[citroeniste]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audiofiler Sorry I do not think that I fully read the question the first time... I used a DC-Coupled, Selectable-Gain Headphone Amplifier to match the levels and reduce the noise frequencis. For better and matched efficiency with all cans and impedance characteristic of any headphone output stage. Hope this answers your question(s)

Yes, that explains pretty much all your results for me. An accurate test would require matching levels to +/- 0.1dB across the frequency band using a 'scope. Otherwise, what you're testing is your ability to hear minute differences in level.

 

[alfie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by citroeniste Yes, that explains pretty much all your results for me. An accurate test would require matching levels to +/- 0.1dB across the frequency band using a 'scope. Otherwise, what you're testing is your ability to hear minute differences in level.

Would you mind to explain that? Do you mean parametrically equalizing ?

 

[dave-the-rave]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuerst But surely a $2k dedicated cd player will be better than a laptop with an echo indigo line-out as source? But how much better is my question. I hear all these OMG the clarity! OMG OMG the details!! OMG OMG OMG the soundstage, the placement!!! OMG OMG OMG OMG this is SO MUCH BETTER!!!!111 C'mon now... is the difference between a ok source like a laptop with echo indigo line-out and a Meridian G08 really that big? Between a Arcam CD73 and the Meridian G08 even?

I sold my Cary CD303/200 (MSRP $3,000/Bought new for $1,800) and replaced it with a Reimyo DAP-777 Dac (MSRP $5295/Bought used for $2,400) driven by a Sony DVP-s7700 (Orig. MSRP $1,300/Bought used for $200) as transport connected via Nirvana TDI 1.5M digital cable (MSRP$645/Bought used for $250).

While the Cary is a well-respected and well-reviewed player, and I increased my investment in source from $1800 to $2850 (plus the loss on selling the Cary), the difference is sound is astronomical, night and day, etc., not the 2% that people who preach the law of diminishing returns would suggest.

I have a pair of Sony R10's, and since what you hear is only as good as what you feed them, I decided to maximize my source. Finally, I am extraordinarily pleased with what I am hearing; I can hear "into" the music in a way I never could before.

Source makes a tremendous difference— if you don't get the music up front, it is lost to the chain forever. It's not just about spending money; I also have a Denon DCM-380 changer, bought on Ubid for $89 bucks. It sounds pretty good, especially for the price. But when you compare it to the Reimyo DAC, you realize that in comparison, the Denon sounds like a transistor radio.

It took a few years and a lot of components in and out of the system to get it where it is today. Be patient and try stuff; when you buy used, it's hard to lose money.

 

[dave-the-rave]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meyvn The search for perfection leads into madness.

Search not for perfection, but for excellence, grasshopper.

 

[Patrick82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave-the-rave the difference is sound is astronomical, night and day, etc., not the 2% that people who preach the law of diminishing returns would suggest.

What were the improvements?

 

[rodbac]

Quote:

...as there were some rumours that critical opinions are undesired here.

Dude, as much as I hate to say it, this site has become a punchline to a large number of informed people not only because of the animosity toward opinions that are contrary to the group-think, but also because of the rampant credulousness and complete inability or unwillingness (or both) to debate an issue effectively.

Anyone with even a shred of critical thinking ability can see that this thread is devolving into yet another example of this as they always do.

 

[dave-the-rave]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 What were the improvements?

It's hard to articulate what something sounds like (which is why there is so much bad audio review writing), but I'll try. As I realized that I was listening to music less and less as time went on, I thought about the Cary sound. I realized that yes, it was detailed, but that it was "hard," like the music had a shell around it that did not let you in emotionally. Ultimately, it was not engaging me.

With the Sony/Reimyo combo, it's like having a newspaper photo (the way they used to be) and getting close enough to it that you see the individual dots that it's made of without losing sight of the whole image. The listener is plunged into the center of the music, no longer a bystander. If I had to list objective improvements, they would include greater blackground, greater separation of instruments and a ton more detail. But the biggest difference is emotional: The performance feels extremely intimate. Ultimately, the Reimyo/Sony set-up better communicates the emotion of the music to me. And by emotion, I don't only mean female vocalists or opera. (I listen mostly to rock: Pink Floyd, Yes, Porcupine Tree, Lucinda Williams, Mike Oldfield, Deep Purple, Radiohead....) All the music is more captivating, engaging and thrilling. And that's what I want out of music.

This may sound like a lot of subjective BS to some, but in this case, objectivity is the real BS, because everything we process with our 5 senses starts with objective data, but ends with a subjective interpretation in our own individual brain. The ultimate end benefit of this hobby isn't how the music sounds, but how the music makes you feel. (But I do believe that how the music sounds is a pathway to how you ultimately feel.) Even the guys at Dakiom are right about this— your body reacts at an unconscious, physiological level to what you're hearing. (Neil Young, who is down on digital said, "It can fool the ear, but not the heart." Touché, Neil.)

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. BTW, this all could have something to do with the Sony R10's. In my experience, they have a very unique, kind of 3-dimensional sound, and may do some things differently than other cans.

BTW, the reason all digital sources do not sound the same is because we are always listening to the analog output.

System: Sony DVP-s7700 transport > Nirvana TDI digital cable > Reimyo DAP-777 dac > Kimber KCAG IC's > Berning Microzotl headphone amp w/ NOS Sylvania 12AT7 & 6sN7 tubes > Sony MDR-R10 headphones. And let me assure you it sounds a helluva lot better that plugging the R10's into the headphone jack of the Sony CD/DVD player.

 

[rodbac]

So aren't you a perfect person to take citroeniste up on his offer, dave-the-rave? What do you have to lose if it's a slam-dunk?

 

[edstrelow]

Quote:

Originally Posted by facelvega I'm always surprised that so few people on head-fi seem to think of high-end cables as mere snake oil. There's long been a raging undercurrent in the rest of hifi to disprove and discredit the idea that cable matters (here, say) but for the most part cables still seem to garner near-religious belief around here. If I felt more strongly about it and had more experience on that front, I'd start a poll thread on the subject.

Did you actually read this article because it doesn't support your claims about "cables." It deals with speaker wires, not interconnects and is pretty inconclusive about its topic. It notes the effects of wire guage. At the very least it supports the use of heavy guage wires for some speakers. It doesn't deal with issues of rejection of electrical noise which is what a lot of interconnects are about.

 

[Zuerst]

Quote:

Originally Posted by edstrelow Did you actually read this article because it doesn't support your claims about "cables." It deals with speaker wires, not interconnects and is pretty inconclusive about its topic. It notes the effects of wire guage. At the very least it supports the use of heavy guage wires for some speakers. It doesn't deal with issues of rejection of electrical noise which is what a lot of interconnects are about.

I don't think anyone knowledgable about how current conductions works will think that cables makes absolutely no differences.

I think the argument lies in the magnitude of difference. Sure really really ****** cables will be a bit different than reasonable cables. Really it is the out rageous profit margin that people is no pleased about. ie the difference between say a $50~$100 cable and a $10,000 one.

 

[facelvega]

Quote:

Originally Posted by edstrelow Did you actually read this article because it doesn't support your claims about "cables." It deals with speaker wires, not interconnects and is pretty inconclusive about its topic. It notes the effects of wire guage. At the very least it supports the use of heavy guage wires for some speakers. It doesn't deal with issues of rejection of electrical noise which is what a lot of interconnects are about.

Um, headphone cables ARE speaker wires and not interconnects. But you're right in that the article isn't about headphones. But did you actually read my post? To recap, I was arguing that headphone people tend to say one thing, that the rest of the hifi world says something else (or maybe we could say it just has a more active argument about this issue), and I gave an example of the side of that argument that I thought was missing here. As we've seen in the rest of this thread, maybe it isn't so missing after all.

I never actually said that I think cables don't matter, for the record. I just think they tend to be a great draw to the sellers of snake oil, and I'll even go so far as to say that they virtually don't matter, because the same expense can nearly always cause a far greater and more perceivable improvement in some other part of your system. Experimental ear surgery is likely to have a greater bang-for-the-dollar than a fine set of new cables. It would probably cost about the same.

I think the question includes speaker wire, interconnects, power cables, and headphone cables too. In a week or two we should see the results of a year-long Head-fi blind test of three sets of interconnects. Here are the threads:

http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=116203

http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=72890

 

[rodbac]

Quote:

I don't think anyone knowledgable about how current conductions works will think that cables makes absolutely no differences.

The point is that they don't make *any* audible difference once you have sufficient gauge, and every stock cable that has ever shipped with, say, a pair of Senn 600s is sufficient gauge.

IOW, going from 16 gauge to 12 gauge for your 20 foot headphone cable will look impressive and may last longer with chairs rolling over it, but 16 gauge wire presents a wide open autobahn for that audio signal.

Giving the signal even more room (larger gauge), or switching from copper to silver (to decrease the resistance a few millionths of an ohm) will *not* do anything audible to it.

It just isn't that hard a task to get an audio signal across a few feet of wire completely intact, and that seems to upset everybody who spent a lot of money on cables.

Present that around here, though, and the anecdotes about "dramatic, night and day differences" and "tighter bass" start rolling in all over again, as if there just isn't any long-standing explanation for what's going on...

 

[citroeniste]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfie Would you mind to explain that? Do you mean parametrically equalizing ?

If one or more of the devices under test is broken, i.e. has nonflat frequency response, then yes. That differences in FR outside certain tolerances can be heard is long established.

On nonbroken equipment, it means using a switcher (preamp, receiver, whatever) that allows you to adjust the individual input levels to very tight tolerances.

 

[nickchen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodbac It just isn't that hard a task to get an audio signal across a few feet of wire completely intact, and that seems to upset everybody who spent a lot of money on cables.

I haven't yet to read a phrase that brought this matter so close to its point.

 

[dux]

Quote:

Originally Posted by facelvega Whenever I reach a point like this in my hifi obsessiveness, I start to worry about the music I'm listening to instead. Did a couple of fantastic records just come out since I stopped reading reviews? Some remastered versions of old albums I love? And no matter what, there's sure to be massive realms of brilliant music I've never even heard of. Finding a new album that jumps instantly into your favorites will do more for your listening pleasure than a 2% jump in sound quality ever will. IMHO.

Right on! One's music collection is never complete...