[Chri5peed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif We had to install an emergency generator because we live at the end of the power line, deep in the countryside. I think the cabling to our house is made of wood or tin.

I guess wood is awesome. It transmits sound wonderfully, even in water!

A bit inflexible though? Do you need it carved to suit?

 

[kipman725]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikongod /img/forum/go_quote.gif rather than looking for better cables, why not look for worse ones to check your opinions? if a WORSE cable sounds worse, shouldnt a better one sound better? and if the worse cable dosnt sound worse, why participate in any of the cable games we play? i would reccomend you buy a stainless steel cable (senheisser hd-414 for example) it will plug straight into the hd-650. since cables dont do anything it should sound the same now, for why the sound CAN be improved when dealing with those wires: first off they are a high purity copper odds are good that they are better than most of what people plug into them. secondly, they are actually SIGNIFCANTLY longer than the cable from the headphone to the amp. Third, they are a solid core wire: most people arguments AGAINST solid wire center on the premise that they are fragile (which they are when exposed to the "human element") but in the case of a driver, or a contained unit (such as IN an amp) they are QUITE reliable, and sound better than most stranded ones. i would SERIOUSLY try out a stainless cable if you think cables dont do anything. some people (and they may be the lucky ones in all of this) dont hear a difference going from an average to better cable. the differences between copper and stainless is pretty significant, IMHO more than the differences from the stock senn cable to a mega-buck one...

already wire most of my electronics projects up with old telephone wire which definatly is not silver or copper and is probobly the stainless steel you are on about. Nothing weird happens with it even at much higher than audio frequancys. I have used it in oscilators working at 4mHz which have a perfect sinusoidal output as far as the noise floor of my osciloscope is concerned.

 

[Chri5peed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikongod /img/forum/go_quote.gif i would reccomend you buy a stainless steel cable (senheisser hd-414 for example) it will plug straight into the hd-650. since cables dont do anything it should sound the same

Theres a term, 'fit for purpose'. So, by your analogy, this steel cable is just about 'fit for purpose', but could be fitter.

No one is denying the existance of complete crap[like a wooden cable], its just that its thiought you reach a level and can't go beyond it.



SMbody:

 

[Stoney]

Pointless venting, on both sides.

Only answer that makes sense is: listen for yourself and judge.

It seems both extremes get into self-justifying points of view and circular logic.

On the one hand, the "weakest link" argument doesn't make technical sense. Cables are not just resistance in a conductor. They are capacitors, inductors, antennae, dielectrics, diodes, and all sorts of distributed (not lumped) parameters. So the EE 101 arguments are just uninformed, inexperienced.

On the other extreme are, for example, those that use silver wires to change the perceived spectral response and transient response. Perhaps I haven't tried enough products, but in the past, I haven't found silver cables to make better music, except in short runs of tiny signals like cartridge coils and tonearm leads. Perhaps in geometries I haven't tried.

I use bypass tests to see how cables sound. Not a perfect test, but the best available with reasonable effort. I don't want synergistic cables, I want neutral.

I've been able to hear differences in most every interconnect I've tried. Headphone cables, I have heard only about 6 or 8, plus some balanced systems. None sounded alike, and all made enough difference that I had a preference.

But, in absolute terms of value per dollar, it is secondary... but not irrelevant. What I wrote elsewhere was:

Quote:

I just reverted from my Cardas cables on my Senn HD650s back to stock, in preparation for shipping to Senn for servicing. First thing I noticed was how, in absolute terms, the difference was not large. On the other hand, longer term listening showed the upgrade to be worthwhile musically. So, if you have a headphone you want to live with because it is just right for your ears and system, but you want a bit more out of them, cables are worthwhile. Otherwise, if you aren't crazy about the phones, put that cost into better a headphone selection, at least in the case of Grados. (The HD650 is a bit of an exception in that it is worthy of cable, source, and amp upgrades.) Like my philosophy with cars: I put the money into a better car, rather than a lesser car with mods like wheels, shocks, and body kits. Spend as much as you can stock. It pays off in performance and in terms of resale. FWIW

There are two posters I expect to contradict me, as they tend to follow me around and write un-nuanced, absolutist statements that deny things they haven't apparently even tried to hear. Just you watch. It's kinda pitiful.

 

[tyre]

.

 

[DSlayerZX]

Just try it out, if you don't hear the difference, return the cable. End of Discussion.
I really don't understand all the fuzz that is going on in headfi now.
In most of the major audio forum in the other country (most of the chinese forum I been to), it is even hard to find a "does cable makes a difference thread"

the believer just have their own happy discussions. while the non believers.. well.. they just leave those threads alone

 

[Stoney]

Diode effects have been seen at grain boundaries. Hopefully, all decent cables do no have this metallurgical issue. But this is one reason for OFC, single-crystal, 99.9999%, and such specifications.

 

[maarek99]

Quote:

Originally Posted by QQQ /img/forum/go_quote.gif No time to explain in details, so i try to make it short. Since sound can be only as good as those tiny wires(pic) which connects the socket and the driver, what kind of improvement can ANY cable give? The chain are only as strong as it's weakest link(well i'm not saying those wires are weak link)...

Because cables change the impedance and that effects the frequency graph.

 

[b0dhi]

In case anyone missed it: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=265960

 

[Stoney]

Quote:

The chain are only as strong as it's weakest link(well i'm not saying those wires are weak link)...

Actually, not a good analogy. A better analogy is multiple panes of glass. If two are distorted or colored, and you improve one of the two, then the overall result improves.

Also, small doesn't imply bad sounding. Think of tonearm wires.

And, think of power conditioners. Or buffering circuitry in D/A conversion. These are examples of how something downstream can recover what was lost upstream. Not a direct analogy, but once you consider that this is AC, not DC (where the "chain" analogy comes from), you can see that perhaps a length of good cable might, for example, reject noise in the RF range that otherwise would get through and intermodulate.

Plus, things couple when you connect them, rather than just pass signals on as if links in a chain. They interact.

Just some things to help break the narrow view of "weakest link," which really doesn't apply as much as one might first think.

 

[AudioCats]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chri5peed /img/forum/go_quote.gif SMbody:

by the way, what exactly does SMbody mean? since the OP is also using this term.

 

[facelvega]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mastergill /img/forum/go_quote.gif Those tiny wires are from the voice coil, of course you can't change them and they are very short.

I'm amazed that now on the third page of responses, only this one line pointed out the obvious answer to the first post: that's the voice coil, man.

 

[ast]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoney /img/forum/go_quote.gif Pointless venting, on both sides. Only answer that makes sense is: listen for yourself and judge. ........

No, it doesn't.

When designing Clinical trials for new medicine, you MUST eliminate placebo effect, which is " try yourself and judge " type of effect you mentioned here. You think you HEAR some difference does NOT mean there IS any difference.


I'm getting several cables for HD650 to try it myself. Just curious whether these claims that the cables make big difference are true.

 

[Stoney]

ast retorted: Quote:

When designing Clinical trials for new medicine, you MUST eliminate placebo effect, which is " try yourself and judge " type of effect you mentioned here. You think you HEAR some difference does NOT mean there IS any difference.

You're talking to someone who develops medical devices for a living.

Your analogy is flawed in that one does not directly observe the relationship between a drug taken and any changes in symptoms being studied. But hearing reproduced music with your innate ability to distinguish real sounds is a direct observation, not a correlation. It does not require aggregation of statistics or placebo control, not when you are judging for your own purchase.

What I find it does require is to have a high threshold for when you think something sounds different. I deliberately assume the null hypothesis that something doesn't make a difference. Then, only if an observed change in character is consistent, repeatable at different volume levels, with different music, on different days, with trials done in different orders, will I gain confidence that perhaps the null hypothesis is false.

While this is not strictly "objective" (no music listening is or can be objective), it is "observational" and not merely "subjective."

It also benefits from using live unamplified music as a reference, or at least a reference system of such quality that you can tell when the sound is truer to timbre and texture and image, not just "more treble" or "less harsh."

While this won't prove anything to anyone else with a closed mind, I find it is entirely sufficient for my primary purpose: to decide what I want to own and listen to. So, yes, what matters is listening for yourself and making a value judgment.

Also, I have found that when I share reviews of what I observed over time, using varied and descriptive language, metaphors, and multiple examples, it enables others to confirm my observations, if their experimental setup allows for it to be detected, and if they are one of the 75-80% or so of us with normal hearing. A "good" review (in my definition) is one that is sufficient to allow others to assess whether they would enjoy it in their own systems, or even notice it. I don't write a review for others to be convinced to agree with me (good/bad)... I write it to point out what they might hear if they had the chance, and in what ways it might make a musically relevant difference in their systems. Like a Hitchcock enthusiast who reviews Vertigo well enough that you could tell it isn't your cup of tea.

This one learns over years, even decades. I've confirmed over 30 years that I'm not susceptible to placebo with sonic differences; but rather, I tend to overlook minor differences. On the other hand, if I see ants crawling on the table, suddenly I find myself getting itchy. THAT I'm suggestible about!

 

[ast]

if you think there is a difference, then it is good for YOU. You don't have to be convinced or to convince other people.

My analogy is not flawed. We are talking two subjects here: (1) perceived difference, which you are referring to (2) real difference, which I am talking about. They do not always match. Given the subtlty of claimed effect by cables, a double blind test is the ultimate way to decide no.2. While if you are living in no.1, then it doesn't matter.