and feminine voices?


Ya know... I've noticed the same thing... kinda creepy... of course I find most all Disney movies, theme parks, toys etc. creepy in some sort of a baseless, formless way.
 
Aug 9, 2003 at 9:25 AM Post #19 of 39
Whats wrong with Brit cooking
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...Somehow I don't think you'll ever see Hugh Grant as a bad guy
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Aug 9, 2003 at 9:39 AM Post #20 of 39
Quote:

Originally posted by Duncan
Whats wrong with Brit cooking
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is there even such a thing as British Cooking
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Aug 9, 2003 at 9:41 AM Post #21 of 39
Quote:

Ya know... I've noticed the same thing... kinda creepy... of course I find most all Disney movies, theme parks, toys etc. creepy in some sort of a baseless, formless way.



The French social theorist Jean Baudrillard has a chapter in his book, "America", where he makes an oddly insightful and entertaining neo-Marxist analysis of Disneyland. Once you get past some of his lit-crit jargon and more nutty conclusions, his ideas on "simulcra" (ripped off by the Matrix) and Mickey Mouse do raise some creepy conclusions about life in the 21st century.


As far as villains being more conflicted or more interesting than protagonists, I wouldn't say that this is true in most cases. By definition, the hero, or main character, is the person who undergoes the most change at the end of the narrative. The hero, at least in western traditions, always confronts a choice and must, also by definition, choose the more difficult path.

The antagonist doesn't have the burden of this inner conflict and can often get away with being evil for the sake of being evil because most people seem to accept the convention that it is easier to be bad than it is to be good. Evil characters rarely undergo any change from the beginning of the dramatic arc to the end because this almost always turns them into protagonists. (One neat definition of a "soap opera" is that none of the characters in a soap opera undergo any change from the beginning of the story to the end. It is actually a pretty bizarre narrative form.)

You can always create an evil character to be conflicted and complex, but it isn't necessary (i.e. Jaws). OTOH, it is always necessary to have the hero learn from his experiences and become a "better" or "wiser" person in the end. The problem with this is that the dramatic turning points where the hero confronts and overcomes his obstacles have become so institutionalized that they seem cliched and meaningless now. It takes a skilled writer to make these dramatic turning points seem fresh and interesting. Without a good writer/director/actor, the protagonist risks being trampled on and overshadowed by the villain, who usually has the freedom to camp it up without compromising the story.

Just my 2 1/2 cents worth
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Aug 9, 2003 at 10:23 AM Post #22 of 39
Quote:

Originally posted by Braver
is there even such a thing as British Cooking
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Denmark would like to think so, seeing that 90% of their bacon exports head our way
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Aug 9, 2003 at 12:17 PM Post #24 of 39
Oh great. First British cooking and now French social theory. Next we'll be talking about that wonderful SACD: Favorite Chinese Instrumentals. (I'm Chinese so I can make fun of that SACD.)

By definition, yes. In practice, all too often not.

You are right that the conflicts that face the protagonist have been trivialized and none so more than in Hollywood films. It is sad to witness the non-coverage of the inner journey that is taken and the moral conflicts that arise.

The problem with Hollywood heroes is the fact that they are too often made out to be fundamentally good people and will innately choose the right path in the face of conflict even if that path is more difficult. It is almost a given in Hollywood. This polarization is unrealistic and the lack of coverage heightens the stereotype. "Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die." (Lord Tennyson for those who are curious.)

This flatness of character is frankly very unappealing. It's almost an "I'm too stupid to do anything else." There is a complexity of character that is all too often missing in Hollywood films. There is so very little introspection on the part of most protagonists that they seem so much more one-dimensional.

Some of the best protagonists are those who are initially almost anti-heroes. Reluctant heroes who face their moral struggle between what is right for them and what is right for the greater good. And it isn't just a singular decision. It is an ongoing tug of war between the selfish human and what is morally right.

We cannot read minds. We cannot always infer what is going on in the mind of the protagonist or any character in fact. We cannot always infer what thoughts a character is thinking by their physical actions.

That is where theatrical drama has an edge over a lot of films. There is no real "scene" other than that which is defined by the actors and more importantly by their verbal interaction. There is more reflection and dialogue and less physical action. Granted, it isn't realistic that a protagonist is going to partake in a soliloquy in the middle of a scene but it is a device that at least gives us a much deeper glimpse into the psyche of the character and the inner struggles that just don't come out on their own.

Human beings like to solve problems for themselves. Males in particular. Females tend to talk a lot more not necessarily to find a discrete solution but use the entire process of expressing themselves as part of the solution. Some would call it informal therapy.

Devices in movies would include voice-over narrative, flashbacks, reveries and dream sequences and you are right that it takes a very talented writer to do it justice. Most of the time the dialogue is stilted and without impact.

It's easier for villains because we all know that villains LOVE to talk. They take pride in telling everyone around them their master plans.

A twisted thought came to mind. Terrorism works because I think the "good" guys are looking for an informational hand-out complete with diagrams, 3D models and time schedule. Movies and TV certainly condition us to expect the absurd.

Antagonists are necessarily burdened with inner conflict. It's rare that social deviants are the way they are just because. There are very deep and influential reasons why an antagonist is the way they are. A child abuser is almost always a former victim of child abuse. I cannot believe that there is not some kind of inner conflict when an abuser abuses. It is that self-loathing that manifests itself in the act of abuse.

The thing with antagonists is that they don't know how to deal with the conflict and their antagonism is their "knee-jerk" mechanism for dealing with conflict.

I just find that movie scripts tend to give more texture to antagonists. Why? Because they are "bad boys" and to some extent we as the audience look up to them in a perverted way. They are dastardly in an roguish fashion. They do what we deem is socially unacceptable for us regular people to do but there is a dark fascination with it. It is how a lot of people express some of the darkness inside of them. Voyeurism, living vicariously, etc.

I think that is why British actors seem to make the best villains. There is almost a "nobility" in their evil. Rogues and pirates have been romanticized through the ages and people admire that to some extent. To hear the lilt in Christopher Lee's devilish voice certainly beats the hell out of listening to Billy Bob Thorton's twang.

Villains are almost always portrayed as more intelligent than the heroes because it takes some genius to take over the world (and if someone mentions Pinky and the Brain, I'll slap you silly). The evil machinations and subterfuge. Heroes are almost stupid in comparison.

I'm assuming Jaws as in the shark and not the Bond villain. Last time I watched the movie, I didn't recall a British actor playing the part of a man eating shark.
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Do heroes in film always learn something? Are they aware that they learned something? Does the audience even realise that a moral lesson has been played out before them? That is beyond the basic good versus evil.

Frankly, audiences of Hollywood movies are looking to be entertained. They aren't looking for Aesop's Fables.

Hollywood is too driven by dollars and bottom line and that is a shame.

Unfortunately, they pander to the lowest common denominator and that friends is a very scary thought.

My favourite British villain? Ian McKellan in Richard III (the movie).

On a side note, British comedy is light years ahead of Hollywood comedy. They are actually witty and their humour quite cerebral. That's not to say that they are not bawdy because they are capable of all of that as well. I'll take Rowan Atkinson as Edmund Blackadder any day of the week over any Hollywood comedian (although I dislike Mr. Bean and Johnny English looks ghastly).
 
Aug 9, 2003 at 6:19 PM Post #26 of 39
Quote:

Originally posted by Wilson M.
Hmm... Maine lobster or bad British cooking. That's a no brainer.

(Actually I think bad and British cooking are synonymous.)


You guys won't believe this but I actually do not like lobster! I'd rather eat a nice big Porterhouse. Anyway, there is some fine cooking in the British Isles. Just check out Jamie Oliver, and Tony Bourdaine on Food TV, I think you'll change your mind. Oh, and lets not forget Nigella....she can cook, and a real "looker" too.
 
Aug 9, 2003 at 7:41 PM Post #27 of 39
Oh I believe it. I know lots of people who don't like lobster.

Beef is highly overrated and I've eaten more than my fair share of the best (Lobel's in Manhattan sells some of the best beef in the world.)

If you are following the similar thread about lack of Asians in the media then I would say that those chefs are the token British contingent.
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I'm just trying to give the British a hard time. Wasn't that the point of this thread?
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Every country has their unfair share of bad cooking and the US is definitely not an exception to the rule.
 
Aug 10, 2003 at 5:34 AM Post #28 of 39
Quote:

Originally posted by spaceman
You guys won't believe this but I actually do not like lobster! I'd rather eat a nice big Porterhouse. Anyway, there is some fine cooking in the British Isles. Just check out Jamie Oliver, and Tony Bourdaine on Food TV, I think you'll change your mind. Oh, and lets not forget Nigella....she can cook, and a real "looker" too.



Cooking quality in GB has indeed seen a great renaissance in recent years, so I agree with the basis of your post. Tony Bourdaine, however, is a born and raised New Yorker, so I'm not at all sure how he fits in here.
Nigella could cook for me anytime though.............


JC
 
Aug 10, 2003 at 6:16 AM Post #29 of 39
Quote:

Originally posted by Nightfall
Cooking quality in GB has indeed seen a great renaissance in recent years, so I agree with the basis of your post. Tony Bourdaine, however, is a born and raised New Yorker, so I'm not at all sure how he fits in here.
Nigella could cook for me anytime though.............


JC


Actually, Tony Bourdaine was born and raised in France. On his show, A Cook's Tour, he travels to England and Scotland, and makes very specific points about the quality of the cuisine in Great Britain.
 

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