Sluggish/slack sound, why?

[bigshot]

Why then buy a dedicated DAC for $20.000 if it does exactly what a iPhone DAC does?

Excellent question! When you figure out the answer, you will save yourself twenty grand!

DACs are manufactured and calibrated to perform to spec for digital audio. Since the spec is audibly transparent for human ears, if two DACs sound different, you can assume one is performing out of spec. A 20 grand transparent DAC sounds exactly the same as an 8 buck transparent Apple dongle.

And as Gregorio says, the exception is non oversampling DACs. Those are obsolete technology and don’t perform to spec.

 

[Avatar86]

Thanks for getting real
I too can comprehend that the market sells what the market buys (bullsh*t or not).

And this is a little bit what i’m aiming to critisize…

The best (tightest/snappyest) audio I’ve heared is from a MacBook Air, playing flac files through (something as unsexy as) Quick View (when you play the song directly in finder by pressing the play button on the file).

I’ve compaired MANY players! With the same base conditions (same music files, same headphones, same wires, sometimes same amp and DAC but differerent setups.

And this is realy one of the tightest.
A MackBook Air from 2014 = $100 and you can use it for so much more than just a DAP.

The absolute best was a all-in-one mediastreamer from CocktailAudio X40.
Super Tight! ($1400). Maybe because it was all in one unit, with it’s own custome made media player.

So I’m nit saying that you need expensive things to get tight sound, well suited for Chiptune/ Electro music.

In fact I bought and Astell & Kern AK70 mkII for $500… it was so disgustingly sluggish I couldn’t listen to chiptune on it!
But Nora Jones and symphonical music sounded beautiful and warm

As I am no software/hardware/sound or music engineer (I only have a 5 year music teacher degree from Gothenburg University), i don’t know why they sound sooo different.

Maybe ”instrument seperation” of the more expensive DACs/Media players makes the music open and detailed but comes at a stereo separation cost wich makes the digital electro/chiptune music sound out of sync?

I’m just guessing… there must be some explanations, as to what makes some mediaplayers sound tight and others out of sync.

 

[bigshot]

You are most likely hearing differences that don’t exist, or you’re attributing them to the wrong thing. Different headphones sound different. Different players generally don’t. If the headphones are the same, it could be the amping isn’t up to snuff. Warm sounds like an NOS DAC.

Your conclusion is likely wrong, but you’re throwing out so many undefined variables, it isn’t possible to point to where you’re going wrong.

 

[Avatar86]

YES!!!
This is might be it!!!
Phase, as G Mentioned.

I just unplugged ONE of the headphones of my HD650 and lo and behold, the music was as tight as ever!
- Like Mono!

Stereo separation and synchronisation! (Phase)
Some players might add stereo separation to apply the effect of a wider sound scape, selling it as a good thing!

But for playing back music that wants to be Exact, this just makes the music image out of sync and feel ”off”.

Thanks for this!!
It might not be all, but is certainly makes a lot of sense! Thanks

 

[gregorio]

The best (tightest/snappyest) audio I’ve heared is from a MacBook Air, playing flac files through (something as unsexy as) Quick View …

There’s no reason that should be the case. It shouldn’t be any more or less tight/snappy than countless other DACs/amps. Maybe the power/impedance is better suited to your headphones or it’s a perceptual illusion/error, these would be top of my list to check.

YES!!!
This is might be it!!!
Phase, as G Mentioned.

As I said, there would have to be a very serious fault with your system for phase to be the cause. The amount of phase error required is probably a million times (literally!) what you’d actually find from even cheap DACs.

I just unplugged ONE of the headphones of my HD650 and lo and behold, the music was as tight as ever!
- Like Mono!

You unplugged one side/earphone? If so, then that’s not “like mono”, it is mono, you are only hearing one channel, the earphone you didn’t unplug. Again, this indicates amp impedance/power or perceptual error would seem to be the most likely cause.

Some players might add stereo separation to apply the effect of a wider sound scape, selling it as a good thing!

There’s an old phase based effect called “shuffling” that could do that but I don’t recall seeing a player with a shuffler and can’t imagine one would be implemented as a default setting. Same with other more sophisticated spatial effects, such as binaural or surround emulation.

G

 

[Avatar86]

Thank you so much G for your in depth analysis of this problem I have.
You have a lot more knowledge around sound science than I.
I will have to read up on these factors as well, and proably ask more questions to more fully understand.

Hopefully I will find balance in my musical life

 

[PointyFox]

When an amp or DAC sounds different (excluding solid state vs. tube), the most likely causes are, in the order of most likely to least likely (in my opinion):

1. Volume mismatch. Whichever is louder will sound better, have more bass, and be punchier. This is the most common reason people highly rate DACs and amps. They play them louder.
2. Dirty/loose cables or contacts, and damaged cables. Can cause a lot of issues including a weak sound.
3. Impedance mismatch. Depending on the headphone and the amplifier, this can have different effects on the sound signature, such as a high amp output impedance making a Focal Clear super bassy.
4. Not enough power. Can cause either low volume or sound to be weak and "congested" sounding if the amplifier is pushed to clipping.
5. Poorly performing/broken equipment. Includes buzzing, humming, audible noise floor, audible distortion, etc.
6. Misconfiguration. E.g. using an NOS mode that requires at least 192 kbps with a lower bitrate.

 

[old tech]

When an amp or DAC sounds different (excluding solid state vs. analog), the most likely causes are, in the order of most likely to least likely (in my opinion):

1. Volume mismatch. Whichever is louder will sound better, have more bass, and be punchier. This is the most common reason people highly rate DACs and amps. They play them louder.
2. Dirty/loose cables or contacts, and damaged cables. Can cause a lot of issues including a weak sound.
3. Impedance mismatch. Depending on the headphone and the amplifier, this can have different effects on the sound signature, such as a high amp output impedance making a Focal Clear super bassy.
4. Not enough power. Can cause either low volume or sound to be weak and "congested" sounding if the amplifier is pushed to clipping.
5. Poorly performing/broken equipment. Includes buzzing, humming, audible noise floor, audible distortion, etc.
6. Misconfiguration. E.g. using an NOS mode that requires at least 192 kbps with a lower bitrate.

Agree but not sure what you mean by solid state vs analogue. I presume you meant solid state vs tube as most amps solid state and tube operate along analogue principles.

There are both solid state and tube digital computers (generally pre 1950s for the latter) but I digress.

 

[PointyFox]

Agree but not sure what you mean by solid state vs analogue. I presume you meant solid state vs tube as most amps solid state and tube operate along analogue principles.

There are both solid state and tube digital computers (generally pre 1950s for the latter) but I digress.

Oh yeah, meant tube, not analogue lol. Fixed it.

 

[AudioThief]

yeah it can easily get expensive if you don’t criticize the forces of marketing.

Different isn’t necessarily better

So guys like and @gregorio, @castleofargh and @bigshot really shattered my image of the "audiophile" hobby. Once I realized that my opinions on what gear sounded good was almost purely guided by biases and subjective preferences that had nothing to do with objective reality, I could finally relax and actually listen to music. Revisiting the hobby with the knowledge that its all just marketing mumbojumbo is borderline absurd.

 

[bigshot]

There is high fidelity, and it sounds great. It just isn’t terribly expensive.

 

[gregorio]

Revisiting the hobby with the knowledge that its all just marketing mumbojumbo is borderline absurd.

Agreed, and the more knowledge you gain about what’s actually going on, the more absurd you realise the marketing is. In many cases it’s not borderline absurd, it’s way over the borderline and completely bonkers! The way the audiophile marketers deal with this is to try and make sure audiophiles never understand what’s actually going on and to lie and discredit the actual facts/science if someone brings it up.

There is high fidelity, and it sounds great. It just isn’t terribly expensive.

I think we have to differentiate here. Sure, there are many devices/potential devices in the chain where audibly perfect fidelity is relatively cheap and spending more on supposedly audiophile/higher fidelity equivalents doesn’t actually get you any audibly higher fidelity. A $500 cable will not give you audibly higher fidelity than $50 cable and the same is broadly true of DACs, amps, Ethernet switches and all kinds of kit but that’s not always the case, HPs/Speakers are an obvious exception. Typically a $500 speaker will perform audibly better than a $50 speaker for example and really good performance/fidelity is fairly expensive.

That’s not to say the marketing for transducers is entirely honest of course, there’s still usually a fair amount of BS but the existence of audible fidelity differences between them is true.

G

 

[bigshot]

There was a study of headphones that rated them against the Harman Curve, and they found that there wasn’t a correlation between price and how close it came to the Harman target.

Speakers can be very expensive, but if you know what you’re doing, you can find real bargains second hand at thrift stores.

I find that I admire small efficient systems that nals a specific use more than a system that is expensive for the sake of it.

 

[gregorio]

There was a study of headphones that rated them against the Harman Curve, and they found that there wasn’t a correlation between price and how close it came to the Harman target.

I read that study some time ago but don’t remember the conditions. I’m pretty sure it’s possible to differentiate at least some expensive HPs from some very inexpensive ones.

Speakers can be very expensive, but if you know what you’re doing, you can find real bargains second hand at thrift stores.

I wasn’t talking about 2nd hand thrift stores, that’s obviously a different thing. You can buy a Rolls Royce for less than a Ford Fiesta, if you ignore prior ownership.

I’m not claiming that expensive transducers are always significantly better than much cheaper equivalents, just that they often/typically are. And, there are some examples in the “very expensive” range which perform no better than those in the “moderately expensive” range.

G

 

[bigshot]

Great sounding old style box speakers cost next to nothing at thrift stores, and they can sound as good as modern speakers that cost much, much more. People today are more concerned with size than sound. Sure if you spend a lot, you can get certain advantages like up to date features, small footprint and nice fit and finish. But if your consideration is sound quality, efficiency and low cost, and you are smart, you can put together a great sounding system, even the transducers for not a lot of money.

Also, there are other considerations besides sound quality... I have a portable system, complete with battery packs and powered speakers, that all fits in a side bag. It may not sound as good as my 5.1 system in my theater, but it's capable of providing musical pleasure anywhere anytime. It didn't cost a lot, but for its purpose, there's a lot of bang for the buck.