Six Moons letters
Oct 21, 2004 at 12:23 AM Post #46 of 137
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuberoller
I bet if he posted another letter saying he was wrong and all the stuff published in the first article was correct,you guys would take it as fact


Who's "you guys?" I think you're polarizing (and generalizing) again.

In case you weren't just being argumentative, no one is asking sixmoons to post what you're suggesting.
 
Oct 21, 2004 at 12:24 AM Post #47 of 137
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuberoller
I bet if he posted another letter saying he was wrong and all the stuff published in the first article was correct,you guys would take it as fact


Not necessarily. However, I can accept what Mikhail tells the writer of the article a lot faster than unknown "different and independent sources" that are mentioned in the letter. If someone does the testing using accepted standards in the industry and it is proven that Mikhail is wrong, that's one thing. Don't you think it is more reasonable to accept the statements of the manufacturer of a product and print a review then it is to accept the statements of "different and independent sources", whatever that is. Isn't this done in reviews published in all kinds of audio mags..
 
Oct 21, 2004 at 12:38 AM Post #48 of 137
What conclusion has the reviewer made in the letter (other than the amp sounds "extraordinary" and that there's controversy over the amp's topology)?

You guys are just being rediculous.
 
Oct 21, 2004 at 12:44 AM Post #50 of 137
It is my understanding that if Mikhail had not threatened lawsuits to those with objective evidence to back up these claims, this whole tempest would have been sorted out it public view long ago.

Since threats of lawsuits are being thrown around, I don't see how any constructive progress is going to be made in any of these threads, unless those with objective evidence are willing to stick their necks out and come forward.

Barring that, the only hope is for someone to post complete amp photos somewhere, and for a European or Asian Head-Fier with a good reputation to trace the circuit and proffer an honest interpretation. Presumably Mikhail does not have the resources or wherewithal to intimidate people across international borders.
 
Oct 21, 2004 at 1:08 AM Post #51 of 137
Obviously Sixmoons feels these un-named whistleblowers(if you know me you know I hate a Rat) are at least as credible as the Manufacturer. That has to mean something to somebody here. He felt the need,after seeing or hearing whatever it is he saw or heard,to write this letter and here we are.

This earlier post on Sixmoons might shed some light on what the writer saw or heard that changed his mind. The writer of the letter claims to have pics and schematics of some recently reviewed product.

link

text:





In the wake of a certain review, we have received the following disturbing e-mail (names and model numbers and specific terms withheld):



"Dear Mr. Ebaen,

I read your ... review of the xxx with great interest as I have been recently requested by an owner and my current employer to audition and otherwise verify the circuit of several xxx designs. I am educated as an Electrical and Mechanical Engineer specializing in and consulting for residential and commercial low voltage switching applications. I have been an audio enthusiast and hobbyist for some 36 years and find great pleasure in designing and building my own audio components, including loudspeakers, amplification and phonographic reproduction bits.

My current employer brought it to my attention that he suspected that the very latest xxx products were not, in fact, original designs. He stated with absolute certainty that earlier designs were exact copies of the xxx design which was published in the xxx. I was later able to verify this myself with a circuit analysis and comparison to the xxx circuit. As my employer had implicated, the xxx and xxx were copies. He was aware that the later products had undergone a "redesign" and was eager to verify that changes had been implemented which would render his suspicions valid or otherwise. He acquired the xxx, xxx and xxx with the sole purpose of disassembly and verification of the circuit designs.

Upon inspection of all three of these products, I found a very similar circuit to the one previously used. I am unaware that any agreement has been reached between the original circuit designer or the xxx and the principals at xxx for the use of this circuit. I feel it imperative that you be made aware of this fact and other factual errors in your posted review. xxx has specified that this design is xxx when it is, in fact, xxx and a very basic xxx design. The three units I inspected were all specified as having expensive circuit upgrades which were only present on the xxx. I will not venture to imply that there was theft involved but a close inspection revealed none of the $xxx worth of upgrades to the xxx and several hundred dollars more to the xxx model. My employer is currently searching for the claimed xxx mentioned in your review.

I would strongly encourage you to have a qualified engineer inspect the xxx provided to you for review to verify my claims. I can forward detailed pictures of the xxx I have inspected showing exact similarities between the xxx and xxx designs. I can also forward a schematic of all three designs detailing the xxx and xxx claims.

I feel it important to verify such information and hope you would take the time to authenticate and substantiate claims made by manufacturers of products you review. I look forward to your response and am available for telephone follow-up if needed."




The reason I call this letter disturbing isn't because of what it implies but that it should have been sent to us. Plainly, a court of law or arbitration service is the only proper institution to handle and attempt to settle any such disputes and insinuations. The sender of this letter should be ashamed for attempting to further his cause or the cause of his employer by getting us involved as innocent bystanders. We are a subjective audio review publication - that's it. We don't employ and pay for outside technical consultants. If we did -- and SoundStage! does with Bascom King as does Stereophile with their own in-house personnel -- we certainly wouldn't abuse the time and skills of our employees or contractors to serve an outside agenda that is unrelated to our job of rendering subjective performance judgment and educated value opinions on submitted hardware and software.


One would have thought this to be patently obvious, no? Alas, because of this letter and one prior incident that involved patent ownership claims in the wake of corporate management changes within a company that had dispatched review samples, we have just amended our Reminders To The Manufacturers essay with the following paragraph:

* Lastly, we do not get involved in copyright or patent disputes or hire outside engineers to analyze circuits. We rely on the manufacturers to provide us with information about their designs and how they work. We will always assume that once they dispatch a product under their brand name for a formal review, we're in receipt of their rightful design and physical product and thus always return products to the party which sent them. If other firms or individuals claim otherwise, by alleging ownership of the actual product or intellectual or brand name property rights, we will not become a forum for such disputes as has recently been attempted. That domain is for the lawyers and independent engineers who are specifically hired and handsomely paid to conduct any litigative or exploratory fact gathering missions. Only if we are presented with a legally settled court document that accords intellectual or physical ownership rights to a party other than what was stated in our review will we amend such review information to reflect this formally awarded judgment. However, we will not cancel or delete such reviews but merely amend the relevant information in a manner that let's the reader know about any changes, why we implemented them and what kind of proof we received to feel duty bound to make said changes.

Let me recapitulate this in completely unambiguous terms. We will not now or ever be drawn into any such disputes. We have neither the time, inclination nor responsibility (implied or assumed) to become arbitrators or participants in any kind of settlement between manufacturers or private parties. Any type of future attempts will result in a brief reply that directs the sender to the URL of this short statement. Any subsequent correspondences on the same issue will be regarded as junk mail and not at all responded to - period. Parties interested in public coverage of press releases or statements about pending, ongoing or awarded litigations, patents, allegations and associated matters already have access to proper outlets with those audio publications that run dedicated Press Room or News features. We do not. Additionally, we elect to restrict our selective industry features coverage to positive rather than negative aspects and stories about this little speciality industry we endeavor to be a constructive rather than destructive part of. Now where's my Port? I need to wash out a really bad taste in my mouth tooth-sweet. Cheers. Here's to the sunny side of life and great tunes!
 
Oct 21, 2004 at 1:16 AM Post #52 of 137
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuberoller
Obviously Sixmoons feels these un-named whistleblowers(if you know me you know I hate a Rat) are at least as credible as the Manufacturer. That has to mean something to somebody here. He felt the need,after seeing or hearing whatever it is he saw or heard,to write this letter and here we are.


Tube, this act is getting a little phony. Stirring the pot like this doesn't do anything useful in my mind, and it just encourages the people who believe this whole thing is a witchhunt.

Do you still own several Singlepower amps? Does angel_teres? Why doesn't either one of you post internal pictures? You know you're well within your rights to take pictures of things. You don't have to comment on those pictures, just take them. Let others be the judge based on what they see.
 
Oct 21, 2004 at 1:20 AM Post #53 of 137
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodgy
It is my understanding that if Mikhail had not threatened lawsuits to those with objective evidence to back up these claims, this whole tempest would have been sorted out it public view long ago.


Wodgy,

Stating Mikhail has threatened lawsuits is spreading another rumor. This claim is unfounded. Until there is factual evidence, please discontinue spreading rumors.

Quote:

Barring that, the only hope is for someone to post complete amp photos somewhere, and for a European or Asian Head-Fier with a good reputation to trace the circuit and proffer an honest interpretation.


Better yet, look at the photos already posted and think about what is plainfully obvious about the amplifier's design. It has a large transformer, power regulation and filtration, large output capacitors and employs 6GC7 or 6SN7 tubes. If you compare this to the Morgan Jones design on HeadWize you'll notice many obvious differences. The Singlepower amplifiers logically cannot be a direct copy of the Morgan Jones circuit. The Singlepower amplifiers could possibly be a similar (though much more complicated) design, but not a copy.

If you aren't good at discerning a schematic, here's another test to prove the Singlepower Audio amps are not the original Morgan Jones design: Can your Singlepower amplifier drive Grado Headphones? The original Morgan Jones design could not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taken from the Head-Wize article
The original Morgan Jones amplifier does not have enough current drive for low impedance headphones like the Grados


 
Oct 21, 2004 at 1:24 AM Post #54 of 137
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodgy
Tube, this act is getting a little phony. Stirring the pot like this doesn't do anything useful in my mind, and it just encourages the people who believe this whole thing is a witchhunt.

Do you still own several Singlepower amps? Does angel_teres? Why doesn't either one of you post internal pictures? You know you're well within your rights to take pictures of things. You don't have to comment on those pictures, just take them. Let others be the judge based on what they see.



Sure my act is phony. I set all this up and orchestrated this whole thing. You buy an amp and you post the pics. I don't want no part of this. If I post the pics somebody will claim they are doctored or I did something to the amps. Besides,this ain't important enough to me to risk anything important.


I've been the most vocal critic of this manufacturer's products and the most vocal advocate of another's. So without any other proof,I'm automatically guilty of some type of conspiracy. Me alone. That's rich. Did anyone consider that maybe I actually know what's happening here? That perhaps since I was the very first person to actively display these at a meet(and one of the very first owners) and really get a look inside these amps that maybe I saw something that was'nt kosher. Maybe that I was a bit bothered by all this,said something about it and was immediately shot down with the same old "conspiracy theory" stuff. What better way to silence the most vocal and informed critic than create a conflict of interest that will cloud anything that person has to say. Logic does'nt apply here. I don't sell anything.

How long did folks think it was gonna be before somebody posted pics? Extraordinary efforts to suppress the truth are always exposed as such and this is simply a case of this happening in a most dramatic fashion.
 
Oct 21, 2004 at 1:28 AM Post #55 of 137
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hajime
Stating Mikhail has threatened lawsuits is spreading another rumor. This claim is unfounded.


The claim is not unfounded. I have received a PM from one of the individuals in question, stating that these threats have indeed been made. Whether the individual who PMed me is telling the truth is impossible for me to know, but I will say that he has solid credentials and a good reputation.

Up to this point, Tuberoller as well as this other individual have claimed that lawsuit threats are being made. Mikhail has claimed that these threats are not being made. You be the judge of who's telling the truth.

Quote:

Better yet, look at the photos already posted and think about what is plainfully obvious about the amplifier's design. It has a large transformer, power regulation and filtration, large output capacitors and employs 6GC7 or 6SN7 tubes. If you compare this to the Morgan Jones design on HeadWize you'll notice many obvious differences. The Singlepower amplifiers logically cannot be a direct copy of the Morgan Jones circuit. The Singlepower amplifiers could possibly be a similar (though much more complicated) design, but not a copy.


From what I've heard, the power supply is alleged to be different. The actual circuit is alleged to be the same, save a couple of resistor values changes to suit the 6GC7 and 6SN7. All of these, including the Morgan Jones tubes, are similar dual triodes.

Quote:

If you aren't good at discerning a schematic, here's another test to prove the Singlepower Audio amps are not the original Morgan Jones design: Can your Singlepower amplifier drive Grado Headphones? The original Morgan Jones design could not.


The allegation, as I understand it, is that Mikhail has copied the Headwize optimized version of the Morgan Jones amplifier, which is indeed capable of driving Grados. I do not own a Singlepower amp, so I cannot ascertain whether this allegation is true.
 
Oct 21, 2004 at 1:30 AM Post #56 of 137
Tuberoller, I am not sure I understand your last post. If I reading what 6moons did correctly, and I may not be, it seems as if they broke their own rules by publishing the letter that started this thread in the first place. They say that they rely on the Manufacturer for the info. used in their reviews. It does not appear that they had any basis in fact to publish the original letter. So, I don't know if your purpose in the above post is to criticize 6moons or you are using it to bolster the theme of this and the other Singlepower thread. Sorry, it's just confusing to me.
 
Oct 21, 2004 at 1:37 AM Post #57 of 137
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuberoller
Sure my act is phony. I set all this up and orchestrated this whole thing. You buy an amp and you post the pics. I don't want no part of this. If I post the pics somebody will claim they are doctored or I did something to the amps. Besides,this ain't important enough to me to risk anything important.


Tube, I didn't mean to offend you. Thank you for editing your post and adding the excerpt from 6moons' liability page.
 
Oct 21, 2004 at 1:39 AM Post #58 of 137
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodgy
The claim is not unfounded. I have received a PM from one of the individuals in question, stating that these threats have indeed been made. Whether the individual who PMed me is telling the truth is impossible for me to know, but I will say that he has solid credentials and a good reputation.

Up to this point, Tuberoller as well as this other individual have claimed that lawsuit threats are being made. Mikhail has claimed that these threats are not being made. You be the judge of who's telling the truth.



The problem is that people are posting that others have told them that threats have been made. They are relying on what they say someone else said. In court that would be an example of double hearsay ( I know this is not a court). Mikhail has not posted in these threads that he didn't threaten lawsuits. He has remained silent in that regard, appropriately, I might add. If he did post it and I missed it. So all we can consider is what has been posted and whether it was appropriate to post it.
 
Oct 21, 2004 at 1:45 AM Post #59 of 137
Quote:

Originally Posted by Len
Yes, I fully agree. They really should be more careful. Read my post above.


I agree with you to a certain point. But if a manufacturer tells you it is this and does this, then naturally you assume the manufacturer will know for sure, seeming they built it. But I would like to give the benefit of doubt to both parties in this unpleasant affair. Next they will be a claim of something probably more worst than the last claim. Let's keep it real guys
 
Oct 21, 2004 at 1:46 AM Post #60 of 137
Quote:

Originally Posted by tyrion
Tuberoller, I am not sure I understand your last post. If I reading what 6moons did correctly, and I may not be, it seems as if they broke their own rules by publishing the letter that started this thread in the first place. They say that they rely on the Manufacturer for the info. used in their reviews. It does not appear that they had any basis in fact to publish the original letter. So, I don't know if your purpose in the above post is to criticize 6moons or you are using it to bolster the theme of this and the other Singlepower thread. Sorry, it's just confusing to me.


From what I can see reading that post which was first published on Sept 29,Sixmoons is stating this writer claimed some proof of what he was saying and Sixmoons doubted it. The later letter(posted today,I think),which states contact by other individuals,somehow cast doubt on the statements made in the initial review. I'm not trying to bolster,only clarify what looks to be more than one instance of Sixmoons being offered this "information". It just looks like there is more info surrounding this than we know about.

Considering all the supposed threats,I don't blame Sixmoons one bit for being kinda vague. They want to limit liability here too.
 

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